Should I have avoided this garage?
Discussion
Since buying my 1988 TVR nearly three years ago I have had the car regularly serviced and professionally maintained and have not experienced any difficulties until now. On the 9 May 2008 I took my S1 to a well known TVR garage in the North of England for a service and MOT. Prior to this the car had been used most weekends and had been running well. However, three days before delivering the car to the garage it experienced a sudden loss of power and could only achieve a maximum of 50mph with much coaxing. Despite this I delivered the car to the garage as arranged.
Several days later I was informed by the garage that the gasket on the throttle body housing had blown and this was the cause of the loss of power. The car had also failed its’ MOT as there was play in track rod ends, the front springs needed replacing, there were problems with the wiring to the o/s headlight and rear cluster and a small welding job was needed.
Some time later I spoke to the garage to check on progress and they informed me that it wasn’t the T/R ends after all but that it was the steering rack itself that needed refurbishing. (I must admit that I had been a little surprised that the T/R ends needed replacing as these had been replaced on the 31 May 2006.) The garage also informed me that the they would have to send the s/rack away for refurbishing. By this time it getting towards the end of May.
In June I was told that they had received the s/rack back, that the other work had been done and the car was to be re-tested. So I was looking forward to getting the car back.
Towards the end of June and two days before I had arranged to pick the car up I spoke to the garage again to be told that the car had now developed a new fault and was misfiring. Clearly I was not happy with this as the garage had now had the car for several weeks and I was being told it wasn’t ready to be picked up. I was also unhappy as, although there had been a sudden loss of power, the car certainly did not have a misfiring problem before it went in for it’s service.
Since then I have spoken to the garage a number of times and I have been told, on each occasion, of the various jobs they had done on the car to try to rectify the misfire but that it was still misfiring. Among others, these jobs have included a new coil, new fuel filter, new plugs, new HT leads and replacing faulty wiring. By then the bill was racking up and the garage had kept the car for two months. I was therefore very unhappy and demanded that the car be sorted as I was coming to pick it up on the 12 July 2008.
On the 12 July I arrived at the garage to find a mechanic under the bonnet and was told that the car was still misfiring and that now it was either a sticking plenum chamber diaphragm or a faulty ignition box causing the problem. The car was then started up and it was clear that it would not even drive off the premises let alone get me home as the misfire was so bad. The mechanic advised me that, having checked everything else including the fuel supply, he had found that the plugs were coked up as the fuel mixture was too rich and that it was probably the plenum chamber causing the problem. He was therefore proposing to take out the plenum chamber and would send it away for checking and repair. I was told that he would start the job on Monday, that it would take 10 working days and I would then have the car back.
So nine working days later on the 24 July I telephoned the garage again and have now been told that it wasn’t the plenum chamber after all but that there is a problem with the fuel injectors, that they had sent away for new injectors and, if the parts were delivered the next day, would be fitted then and I may get the car back on the Saturday 26 July.
So on the 25 July I telephone again to make sure the car was ready. However, wouldn’t you know it, I was now informed that the mechanic had now found a white emulsion-like substance in the bottom of the fuel tank and that this was contaminating the fuel. In addition the pressures were “all over the place” in the injectors and that they were working on the car but, surprise surprise, the car would not be ready after all!
So what am I to do? I don’t regard myself as a mug but somehow I think that the p**s is being taken. It seems to me that if a garage regards itself as a TVR garage then they should know what they are doing and would have rectified the problem long before now. It seems to me that I should expect a better service than this. I accept old cars need TLC, that they are prone to problems and things do go wrong but it is now 11 weeks later and the car is still not ready. On the 9 August they will have had the car for three months. It sounds as if the garage is trying to steadily work its’ way through every component under the bonnet - and at some cost to me. Does anyone have any advice?
Several days later I was informed by the garage that the gasket on the throttle body housing had blown and this was the cause of the loss of power. The car had also failed its’ MOT as there was play in track rod ends, the front springs needed replacing, there were problems with the wiring to the o/s headlight and rear cluster and a small welding job was needed.
