Recommendation for a small Yacht
Discussion
Hi All..first post over in the boating forum...
I have been a keen dinghy sailor for a few years now and am looking move up to a small yacht for crusing with the family and possibly some racing. I have been looking at a couple of different designs around 24 feet and between £4-10K, westerley GK24 for example.
I was wondering if anyone has any experience sailing this sort of size boat and could recommend a particular design.
Many Thanks,
James
I have been a keen dinghy sailor for a few years now and am looking move up to a small yacht for crusing with the family and possibly some racing. I have been looking at a couple of different designs around 24 feet and between £4-10K, westerley GK24 for example.
I was wondering if anyone has any experience sailing this sort of size boat and could recommend a particular design.
Many Thanks,
James
jamesrose said:
westerley GK24 for example.
Mate at our club has one of these "The Mighty Slingshot"think he has a PY handicap of 78 so just a little behind a J24 in performance.
He uses his mostly for round the cans club racing and generally sails single handed.
He always seems to place well, and he always has that relaxed "beer glaze" when he comes ashore to join in the BBQ, so i would say that the boat works for him.
No idea on coast hopping one of these UK style, as where we are means that to get to anywhere else interesting is looking at a 24 hour offshore passage. We have done several of these trips in similar boats but usually as a flotilla and with a hotel resrervation on arrival!!
Lots of fun for minimal outlay, and if you keep ontop of problems very cheap to run!
Edited by XJSJohn on Monday 15th September 05:31
I'd have a chat with a yacht broker if I were you. Most of them are extremely knowlegeable and will point you in the right direction. Most sailors tend to know what's good and what's not so good as well and this is usually reflected in asking prices for second hand yachts.
There's an enormous variation in similar sized boat performance and considering where and what type of sailing you will be doing is the best way of deciding which boat to buy IMO. Not only do you have to consider outright performance but where you'll keep it, what the accomodation is like, and how many people you'll sail with - don't assume that because there's four berths for example there's room for four big blokes on a long weekend cruise.
Given reasonably calm conditions my 20 foot bilge keeler will usually run rings round larger boats both in hullspeed and passage times, but that's only because I work the tides, use all the shortcuts and gutways through the Thames estuary - which most bigger boats avoid - and sail it like a racing dingy. I let the crew get on with helming and am constantly trimming sails, reacting to windshifts, and use the spinnaker whenever I can. That's the sort of intense, efficient sailing I enjoy but it's not for everyone.
A lot of sailors sail for precicely the opposite reason - to relax and get away from the challenge of maximising performance in other aspect of their lives.
Might be best to have a think about how you want to start cruising and what you want out of it then find a boat that suits. There's usually a big difference between asking price and what the boat actually sells for too so you might get - espeially at the end of the season and with the downturn in the economy - a real bargain.
There's an enormous variation in similar sized boat performance and considering where and what type of sailing you will be doing is the best way of deciding which boat to buy IMO. Not only do you have to consider outright performance but where you'll keep it, what the accomodation is like, and how many people you'll sail with - don't assume that because there's four berths for example there's room for four big blokes on a long weekend cruise.
Given reasonably calm conditions my 20 foot bilge keeler will usually run rings round larger boats both in hullspeed and passage times, but that's only because I work the tides, use all the shortcuts and gutways through the Thames estuary - which most bigger boats avoid - and sail it like a racing dingy. I let the crew get on with helming and am constantly trimming sails, reacting to windshifts, and use the spinnaker whenever I can. That's the sort of intense, efficient sailing I enjoy but it's not for everyone.
A lot of sailors sail for precicely the opposite reason - to relax and get away from the challenge of maximising performance in other aspect of their lives.
Might be best to have a think about how you want to start cruising and what you want out of it then find a boat that suits. There's usually a big difference between asking price and what the boat actually sells for too so you might get - espeially at the end of the season and with the downturn in the economy - a real bargain.
Actually, Jaguar Steve raises a valid point (although he may not be aware of this .... 
)
What do you hope to gain??
You are from dinghies so ....
Fast Racing?
Club Racing?
To be able to drink a beer in comfort whilst racing?
to go cruising?
to go exploring?
to just muck about on boats?
Steve refers to his boat as a bilge keel, which (for example) you will not want for competitive racing (from the dinghy past), but for exploring, mucking about, fisiting shallow / drying spots, can't beat them!
)What do you hope to gain??
You are from dinghies so ....
Fast Racing?
Club Racing?
To be able to drink a beer in comfort whilst racing?
to go cruising?
to go exploring?
to just muck about on boats?
Steve refers to his boat as a bilge keel, which (for example) you will not want for competitive racing (from the dinghy past), but for exploring, mucking about, fisiting shallow / drying spots, can't beat them!
I'm not usually aware of much this time of the morning...
Forgot to mention another aspects of cruising yacht ownership, gained from experience is what sort of weather are you prepared to sail in? You may not mind going out in poor weather with an improving forecast and getting wet, cold and a bit scared somtimes, but will anybody else you sail with want to as well? If they don't then unless you go on your own you're reduced to being a fair weather sailor meaning that taking this summer and 2007 as an example you won't be getting out much.
