Emploment law advice
Discussion
Firstly, apologies for the anonymous posting, but I can be identified through my usual profile which is not something I would want 
I'll also say that I am not after a freebie, and will be seeing a solicitor tomorrow to discuss my situation. I just wondered if anyone had been in a similar position and could offer any advice.
Long story short, my employer of just under 5 years yesterday terminated my employment with them, effective in 10 days time. I am currently on Gardening Leave. They have given me an offer "without prejudice" which equates to 4 months salary tax/ni free for me to walk away.
I was of manager grade, on a 3 month notice period. Had a few issues recently which (I thought) we were working through together (myself and my manager that is). Issues amounted to poor communication between us and my poor morale, but nothing major (I thought) and something that could easily be resolved.
Not sure if it's relevant, but I was a senior developer until 01/10/2008 when I was promoted to Team Leader. As the only Team Leader in the development side of the IT dept, I was aware this could make me a redundancy target.
Had an appraisal 6 months ago with was glowing, had another 3 weeks back where the above issues came to light. I now feel these issues were created in order to get me out.
What I want to know really is what people would do with respect to the offer? It will see me through for 6 months without work, but the market isn't fantastic (my background is as an ERP developer, moving into team lead), so I'm a bit concerned.
Are these offers generally negotiable? They are, after all, breaking the contract I have of 3 months notice. Although I'd prefer no notice and a nice lump sum! I'm also worried my legal fees will eat into the payout (company will pay the first £250 although I want to try to negotiate this).
Any thoughts or advice much appreciated.
Thanks for reading.
I'll also say that I am not after a freebie, and will be seeing a solicitor tomorrow to discuss my situation. I just wondered if anyone had been in a similar position and could offer any advice.
Long story short, my employer of just under 5 years yesterday terminated my employment with them, effective in 10 days time. I am currently on Gardening Leave. They have given me an offer "without prejudice" which equates to 4 months salary tax/ni free for me to walk away.
I was of manager grade, on a 3 month notice period. Had a few issues recently which (I thought) we were working through together (myself and my manager that is). Issues amounted to poor communication between us and my poor morale, but nothing major (I thought) and something that could easily be resolved.
Not sure if it's relevant, but I was a senior developer until 01/10/2008 when I was promoted to Team Leader. As the only Team Leader in the development side of the IT dept, I was aware this could make me a redundancy target.
Had an appraisal 6 months ago with was glowing, had another 3 weeks back where the above issues came to light. I now feel these issues were created in order to get me out.
What I want to know really is what people would do with respect to the offer? It will see me through for 6 months without work, but the market isn't fantastic (my background is as an ERP developer, moving into team lead), so I'm a bit concerned.
Are these offers generally negotiable? They are, after all, breaking the contract I have of 3 months notice. Although I'd prefer no notice and a nice lump sum! I'm also worried my legal fees will eat into the payout (company will pay the first £250 although I want to try to negotiate this).
Any thoughts or advice much appreciated.
Thanks for reading.
First thing to do is to sit down and write out a timeline of the incidents clearly stating who was involved, collate all your supporting information from e-mails to appraisal documentation etc. Get a copy of your terms and conditions and company policies that relate to you. This will help you in your meeting with solicitor.
Is the offer a redundancy payment or a compromise agreement? A 'friend' who was offered a compromise agreement had their employment lawyer negotiate the final figure.
Good luck with the outcome.
Is the offer a redundancy payment or a compromise agreement? A 'friend' who was offered a compromise agreement had their employment lawyer negotiate the final figure.
Good luck with the outcome.
RaeB said:
First thing to do is to sit down and write out a timeline of the incidents clearly stating who was involved, collate all your supporting information from e-mails to appraisal documentation etc. Get a copy of your terms and conditions and company policies that relate to you. This will help you in your meeting with solicitor.
Is the offer a redundancy payment or a compromise agreement? A 'friend' who was offered a compromise agreement had their employment lawyer negotiate the final figure.
Good luck with the outcome.
It's a compromise agreement.Is the offer a redundancy payment or a compromise agreement? A 'friend' who was offered a compromise agreement had their employment lawyer negotiate the final figure.
Good luck with the outcome.
Thanks for the advice - I am collating as we speak!
I'd be looking for any 'voluntary redundancy' offer to be in addition to your contractual notice period.
I'm pretty sure any compulsory redundancy would be in addition to your notice period. Statutory minimum should equate to 1.5 weeks per full year, capped at £330 per week.
I would suggest a reasonable VR offer would be 2x stat min, plus of course your contractual notice.
I'm pretty sure any compulsory redundancy would be in addition to your notice period. Statutory minimum should equate to 1.5 weeks per full year, capped at £330 per week.
I would suggest a reasonable VR offer would be 2x stat min, plus of course your contractual notice.
Jasandjules said:
What reason are they citing. For your redundancy?
About the best you could hope for in Tribunal if there is no discrim is about 6mths salary.
I asse they are also paying your legal fees wrt the comp agmt.
Apparently they don't feel I fit in with there plans for the department and are using the issues I stated above as the reasons. Despite them landing these "issues" on me out of the blue at my appraisal, and I've been working to resolve them with my manager, they feel this is sufficient grounds to terminate my employment.About the best you could hope for in Tribunal if there is no discrim is about 6mths salary.