Some time later I spoke to the garage to check on progress and they informed me that it wasn’t the T/R ends after all but that it was the steering rack itself that needed refurbishing. (I must admit that I had been a little surprised that the T/R ends needed replacing as these had been replaced on the 31 May 2006.) The garage also informed me that the they would have to send the s/rack away for refurbishing. By this time it getting towards the end of May.
In June I was told that they had received the s/rack back, that the other work had been done and the car was to be re-tested. So I was looking forward to getting the car back.
Towards the end of June and two days before I had arranged to pick the car up I spoke to the garage again to be told that the car had now developed a new fault and was misfiring. Clearly I was not happy with this as the garage had now had the car for several weeks and I was being told it wasn’t ready to be picked up. I was also unhappy as, although there had been a sudden loss of power, the car certainly did not have a misfiring problem before it went in for it’s service.
Since then I have spoken to the garage a number of times and I have been told, on each occasion, of the various jobs they had done on the car to try to rectify the misfire but that it was still misfiring. Among others, these jobs have included a new coil, new fuel filter, new plugs, new HT leads and replacing faulty wiring. By then the bill was racking up and the garage had kept the car for two months. I was therefore very unhappy and demanded that the car be sorted as I was coming to pick it up on the 12 July 2008.
On the 12 July I arrived at the garage to find a mechanic under the bonnet and was told that the car was still misfiring and that now it was either a sticking plenum chamber diaphragm or a faulty ignition box causing the problem. The car was then started up and it was clear that it would not even drive off the premises let alone get me home as the misfire was so bad. The mechanic advised me that, having checked everything else including the fuel supply, he had found that the plugs were coked up as the fuel mixture was too rich and that it was probably the plenum chamber causing the problem. He was therefore proposing to take out the plenum chamber and would send it away for checking and repair. I was told that he would start the job on Monday, that it would take 10 working days and I would then have the car back.
So nine working days later on the 24 July I telephoned the garage again and have now been told that it wasn’t the plenum chamber after all but that there is a problem with the fuel injectors, that they had sent away for new injectors and, if the parts were delivered the next day, would be fitted then and I may get the car back on the Saturday 26 July.
So on the 25 July I telephone again to make sure the car was ready. However, wouldn’t you know it, I was now informed that the mechanic had now found a white emulsion-like substance in the bottom of the fuel tank and that this was contaminating the fuel. In addition the pressures were “all over the place” in the injectors and that they were working on the car but, surprise surprise, the car would not be ready after all!
So what am I to do? I don’t regard myself as a mug but somehow I think that the p**s is being taken. It seems to me that if a garage regards itself as a TVR garage then they should know what they are doing and would have rectified the problem long before now. It seems to me that I should expect a better service than this. I accept old cars need TLC, that they are prone to problems and things do go wrong but it is now 11 weeks later and the car is still not ready. On the 9 August they will have had the car for three months. It sounds as if the garage is trying to steadily work its’ way through every component under the bonnet - and at some cost to me. Does anyone have any advice?
I would be thinking about getting an independent mechanic to look at it, and if necessary get it on a trailler and taken elsewhere. But I would make sure to arrange an alternative establishment first, and of course refuse to pay any bill since they haven't done the work promised...which was to fix the car.
hollowpockets said:
could I take a guess at 
ETA
You could but lets not eh?
PH rules suggest no 'Naming and shaming' on the forum, you could PM the bloke in question.ETA
You could but lets not eh?
Sorry to hear of the difficulties, refuse to pay. as your HT leads, and other stuff didn't need to be changed.
Dan
Edited by Big Al. on Friday 25th July 19:49
To be fair, other than maybe not keeping you up to date with what's going on and the false hope it's hard to see where the garage is going wrong.
Admittedly you're frustrated at not having your car back, and the delays, and the promise of things being right and then finding out they arent but :
the garage probably put 3 days aside for your car on the basis that it was just Mot and a few other bits .. then the car turns up running badly and worse still it's on K jetronic which are an absolute pain to get parts for and hellish expensive. There's also little diagnosis equipment for them and you're prtty much at the mercy of the old-school experience of the techie. If the techie is under 30 years of age he might not know too much about it. I grew up modifying K jetronic systems and I hate them with a passion.