If you keep a 20' boat in a marina it'll cost you at least £1500 a year. Another couple of hundred for insurance, £500 or so for the annual lift out, antifoul and relaunch, money for replacment sails, engine maintainence and the inevitable odds and ends. It all adds up. If you don't use your boat much it would be cheaper - as Mrs JS
likes to remind me - to spend the same number of days and night you go sailing in a very expensive hotel instead.
If you go on much cheaper swinging mooring if you can get one, and not in a marina - unless its a deep water one like mine - you will not be able to buy a 6' draught fin keel high performance yacht because it will fall over every time the tide goes out
Forgot to mention another aspects of cruising yacht ownership, gained from experience is what sort of weather are you prepared to sail in? You may not mind going out in poor weather with an improving forecast and getting wet, cold and a bit scared somtimes, but will anybody else you sail with want to as well? If they don't then unless you go on your own you're reduced to being a fair weather sailor meaning that taking this summer and 2007 as an example you won't be getting out much.
If you keep a 20' boat in a marina it'll cost you at least £1500 a year. Another couple of hundred for insurance, £500 or so for the annual lift out, antifoul and relaunch, money for replacment sails, engine maintainence and the inevitable odds and ends. It all adds up. If you don't use your boat much it would be cheaper - as Mrs JS
likes to remind me - to spend the same number of days and night you go sailing in a very expensive hotel instead.If you go on much cheaper swinging mooring if you can get one, and not in a marina - unless its a deep water one like mine
- you will not be able to buy a 6' draught fin keel high performance yacht because it will fall over every time the tide goes out There are loads of possible yachts around this size (J24, J80, GK24, Hunter Sonata, Hunter impala, Hunter 707, Tripp 26, Laser 5000, folkboat, Cork 1720, Melges 24, First Class 8, old 1/4 tonners etc, etc, etc), but it really really depends on what you want to do with it.
Give us a bit more insight into what the boat is going to spend the majority of its life doing and where it will be doing it & we'll be able to narrow the field down a little bit more.
Give us a bit more insight into what the boat is going to spend the majority of its life doing and where it will be doing it & we'll be able to narrow the field down a little bit more.
Edited by schmalex on Monday 15th September 15:42
Thanks guys, some interesting points raised there..
The main reason for getting a small yacht is to try to keep my hobbies and my girlfriend happy
by involving her...a tough combination.
The idea I had was basically to get something that I could spend a year or two learning to sail well with the other half (a complete novice), which wouldn't involve her taking regular dunkings as dinghy sailing would. Starting off cruising aroung the blackwater estuary and some coastal sailing with a view to racing when we are ready.
I would need something that could be handled by 2 people in reasonable conditions to start with, but could take 4 adults for a days sailing. I would aim to keep the yacht in a marina and would prefer a sportier boat that would make a reasonable racer rather than an out and out cruiser.
I have been looking at Hunter Sonatas and there seem to be some good boats for the money ?
I hope this has makes things a little clearer !
Cheers,
James
The main reason for getting a small yacht is to try to keep my hobbies and my girlfriend happy
by involving her...a tough combination.
The idea I had was basically to get something that I could spend a year or two learning to sail well with the other half (a complete novice), which wouldn't involve her taking regular dunkings as dinghy sailing would. Starting off cruising aroung the blackwater estuary and some coastal sailing with a view to racing when we are ready.
I would need something that could be handled by 2 people in reasonable conditions to start with, but could take 4 adults for a days sailing. I would aim to keep the yacht in a marina and would prefer a sportier boat that would make a reasonable racer rather than an out and out cruiser.
I have been looking at Hunter Sonatas and there seem to be some good boats for the money ?
I hope this has makes things a little clearer !
Cheers,
James
Edited by jamesrose on Monday 15th September 17:54
So I guess you are looking at something fairly stiff & controlable so that you don;t put the GF off! That rules out quite a few in my list!
I would say you might want to have a look at any of the following:
You could scare her into submission & go for a Melges 24 - she may never talk to you again, but it will be worth it for the feeling when it powers up in a breeze!
If I were you, of those, my preferences would be (in order).
1: Sonata
2: J80
3: GK24
However, bear in mind that I only race & don't like cruising!
HTH
I would say you might want to have a look at any of the following:
- Hunter Impala. They are great boats. Very capable, can be very competitive & I know of a few that used to be raced offshore in RORC & JOG. Based on a smoothed off 1/4 ton design, so have good hull form
- Hunter Sonata. Very good inshore boats. I used to race one in between big boat races for a laugh & the fleets are really competitive. Still very dinghy-esque in their handling, so you will feel comfortable chucking one around & will be able to spend more time teaching your GF. They are good in a breeze - we had 35kts across the deck in the Sonata nationals a few years ago & she handled the breeze with no problems at all. They are tweeky little boats, so it will probably take you a little while to get the last Nth out of the boat - a good thing!
