DOW up 936 points in one day!!! Capitalism is back!

[johnfm]

Well, what a day on the markets. I expect some well financed players have made HUGE amounts on the way down last week and on the way up today.

Amazing change in market confidence.

Viva capitalisme!

[EDLT]

It'll go down again and then settle somewhere in the middle.

[dtswiss]

Can someone explain this unit of measure "point". I see it everywhere where a political point is being made.

[deadslow]

Gordon Brown saves the world.

[Fittster]

Capitalism is back if every time it fks up the taxpayer clears up its mistakes.

[johnfm]

Fittster said:

Capitalism is back if every time it fks up the taxpayer clears up its mistakes.

I don't think the 'taxpayers' bought the millions of shared that changed hands on the Dow today

[Fittster]

johnfm said:

Fittster said:

Capitalism is back if every time it fks up the taxpayer clears up its mistakes.

I don't think the 'taxpayers' bought the millions of shared that changed hands on the Dow today

And how did confidence return if it wasn't on the back of taxpayers money?

Edited by Fittster on Monday 13th October 23:33

[johnfm]

not suggesting the market confidence is not due to multilateral government and central bank support - but msot of that support is in the form of guarantees - which are taxpayers 'promises', rather than taxpayers money.

Today's actual outlay on equity was £37 billion. I expect mr & mrs taxpayer will get a large majority of that back in chare price apprecitation down the line.

[grumbledoak]

Are the US tax-payers actually committed to paying anything to rescue their banks? Or it that just EU tax-payers? Some very big numbers were bandied about today, but all of them EU...

[RobDickinson]

dtswiss said:

Can someone explain this unit of measure "point". I see it everywhere where a political point is being made.

These Indexes are basicaly a measure of price of the shares listed in it.

The FTSE100 has 100 companies listed, I asume is something like all the share prices added up (mebe eighted somehow) then divided by 100 or something.

[elster]

Fittster said:

johnfm said:

Fittster said:

Capitalism is back if every time it fks up the taxpayer clears up its mistakes.

I don't think the 'taxpayers' bought the millions of shared that changed hands on the Dow today

And how did confidence return if it wasn't on the back of taxpayers money?

Edited by Fittster on Monday 13th October 23:33

There speaks a man who believes the media and Gordon Brown.

[Fittster]

johnfm said:

not suggesting the market confidence is not due to multilateral government and central bank support - but msot of that support is in the form of guarantees - which are taxpayers 'promises', rather than taxpayers money.

Today's actual outlay on equity was £37 billion. I expect mr & mrs taxpayer will get a large majority of that back in chare price apprecitation down the line.

Now I'm struggling to keep track, todays £37 billion was on top of yesterdays tens of billions.

£250bn guarantees on inter-bank lending
£85bn of Northern Rock's liabilities
£50 billion from Bradford & Bingley

So you slash interest rates and print up billions of pounds, that will get inflation ticking over.

Then you borrow billions, the interest on which will have to be met by higher taxes.

Mr and Mrs Average have been fked over with higher taxes and inflation.

You want Capitalism, try a bit of "Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate.... That will purge the rottenness out of the system. High costs of living and high living will come down. People will work harder, live a more moral life. Values will be adjusted, and enterprising people will pick up the wrecks from less competent people." Andrew Mellon

Seems capitalists rather like the state to me.

[bishbash]

RobDickinson said:

dtswiss said:

Can someone explain this unit of measure "point". I see it everywhere where a political point is being made.

These Indexes are basicaly a measure of price of the shares listed in it.

The FTSE100 has 100 companies listed, I asume is something like all the share prices added up (mebe eighted somehow) then divided by 100 or something.

Isn't a point a pound, therefore if 10 companies share prices all go up by 10p each then the market goes up by a point.

This could be complete bks but it was how it was explained to me by someone slightly more knowledgable on the subject than me

[ninja-lewis]

RobDickinson said:

dtswiss said:

Can someone explain this unit of measure "point". I see it everywhere where a political point is being made.

These Indexes are basicaly a measure of price of the shares listed in it.

The FTSE100 has 100 companies listed, I asume is something like all the share prices added up (mebe eighted somehow) then divided by 100 or something.