Because your car has taken longer to sort than first booked in for I imagine it's eating into time booked in for other jobs .. it's an occupational hazard but a garage can't just put other jobs on hold because yours turned up in a far worse state than they were led to believe, it's not the garages fault your car went faulty 3 days before it was due to have an MOT and a bit of other work doing. If they're anything like me they're booked 6 weeks in advance and finding an extra day here and there takes some doing! Finding the time to sort your car must be a nightmare for them, and they're losing money hand over fist every time they put a spanner on it by the sounds of it.
I would argue the garage is probably doing it's best to keep you and all it's other regular customers happy .. leading you on with false promises of the car being fixed is unwise, but they were possibly trying to not let you down but ended up with egg on their face when being completely honest would have been better (we don't know the full facts only your side of the story, and experience tells me there's always two sides ..)
You can take your car away and pay garage 1 what you owe them, or leave them to it on the basis that there's not much more they can change!
PS most K jetronic problems centre around the warm up regulator, it's a 200 plus pound part and the work of the devil himself.
Admittedly you're frustrated at not having your car back, and the delays, and the promise of things being right and then finding out they arent but :
the garage probably put 3 days aside for your car on the basis that it was just Mot and a few other bits .. then the car turns up running badly and worse still it's on K jetronic which are an absolute pain to get parts for and hellish expensive. There's also little diagnosis equipment for them and you're prtty much at the mercy of the old-school experience of the techie. If the techie is under 30 years of age he might not know too much about it. I grew up modifying K jetronic systems and I hate them with a passion.
Because your car has taken longer to sort than first booked in for I imagine it's eating into time booked in for other jobs .. it's an occupational hazard but a garage can't just put other jobs on hold because yours turned up in a far worse state than they were led to believe, it's not the garages fault your car went faulty 3 days before it was due to have an MOT and a bit of other work doing. If they're anything like me they're booked 6 weeks in advance and finding an extra day here and there takes some doing! Finding the time to sort your car must be a nightmare for them, and they're losing money hand over fist every time they put a spanner on it by the sounds of it.
I would argue the garage is probably doing it's best to keep you and all it's other regular customers happy .. leading you on with false promises of the car being fixed is unwise, but they were possibly trying to not let you down but ended up with egg on their face when being completely honest would have been better (we don't know the full facts only your side of the story, and experience tells me there's always two sides ..)
You can take your car away and pay garage 1 what you owe them, or leave them to it on the basis that there's not much more they can change!
PS most K jetronic problems centre around the warm up regulator, it's a 200 plus pound part and the work of the devil himself.
trackcar said:
...Stuff...
So long as they don't charge him far all the working parts they needlessly replaced. Any muppet can keep replacing bits until they find the one that was broke, thats why we PAY specialists to fix our cars so we don't isn't it?So long as they only charge you for what "needed" replacing, and an agreable sum for the time it took to find and repair the actual fault then hey have done you well.
Indeed you shouldn't have to pay for replaced parts which don't fix the fault, unless you agree the parts were below par and it was sensible to replace them at the time anyway .. but you don't have to pay for something that isn't directly fixing the fault if you don't want to. But then again, there's no evidence this garage is going to charge the OP for anything other than parts/time spent directly attributable to fixing the fault but youre right in that it's something to be aware of.
But I say again : there's very little you can do diagnosing these injection systems : they don't have an ecu you can interrogate and you rely on experience and a bit of data in an Autodata book on fuelling pressures and clearances, that's if you have the antique fuel measuring stuff : no schraeder valves on these units! Diagnosis on these can be very much suck it and see and time costs go up accordingly.
It's not for no reason that most of the racing tasmins junked the K jetronic and went to carbs! Fault tracing the K can be frustrating work.
But I say again : there's very little you can do diagnosing these injection systems : they don't have an ecu you can interrogate and you rely on experience and a bit of data in an Autodata book on fuelling pressures and clearances, that's if you have the antique fuel measuring stuff : no schraeder valves on these units! Diagnosis on these can be very much suck it and see and time costs go up accordingly.
