Discussion
Good point about the flow of fluids in an inverted position. Even Spitfires have their Merlins cut out when upside down.
What I'd like to know is, with the current fairly severe aerodynamic restrictions applied to F1 cars, do they generate more or less downforce than the unfettered ground effects cars of 1979/80?
What I'd like to know is, with the current fairly severe aerodynamic restrictions applied to F1 cars, do they generate more or less downforce than the unfettered ground effects cars of 1979/80?
eric mc said:
Good point about the flow of fluids in an inverted position. Even Spitfires have their Merlins cut out when upside down.
What I'd like to know is, with the current fairly severe aerodynamic restrictions applied to F1 cars, do they generate more or less downforce than the unfettered ground effects cars of 1979/80?
More, far more. Aerodynamic theory and it's application in F1 has moved on far enough that a modern diffuser which works on the same principle as the old ground effect cars but is limited to starting from the rear axle produces around the same downforce as the full length venturis of the 80s I believe.
You then have the far more advanced wings and the fact that the bodies themselves now create downforce as well.
That said, as a principle, ground effect is still far more effective than anything in use today and, if applied with modern understanding and the benefits of active suspension to keep the cars pitch and roll neutral, the potential downforce is HUGE!
No precise figures I'm afraid but, from memory (did a physics project on F1 aerodynamics for secondary school physics) the ground effect cars could produce around 1.5 times their own weight (~700kg?) and modern F1 cars can produce around 2.5 times their own weight (600kg), flat out (not sure where you got the figure of 5x from TeGriffic?). The diffuser accounts for around 35% of a modern cars total downforce so, it's roughly about 550kg(?) from a modern diffuser and around 1050kg from a ground effect car?
Which would mean I was some way off in my earlier comment but, that's what you get for making these rash comments!
Which would mean I was some way off in my earlier comment but, that's what you get for making these rash comments!
I think its a fair bit more than 2.5 times their own weight. I read a couple of years ago that a modern F1 car produces around 3.5 tonnes of downforce at 200mph. Given that a modern F1 car weighs 600kg ish, thats about 4.5-5 times their own weight in downforce. Still nowhere near the late 80's early 90s Group C/GTP cars. They had ridiculous levels of downforce. Something like 10,000 lbs (6 tonnes?) of downforce is what I've seen quoted for the Nissan GTP car
If a wing on an F1 car generates downforce if it is running upside down on a ceiling as the original post asks it would stick it to the ceiling and it wouldn't drop down or take off as the ceiling would stop it. If the car was upside down with n ceiling then yes it would go up.
I've had half a bottle a wine ao far and I know what I'm saying, what's your excuse
I've had half a bottle a wine ao far and I know what I'm saying, what's your excuse
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