Not far off the mark. The actual calculation method is explained here in section 3.

[Fiddlemesticks]

Fittster said:

johnfm said:

not suggesting the market confidence is not due to multilateral government and central bank support - but msot of that support is in the form of guarantees - which are taxpayers 'promises', rather than taxpayers money.

Today's actual outlay on equity was £37 billion. I expect mr & mrs taxpayer will get a large majority of that back in chare price apprecitation down the line.

Now I'm struggling to keep track, todays £37 billion was on top of yesterdays tens of billions.

£250bn guarantees on inter-bank lending
£85bn of Northern Rock's liabilities
£50 billion from Bradford & Bingley

So you slash interest rates and print up billions of pounds, that will get inflation ticking over.

Then you borrow billions, the interest on which will have to be met by higher taxes.

Mr and Mrs Average have been fked over with higher taxes and inflation.

You want Capitalism, try a bit of "Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate.... That will purge the rottenness out of the system. High costs of living and high living will come down. People will work harder, live a more moral life. Values will be adjusted, and enterprising people will pick up the wrecks from less competent people." Andrew Mellon

Seems capitalists rather like the state to me.

City workers and investment firms also pay taxes, in addition to CGT and perhaps the odd bit of inheritance tax from the accumulated wealth on the death of a city worker. SO in other words some of that tax going back was paid by the city.


That quote is great if you are in the Khmer Rhouge.

The simple fact of the matter is that whether you like it or not the bail out has probably saved your job, your savings, your lifestyle and your financial future. You can blame all you like but the reality is that this is a global issue not just a city folk issue.

I dont hear you getting angry with americans who i am sure in some instances found it easier to default than to manage their own affairs.

[cardigankid]

johnfm said:

not suggesting the market confidence is not due to multilateral government and central bank support - but msot of that support is in the form of guarantees - which are taxpayers 'promises', rather than taxpayers money.

Today's actual outlay on equity was £37 billion. I expect mr & mrs taxpayer will get a large majority of that back in chare price apprecitation down the line.

Its a bounce. It was inevitable. If people made money on it good luck to them. But I'll bet you a pound to a penny some of the bailout money was in there too.

[ALawson]

I think the term is a Dead Cat Bounce

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/108600.html

[Fittster]

Fiddlemesticks said:

That quote is great if you are in the Khmer Rhouge.

The simple fact of the matter is that whether you like it or not the bail out has probably saved your job, your savings, your lifestyle and your financial future. You can blame all you like but the reality is that this is a global issue not just a city folk issue.

I dont hear you getting angry with americans who i am sure in some instances found it easier to default than to manage their own affairs.

I didn't blame the city but this is no triumph for capitalism.

I don't think people remember that capitalism creates winners and losers. The idea that the government can ensure there are never any drops in the market is ridiculous.

My jobs, savings, lifestyle and financial future aren't going to be improved by inflation, regulation and taxes. The idea that everything is now back to normal and there are no more consequences is flawed.

[siscar]

ALawson said:

I think the term is a Dead Cat Bounce

To quote the Today programme - it was a very frisky dead cat bounce

[johnfm]

Fittster said:

johnfm said:

not suggesting the market confidence is not due to multilateral government and central bank support - but msot of that support is in the form of guarantees - which are taxpayers 'promises', rather than taxpayers money.

Today's actual outlay on equity was £37 billion. I expect mr & mrs taxpayer will get a large majority of that back in chare price apprecitation down the line.

Now I'm struggling to keep track, todays £37 billion was on top of yesterdays tens of billions.

[b]£250bn guarantees on inter-bank lending
£85bn of Northern Rock's liabilities
£50 billion from Bradford & Bingley [/b]

So you slash interest rates and print up billions of pounds, that will get inflation ticking over.

Then you borrow billions, the interest on which will have to be met by higher taxes.

Mr and Mrs Average have been fked over with higher taxes and inflation.

You want Capitalism, try a bit of "Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate.... That will purge the rottenness out of the system. High costs of living and high living will come down. People will work harder, live a more moral life. Values will be adjusted, and enterprising people will pick up the wrecks from less competent people." Andrew Mellon

Seems capitalists rather like the state to me.

Remember these are guarantees - so not cash outlaid (yet).