It's not for no reason that most of the racing tasmins junked the K jetronic and went to carbs! Fault tracing the K can be frustrating work.
trackcar said:
Because your car has taken longer to sort than first booked in for I imagine it's eating into time booked in for other jobs .. it's an occupational hazard but a garage can't just put other jobs on hold because yours turned up in a far worse state than they were led to believe,
Either they want to fix the car (within a reasonable time, and three months is completely unreasonable) or they should be honest and say they don't know what they're doing or haven't got the time to fix it, in which case the owner should get it back. Stringing a customer along, missing deadlines and generally feeding customers BS seems to be part and parcel of life in the car business [/generalisation mode]
7.
glow worm said:
I would be thinking about getting an independent mechanic to look at it, and if necessary get it on a trailler and taken elsewhere. But I would make sure to arrange an alternative establishment first, and of course refuse to pay any bill since they haven't done the work promised...which was to fix the car.
Imagine the discussion. I've brought a trailer to take my car away as its not finished and you've not yet found the fault.
Yes no problem sir, the bill for work done to date is X.
I refuse to pay the bill.
Fine, no problem, just leave the car there until the bill is paid then..
I was in a similar situation a while back, but as Jools (Trackcar) has said, the garage cannot be held totally at fault.
I had booked my car in with my trusted and respected TVR Specialist, well in advance, but as the time came to get it to the garage, the job escalated, from a simple tune to an engine out, and whilst it was frustrating, as I missed a few race meets and the car was with the garage for a long time, I understood why. It was booked in for a day or so for the original jobs but it took a lot longer to sort the problems that it had when i dropped the car off. Any good garage will be busy, it's the nature of success. They have to allocate time to jobs and if one runs over you cannot expect everyone after you to suffer.
As for the parts issue, I would have thought a TVR specialist would have had a shelf full of 'test items' to see what needed changing, I know this has been the case on occasion with my Range Rover. Suspect injectors, swap with known good injectors to see if it's the problem etc etc. but maybe that's way too logical.
Tim
I had booked my car in with my trusted and respected TVR Specialist, well in advance, but as the time came to get it to the garage, the job escalated, from a simple tune to an engine out, and whilst it was frustrating, as I missed a few race meets and the car was with the garage for a long time, I understood why. It was booked in for a day or so for the original jobs but it took a lot longer to sort the problems that it had when i dropped the car off. Any good garage will be busy, it's the nature of success. They have to allocate time to jobs and if one runs over you cannot expect everyone after you to suffer.
As for the parts issue, I would have thought a TVR specialist would have had a shelf full of 'test items' to see what needed changing, I know this has been the case on occasion with my Range Rover. Suspect injectors, swap with known good injectors to see if it's the problem etc etc. but maybe that's way too logical.
Tim
TVR_owner said:
glow worm said:
I would be thinking about getting an independent mechanic to look at it, and if necessary get it on a trailler and taken elsewhere. But I would make sure to arrange an alternative establishment first, and of course refuse to pay any bill since they haven't done the work promised...which was to fix the car.
Imagine the discussion. I've brought a trailer to take my car away as its not finished and you've not yet found the fault.
Yes no problem sir, the bill for work done to date is X.
I refuse to pay the bill.
Fine, no problem, just leave the car there until the bill is paid then..
As a one make specialist in the motor trade, of many years standing, I'm curious to see how this turns out.
There are a couple of issues I'm not getting.
Not wanting to make anyone sound incompetent, or the job in hand straightforward but, Bosch K Jet shouldn't be problematic and it should be relatively simple to fault trace and fix. There are only two base settings to establish really. Fuel delivery and fuel pressure. Such is rudimentary, and all else should pretty much hinge around so.
I'm assuming the 'misfire' if it is f.i related is a problem associated with the sudden loss of power the car was displaying when took for repair.
I somewhat disagree with trackcar as there is an alternative inexpensive route which can be taken. Problem is, this is a garage offering repair and they may only want to fit new components. However, this is only a Ford after all, of which there are still many good used parts readily available for not a lot of money. Yes someone might have to search around, but the Bosh 10 digit part number is on both these components, making the search a lot easier. So the alternative might be, providing there is correct fuel delivery and return, throw a good used warm-up regulator and fuel distributor unit at it and see what happens? That's my best guess with a stab in the dark.
I'm in the North or Watford class
If these people are close to Hull, and in need of the use of a Snap-on fuel pressure tester, I can perhaps help??
