Interesting legal question
Interesting legal question
Author
Discussion

Simpo Two

Original Poster:

92,942 posts

295 months

Sunday 20th July 2008
quotequote all
I was talking to a chap at a wedding today and he asked me what the law was if somebody doesn't want their photo taken. Delving deeper it turned out that he's a nightclub bouncer and he'd had to eject somebody from his club. There was a bit of a scuffle, the evictee fell over and got a bash etc. The evictee's mates tried to take a photo of the bouncer as some kind of evidence. Bouncer told them not to photograph him, but they did anyway. Bouncer then grabbed the camera and deleted the files.

Who was in the wrong, if anybody?

Andy M

3,755 posts

289 months

Sunday 20th July 2008
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Definitely the bouncer. Deleting the pictures is assault IIRC...

agent006

12,058 posts

294 months

Sunday 20th July 2008
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You do not own the light reflected off you in the UK.

paul911

2,771 posts

263 months

Sunday 20th July 2008
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I was in a “club” like that where they took the camera from mewinkangel. Happy days.

Sorry absolutely no help to a serious question. Sorry.smile

john185k

2,249 posts

243 months

Sunday 20th July 2008
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Andy M said:
Definitely the bouncer. Deleting the pictures is assault IIRC...
Deleting the files is assault??!! Its wrong, but not assault. Its not theft as there is no intent to deprive the owner, its not assault as there is no intent to cause harm to the person.

Probably some sort of public order crime, if it is in England...

ThatPhilBrettGuy

11,810 posts

270 months

Sunday 20th July 2008
quotequote all
Inside or outside the club? Outside then the bouncer is in the wrong. Public place so you can't stop it. Inside however...

Simpo Two

Original Poster:

92,942 posts

295 months

Sunday 20th July 2008
quotequote all
ThatPhilBrettGuy said:
Inside or outside the club? Outside then the bouncer is in the wrong. Public place so you can't stop it. Inside however...
Good question - don't know. I'd agree that physically grabbing a camera forcefully from someone would seem to constitute assault, yes. The bouncer seemed to think that as he'd ordered someone not to take his photo, but that they had ignored his request, that put them in the wrong. So if it was inside, the score is Bouncer 1 (can't take photo on private property without permission), Victim 1 (assault). If it was outside, the score is Bouncer 0, Victim 1 (Gerrard, 54 mins).

RobDickinson

31,343 posts

284 months

Sunday 20th July 2008
quotequote all
You've no right, in a public place to refuse tour photo being taken.

And the police cant sieze your camera or delete files without a warrent, I dont see a bouncer having mroe rights than a copper...

DIW35

4,205 posts

230 months

Sunday 20th July 2008
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"You are reminded that under UK law, there are no restrictions on taking photographs in a public place or on photography of individuals, whether they are adults or minors. There is no right to privacy in a public place, although photographers are of course subject to the usual libel laws in the same way as any other citizen and should observe them. Equipment or film may not be confiscated, or images deleted by any person or officer unless a warrant for such action is issued. Any attempt without a warrant is considered assault under UK law."

That's just a precis of an extract of several laws that concern the taking of photographs in a public place. On the basis that the photos were taken outside the club in a public place, then the bouncer was in the wrong and was guilty of assault when he deleted the photos.

Greendubber

15,351 posts

233 months

Sunday 20th July 2008
quotequote all
Public place is any place where the general public have access to whether by payment or otherwise at the material time. A nightclub I think would come under a 'public place'. If it was a members only club then it wouldnt be a public place.

Jonleeper

664 posts

259 months

Monday 21st July 2008
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Greendubber said:
Public place is any place where the general public have access to whether by payment or otherwise at the material time. A nightclub I think would come under a 'public place'. If it was a members only club then it wouldnt be a public place.
Not sure that this is correct, as a Shooping Centre would fit your description but IS a privately owen piece of land and the owvers can specify No Photography if they so wish. So even if the incident took place outside if the "club" owns the pand it is private and they can specify wether photography is allowed. Of course there is nothing to stop the "victim" or his friends moving off the private property, onto the "queens highway" for example, and taking the photographs from there.