I asse they are also paying your legal fees wrt the comp agmt.
They are currently only paying the first £250 legal fees
mel said:
All they're really offering is a months money to sod off, the 3 months they're contracted to give you and it would be tax free anyway, I'd push for 6 months money and go quietly with no lawyers involved.
That's currently my thinking but, having never been in this situation, wasn't sure if what they were offering was more or less generous than I should expect.Thanks for the feedback
You can't ask for redundancy unless the post is actually becoming redundant. This looks like you're being managed out, for whatever reason. You could mention to your lawyer that you feel as though your boss thinks that your face doesn't fit anymore and that he's constructed these events to allow him to fire you (a constructive dismissal). If you have felt unsupported or victimised by your empoyer this can be regarded as constructive dismissal and you might argue for a bit more money to sign the comprimise agreement.
Their defence may be that you breached your contract and they were offering a dignified exit for you...your lawyer will have tons of examples. Does your employer usually take people through tribunals (I know that we go right to the door but crumble and write cheques unless we are 100% sure of winning)...
Their defence may be that you breached your contract and they were offering a dignified exit for you...your lawyer will have tons of examples. Does your employer usually take people through tribunals (I know that we go right to the door but crumble and write cheques unless we are 100% sure of winning)...
Edited by Windsorphil on Thursday 25th September 11:55
just be sure about the tax situation around 'redundancy' pay, as you can't mask PILON as redundancy pay and have it tax free.
They also need to follow a stat D&G procedure to remove you through underperformance, which it would appear they have not. This would make any dismissal automatically unfair.
There is also no longer such a thing as 'without prejudice' discussion as they are in a privileged position as the employer.
If they taking a redundancy route they need to disclose the process followed to select those under threat and those slected for redundancy. Inconsistencies in this will also push towards an unfair dismissal case.
Ensure you have all documented details leading up to this, all actions taken by both parties and use as leverage to challenge and negotiate a higher settlement.
Ultimately the company want you out, so their is no long term future there. Get the best deal you can, get it packaged as redundancy, and move on.
Unless you are female, disabled or an ethnic minority it's very hard to get a major settlement through the ET. So bargain with them for notice plus 3 months redunancy, would be my advice
They also need to follow a stat D&G procedure to remove you through underperformance, which it would appear they have not. This would make any dismissal automatically unfair.
There is also no longer such a thing as 'without prejudice' discussion as they are in a privileged position as the employer.
If they taking a redundancy route they need to disclose the process followed to select those under threat and those slected for redundancy. Inconsistencies in this will also push towards an unfair dismissal case.
Ensure you have all documented details leading up to this, all actions taken by both parties and use as leverage to challenge and negotiate a higher settlement.
Ultimately the company want you out, so their is no long term future there. Get the best deal you can, get it packaged as redundancy, and move on.
Unless you are female, disabled or an ethnic minority it's very hard to get a major settlement through the ET. So bargain with them for notice plus 3 months redunancy, would be my advice
This happened to me earlier this year and here are a few pointers I got from my lawyer & the whole experience:
1. If they want to get rid of you, then they will by hook or by crook - make sure they pay you for going!
2. In the calculation of your package, don't forget pension, car, shares, healthcare, bonus etc etc incl untaken holiday that you are owed for the entire duration of your PILON period. Your salary can only be a small part of what you are owed.
3. They need to make a deal as much as you do - as they know that things could get nasty/expensive - so don't take their first offer. Make sure you have a justifiably large counter offer prepared and then negotiate - hard! Don't forget that there needs to be compensation element for "loss of position" that should reflect the difficulty you may have in getting a job of similar standing in the current climate. This will be stressful. I managed to get over double the initial offer out of my employer....
3. Make sure you build in enhanced legal fees in to the package. Mine were well over a grand but worth every single penny.
4. Get your lawyer to look over the compromise agreement. I was working for a FTSE 10 company and their agreement had a number of clauses that were unrealistic/impossible/unreasonable.
5. The agreement MUST say redundancy otherwise you may have real difficulty getting another job. You must also be a "good" leaver if you have sharesave schemes etc.
If you need a recommendation for someone to engage, then send me a PM...
Good luck!
Glen
1. If they want to get rid of you, then they will by hook or by crook - make sure they pay you for going!
2. In the calculation of your package, don't forget pension, car, shares, healthcare, bonus etc etc incl untaken holiday that you are owed for the entire duration of your PILON period. Your salary can only be a small part of what you are owed.
3. They need to make a deal as much as you do - as they know that things could get nasty/expensive - so don't take their first offer. Make sure you have a justifiably large counter offer prepared and then negotiate - hard! Don't forget that there needs to be compensation element for "loss of position" that should reflect the difficulty you may have in getting a job of similar standing in the current climate. This will be stressful. I managed to get over double the initial offer out of my employer....
3. Make sure you build in enhanced legal fees in to the package. Mine were well over a grand but worth every single penny.
4. Get your lawyer to look over the compromise agreement. I was working for a FTSE 10 company and their agreement had a number of clauses that were unrealistic/impossible/unreasonable.
5. The agreement MUST say redundancy otherwise you may have real difficulty getting another job. You must also be a "good" leaver if you have sharesave schemes etc.
If you need a recommendation for someone to engage, then send me a PM...
Good luck!
Glen
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