There are a couple of issues I'm not getting.
Not wanting to make anyone sound incompetent, or the job in hand straightforward but, Bosch K Jet shouldn't be problematic and it should be relatively simple to fault trace and fix. There are only two base settings to establish really. Fuel delivery and fuel pressure. Such is rudimentary, and all else should pretty much hinge around so.
I'm assuming the 'misfire' if it is f.i related is a problem associated with the sudden loss of power the car was displaying when took for repair.
I somewhat disagree with trackcar as there is an alternative inexpensive route which can be taken. Problem is, this is a garage offering repair and they may only want to fit new components. However, this is only a Ford after all, of which there are still many good used parts readily available for not a lot of money. Yes someone might have to search around, but the Bosh 10 digit part number is on both these components, making the search a lot easier. So the alternative might be, providing there is correct fuel delivery and return, throw a good used warm-up regulator and fuel distributor unit at it and see what happens? That's my best guess with a stab in the dark.
I'm in the North or Watford class
If these people are close to Hull, and in need of the use of a Snap-on fuel pressure tester, I can perhaps help??TVR_owner said:
glow worm said:
I would be thinking about getting an independent mechanic to look at it, and if necessary get it on a trailler and taken elsewhere. But I would make sure to arrange an alternative establishment first, and of course refuse to pay any bill since they haven't done the work promised...which was to fix the car.
Imagine the discussion. I've brought a trailer to take my car away as its not finished and you've not yet found the fault.
Yes no problem sir, the bill for work done to date is X.
I refuse to pay the bill.
Fine, no problem, just leave the car there until the bill is paid then..
king garage. Worked for me twice in the last 3 years. DONT LET THEM fk YOU ABOUT........Edited by TOV!E on Saturday 26th July 15:31
Well aprt from threatening Life and Limb as Toves has done 
how on earth do you say you are not going to pay for parts that have been replaced on the car...let alone the labour for putting them there.
True...it would apprear that these parts were not needed in the first place....but other than the garage stripping them all out and replacing the old parts back again.......
This is a really tricky one.......
I would be most unhappy to pay for parts that weren't even needed!!!!
Sounds like you need to book an appointment for a 'face to face' 'what the hell is going on and how are we going to resolve it' type of dicussion.
YP
how on earth do you say you are not going to pay for parts that have been replaced on the car...let alone the labour for putting them there.True...it would apprear that these parts were not needed in the first place....but other than the garage stripping them all out and replacing the old parts back again.......
This is a really tricky one.......
I would be most unhappy to pay for parts that weren't even needed!!!!
Sounds like you need to book an appointment for a 'face to face' 'what the hell is going on and how are we going to resolve it' type of dicussion.
YP
Edited by yellow peril on Saturday 26th July 19:10
Oh dear, you do seem to be going through it.
Whilst I can empathise, I have to say I totally agree with the sentiments expressed by Trackcar but that's not to say that I think you have been properly dealt with as a customer. My car is not a daily requirement and I do tell this to anyone working on it. Therefore when they do come up against something more out of the usual from servicing, they don't have a problem telephoning me to say "something which is not straight forward - not sure yet - investigating - can you leave it with us for a few days otherwise we'll get behind on services and mot's"
Me - "Thanks for letting know, no problem, sort it when you are able"
I should add that, unless it is something trivial, I always make a request prior to any work being undertaken that all parts removed/replaced on the car are are kept and returned to me. Like you I had an instance of trying someone different a while back. The difference was that my car was running well when I took it to get the wiper motor replaced but awful when I came to collect it. I left it with them and over a few days my plugs/leads/rotor/cap, fuel regulator and I think something else were replaced but the car still ran badly when I came to collect it so took it straight back again before they closed. They had it two more days checking other things by which time the cost for labour and parts had got to about £1150 if I remember.
Finally I arranged to collect it again and parked my tow barge (with car trailer) down the road. I asked to test my car - still rough, which wasn't denied. (They may own the parts until paid for, but don't forget that you own the car) Although it was strongly contested and I wasn't sure whether or not I was justified, I did refuse to pay and drove my car onto the trailer and went straight to Coventry. There, (take note) the old parts were refitted to my car, contacts on the sensors cleaned, ECU and emissions checked, test drive and all was well. Including change of oils/filters and replacement serp belt £345 so I feel a bit easier about the course of action that I took and I've heard nothing further.