Taking the camera and deleting the photographs is illegal though, I believe, as it constitutes assult. I think that the legal way of going about getting the photographs destroyed is to call the police and they sort it out. Not 100% sure about that though!

Not a lawer but been following seveal threads about this.

Jon

RobDickinson

31,343 posts

284 months

Monday 21st July 2008
quotequote all
Police cant do anything without a warrent and they wont get one of those unless theres some national security issue or something.

Andy M

3,755 posts

289 months

Monday 21st July 2008
quotequote all
john185k said:
Andy M said:
Definitely the bouncer. Deleting the pictures is assault IIRC...
Deleting the files is assault??!! Its wrong, but not assault.
I see this has been clarified further down the thread.

havoc

33,475 posts

265 months

Monday 21st July 2008
quotequote all
Andy M said:
john185k said:
Andy M said:
Definitely the bouncer. Deleting the pictures is assault IIRC...
Deleting the files is assault??!! Its wrong, but not assault.
I see this has been clarified further down the thread.
How about forcibly taking the camera FROM someone in order to delete the files, or threatening violence in order to get them to give you the camera?!?

I can't see a bouncer getting hold of the camera without violence or the threat thereof...

ginettag27

7,139 posts

299 months

Monday 21st July 2008
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simply undelete... PC Inspector Smart Recovery..

Scho

2,479 posts

233 months

Monday 21st July 2008
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agent006 said:
You do not own the light reflected off you in the UK.
thats a fantastic way of putting it!

Greendubber

15,351 posts

233 months

Monday 21st July 2008
quotequote all
Jonleeper said:
Greendubber said:
Public place is any place where the general public have access to whether by payment or otherwise at the material time. A nightclub I think would come under a 'public place'. If it was a members only club then it wouldnt be a public place.
Not sure that this is correct, as a Shooping Centre would fit your description but IS a privately owen piece of land and the owvers can specify No Photography if they so wish. So even if the incident took place outside if the "club" owns the pand it is private and they can specify wether photography is allowed. Of course there is nothing to stop the "victim" or his friends moving off the private property, onto the "queens highway" for example, and taking the photographs from there.

Taking the camera and deleting the photographs is illegal though, I believe, as it constitutes assult. I think that the legal way of going about getting the photographs destroyed is to call the police and they sort it out. Not 100% sure about that though!

Not a lawer but been following seveal threads about this.

Jon
A public place is a place that the public have access to at the material time whether by payment or otherwise. So for example a private field thats been opened up for a fate or something that had an entry fee would be a public place when the fate is on. I cant see how that would be different from a night club as its private property that people are paying to get into, so during opening hours it would be a public place. People get taken out of pubs/clubs for being drunk and disorderly in a public place. If the club is shut and you're invited in then its not a public place.

Think about all the photo's that get taken on nights out on camera phones or compacts....no ones trying to get them off you.

I'll have a double check at work later on though about the nightclub scenario and let you all know.

baz7175

3,551 posts

241 months

Monday 21st July 2008
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I know from taking pics inside a club in NI for a mag that I had to get permission to do so directly from the management of the club and once I was in I was being monitored quite closely throughout the evening by the bouncers, without the official approval there wasn't a hope of me getting the camera in the door...

Emeye

9,781 posts

253 months

Monday 21st July 2008
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Thing is, these days almost everyone carries a camera around with them, even if it is low quality and strapped onto their mobile phone!

If a club didn't want any pictures taking, they would have to take everyone's phones off them!

And these camera phones are getting better and better - the Sony K810i that I have is 3.2Mp and has a proper flash!

I love taking pictures with it on nights out! You get some very interesting results! smile

I took this with a Motorola V3i - a very poor quality camera with no flash on a stag do, but I love the "feel" of it.




dapprman

2,786 posts

297 months

Monday 21st July 2008
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This URL was posted else where in this forum Law on Photography.

Basically you can take a photo of anyone in a public place. If the bouncer requested they stop, but they continued to purposely take photos of him, then this falls under harrasment - a criminal offence.

As to the grabbing the camera and deleting the photos - theft, and the grabbing of the camera could also be considered assault.