- Folkboat. More of an inshore / coastal water boat, but there are many excellent fleets around the UK, so you will get some good one design racing. Downsides are: no guard wires, so your GF might feel a little exposed. Can roll a little down hill due to the long keel
- GK24 / GK29. Cracking little boats, although getting pretty old now, so check them over thoroughly
- J80's might be worth a look as an entry to Asymetric boats. They are pretty light & tweeky though. Their more modern hull form will make them pretty stable downhill, but they are more like a big dinghy than a small yacht.
You could scare her into submission & go for a Melges 24 - she may never talk to you again, but it will be worth it for the feeling when it powers up in a breeze!
If I were you, of those, my preferences would be (in order).
1: Sonata
2: J80
3: GK24
However, bear in mind that I only race & don't like cruising!
HTH
Edited by schmalex on Tuesday 16th September 10:35
My wife and I are both experienced dinghy sailors (seriously raced RS800's) but when our baby arrived we moved on to a Sonata. Our son came out with us at 5 weeks old and has been sailing ever since.
We both raced on Sonata's as kids, so loved them. They are a good cross between a dinghy and a yacht, as they are stable,but you get some feel and weight movement has some influence. We have had ours for three years have used it to work out the sort of sailing we enjoy and practise things.
Today they are pretty cheap, our is now for saile for £6k (incl trailer) , we will be sorry to see her go and we love our "blue booat" as our son calls her.
You can see her here, to give you a feel what they are like down below and equipment wise.
http://www.boatshed.com/hunter_sonata-boat-55566.h...
Its well worth visting the Sonata class association website, www.sonata.org.uk as it has loads of info and the members are knowledgeable and passionate about the boats.
Good luck in your searh, PM me if you want to know more about Sonata's
R
We both raced on Sonata's as kids, so loved them. They are a good cross between a dinghy and a yacht, as they are stable,but you get some feel and weight movement has some influence. We have had ours for three years have used it to work out the sort of sailing we enjoy and practise things.
Today they are pretty cheap, our is now for saile for £6k (incl trailer) , we will be sorry to see her go and we love our "blue booat" as our son calls her.
You can see her here, to give you a feel what they are like down below and equipment wise.
http://www.boatshed.com/hunter_sonata-boat-55566.h...
Its well worth visting the Sonata class association website, www.sonata.org.uk as it has loads of info and the members are knowledgeable and passionate about the boats.
Good luck in your searh, PM me if you want to know more about Sonata's
R
If you like the Hunter Sonata but want a bit more of a cruising yacht then a Hunter Horizon 23, which IIRC is the same hull but with a bigger cabin, might be worth looking at. There's a young guy - don't know his name - working in the Yacht brokers at Burnham marina who seems to know all the pros and cons of different yacht designs. Might be worth having a chat with him to see if he can give you any ideas.
As you're on the Blackwater and planning to do some cruising on the east coast then a bilge keel boat with good performance might be the answer. I know they struggle a bit to windward compared to a similar fin or lift keel boat but a good design like the 23 sailed well is OK IMO. There's so many creeks and rivers on the east coast that the compromise of a bilge keel boats performance and the cheap accessability of drying morings and the ability to happily go where fin keelers would not even try to attempt is worth it if you're into cruising.
Have a look at the Jaguar 24 and Horizon 23, as examples of cruising boats with good performance - I'm sure there's others too but these are popular on the east coast so finding a good one should'nt be too hard.
Perhaps more importantly with a smaller boat in the Estuary is they all suffer when you get the wind over tide chop that is so common when anything more than a breeze springs up - but some seem much better able to cope than others - so it might be worth talking to some owners about how they get on in less than ideal conditions. My 20' bilge keeler goes really well for it's size in reasonably calm conditions but is horrible when the wind drops after a blow leaving the choppy confused sea you get with a 2kt tide running.
As you're on the Blackwater and planning to do some cruising on the east coast then a bilge keel boat with good performance might be the answer. I know they struggle a bit to windward compared to a similar fin or lift keel boat but a good design like the 23 sailed well is OK IMO. There's so many creeks and rivers on the east coast that the compromise of a bilge keel boats performance and the cheap accessability of drying morings and the ability to happily go where fin keelers would not even try to attempt is worth it if you're into cruising.
Have a look at the Jaguar 24 and Horizon 23, as examples of cruising boats with good performance - I'm sure there's others too but these are popular on the east coast so finding a good one should'nt be too hard.
Perhaps more importantly with a smaller boat in the Estuary is they all suffer when you get the wind over tide chop that is so common when anything more than a breeze springs up - but some seem much better able to cope than others - so it might be worth talking to some owners about how they get on in less than ideal conditions. My 20' bilge keeler goes really well for it's size in reasonably calm conditions but is horrible when the wind drops after a blow leaving the choppy confused sea you get with a 2kt tide running.
Well a Sonata is a great wee boat built raced and cruised one of them quite a few years ago however i have a Robber 3E for sale and it is on a road trailer you will need a big 4x4 to tow her with though i towed it with a Volvo 945 TDic. This Robber 3E is just a wee bit bigger (lots really) than the Sonata it is sitting in my drive and needs to go soon it would make a great coastal cruiser racer i am looking for £3,500 or thereabouts pictures and more details available. I am posting here after being bullied by my son who was National Sonata champion at six weeks a few eons ago.
kindest regards
David
kindest regards
David
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