Should I have avoided the original garage?
Well to be fair the sensor contacts must've been corroded to begin with and unfortunate that they started to give trouble after I handed the car over. They did seem to be trying find the problem but only by a slow process of replacing one part after another but at the customers expense. Incidentally, I was also told I would need a new steering rack but when I asked Coventry to check it I was told it was fine. Form your own opinion on that.
In conclusion, my experience was regrettable from both sides. I'm sure they are competent on service schedules but something extra is needed to resolve the unusual/unexpected on these cars. So I think I will avoid for the foreseeable future, although I have bought some basic parts - dressed in disguise.
I have since been using two TVR garages who's customer service and ability to go straight to the source of any problem (even though it doesn't come up on the fault code reader) have impressed me and I'll continue to use them.
Good luck and I hope you manage to get a satisfactory solution.
Whilst I can empathise, I have to say I totally agree with the sentiments expressed by Trackcar but that's not to say that I think you have been properly dealt with as a customer. My car is not a daily requirement and I do tell this to anyone working on it. Therefore when they do come up against something more out of the usual from servicing, they don't have a problem telephoning me to say "something which is not straight forward - not sure yet - investigating - can you leave it with us for a few days otherwise we'll get behind on services and mot's"
Me - "Thanks for letting know, no problem, sort it when you are able"
I should add that, unless it is something trivial, I always make a request prior to any work being undertaken that all parts removed/replaced on the car are are kept and returned to me. Like you I had an instance of trying someone different a while back. The difference was that my car was running well when I took it to get the wiper motor replaced but awful when I came to collect it. I left it with them and over a few days my plugs/leads/rotor/cap, fuel regulator and I think something else were replaced but the car still ran badly when I came to collect it so took it straight back again before they closed. They had it two more days checking other things by which time the cost for labour and parts had got to about £1150 if I remember.
Finally I arranged to collect it again and parked my tow barge (with car trailer) down the road. I asked to test my car - still rough, which wasn't denied. (They may own the parts until paid for, but don't forget that you own the car) Although it was strongly contested and I wasn't sure whether or not I was justified, I did refuse to pay and drove my car onto the trailer and went straight to Coventry. There, (take note) the old parts were refitted to my car, contacts on the sensors cleaned, ECU and emissions checked, test drive and all was well. Including change of oils/filters and replacement serp belt £345 so I feel a bit easier about the course of action that I took and I've heard nothing further.
Should I have avoided the original garage?
Well to be fair the sensor contacts must've been corroded to begin with and unfortunate that they started to give trouble after I handed the car over. They did seem to be trying find the problem but only by a slow process of replacing one part after another but at the customers expense. Incidentally, I was also told I would need a new steering rack but when I asked Coventry to check it I was told it was fine. Form your own opinion on that.
In conclusion, my experience was regrettable from both sides. I'm sure they are competent on service schedules but something extra is needed to resolve the unusual/unexpected on these cars. So I think I will avoid for the foreseeable future, although I have bought some basic parts - dressed in disguise.
I have since been using two TVR garages who's customer service and ability to go straight to the source of any problem (even though it doesn't come up on the fault code reader) have impressed me and I'll continue to use them.
Good luck and I hope you manage to get a satisfactory solution.
TOV!E said:
TVR_owner said:
glow worm said:
I would be thinking about getting an independent mechanic to look at it, and if necessary get it on a trailler and taken elsewhere. But I would make sure to arrange an alternative establishment first, and of course refuse to pay any bill since they haven't done the work promised...which was to fix the car.
Imagine the discussion. I've brought a trailer to take my car away as its not finished and you've not yet found the fault.
Yes no problem sir, the bill for work done to date is X.
I refuse to pay the bill.
Fine, no problem, just leave the car there until the bill is paid then..
king garage. Worked for me twice in the last 3 years. DONT LET THEM fk YOU ABOUT........Edited by TOV!E on Saturday 26th July 15:31
Edited by glow worm on Saturday 26th July 20:35
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