war planes in films / real life
Discussion
Just watching Batle of Midway on TV and it's prompted me to ask this question:
whenever I see films and there's a load (forgive me if i get too technical) of planes flying and they're about to bomb a target .. when they see that target why do they always bank to dive down ? why don't the pilots just push the stick forwards and go down with wings level? They always seem to bank to one side and slew down sideways, then level out and do their bombing / gun firing etc etc. I've never understood why they can't just push the stick forwards. Is it that it just looks more dramatic for the films or did war pilots actually do it this way for a reason.
Apologies for the poor description, hope you understand what im getting at! It's always bugged me and i'm sure someone will know the answer
whenever I see films and there's a load (forgive me if i get too technical) of planes flying and they're about to bomb a target .. when they see that target why do they always bank to dive down ? why don't the pilots just push the stick forwards and go down with wings level? They always seem to bank to one side and slew down sideways, then level out and do their bombing / gun firing etc etc. I've never understood why they can't just push the stick forwards. Is it that it just looks more dramatic for the films or did war pilots actually do it this way for a reason.
Apologies for the poor description, hope you understand what im getting at! It's always bugged me and i'm sure someone will know the answer
Good question & I know what you're on about. I'd always imagined it to be a visibility thing- its hard to see your target when its infront/underneath you, because you have a dirty great big plane in the way. You can only look above, left and right, unrestricted. Much easier to sidle up to it (did I just invent a word?), then bank towards it, instantly losing altitude, while getting closer to your target... Which you can still see by looking up or to the left/right!
Big bombers had rangefinders sitting in a window on the planes centreline, telling them when to release the bombs. Smaller fighters/zeros/torpedo bombers etc, didnt have that luxury, and needed to be at high altitude to increase their field of vision in order to find their target. Once they found their target, they had to drop altitude to a useful range, whilst not losing track of their target. Modern planes, of course, have cameras & all kinds of homing jazz, making the technique redundant.
Big bombers had rangefinders sitting in a window on the planes centreline, telling them when to release the bombs. Smaller fighters/zeros/torpedo bombers etc, didnt have that luxury, and needed to be at high altitude to increase their field of vision in order to find their target. Once they found their target, they had to drop altitude to a useful range, whilst not losing track of their target. Modern planes, of course, have cameras & all kinds of homing jazz, making the technique redundant.
- All of the above is my hypothesizing aloud.
Edited by glazbagun on Saturday 31st May 00:22
SystemParanoia said:
Brilliant. I must get those Up/Down arrow keys installed in the Pitts. Can't see the PFA letting me put a Space-Bar in there as well.eharding said:
Positive G is always more comfortable than negative G. Depending on the aircraft, the fuel/oil system may not react kindly to negative G either....and finally, rolling in on the target means you can keep your eye on it.
As above, plus most aircraft have lower stress limits for negative g than positive g, so the kindest thing for the airframe is to roll into the dive.It also looks cooler...
thanks all for the answers! I should have realised about the negative G thing - the basis for fuel injection overtaking carbs in aircraft as i recall (as well as slight hp gains and easier to supercharge) amongst other reasons .. all other replies make perfect sense too, cheers plus yeh it does look cooler which is the main reason i thought it might be used in films, seems it has real basis in real life too
plus yeh it does look cooler which is the main reason i thought it might be used in films, seems it has real basis in real life too trackcar said:
thanks all for the answers! I should have realised about the negative G thing - the basis for fuel injection overtaking carbs in aircraft as i recall (as well as slight hp gains and easier to supercharge) amongst other reasons .. all other replies make perfect sense too, cheers plus yeh it does look cooler which is the main reason i thought it might be used in films, seems it has real basis in real life too
Negative G I think forms quite a basis in Allied planes - spitfires chasing ME 109s for example, the 109 could just dive straight down, whilst the spit would have to roll then dive. plus yeh it does look cooler which is the main reason i thought it might be used in films, seems it has real basis in real life too Certain planes, such as Stuka Dive Bombers were designed to dive forwards.
Also, many planes which dropped bombs were not actually dive bombers per se but fighter bombers (so they could fight their way home again, and also have multiple use in theatre) - you only had to look at what happened to the stuka if there were any fighters or even fighter bombers nearby....
It depends on the type of aeroplane and the type of bombing attack being carried out.
Fighter bombers were usually fighters which had been modified for the ground attack role. Good examples of WW2 aircraft used in this manner were the Hawker Hurricane, Hawker Typhoon, P-47 Thunderbolt and F4U Corsair. It was common practice for the attacking aircraft to approach the target from the side rather than it with it being straight ahead. The long noses on these aircraft meant that a straight approach would have blocked any vision forward and down onto the target. By approaching from the side this allowed the pilot to keep the target in sight. Once positively identified, the leader would initiate a diving turn onto the target which was then conducted in a shallow dive. This would allow the target to remain in view until the bombs or rockets were released. The plane would them be pulled up in a steep climbing turn to get away from ground fire.
During WW2 a number of pure dive bombers wer4e also used. The most famous of these was the Junkers Ju87 Stuka. Allied dive bpmbers included the Blackburn Skua and the Douglas SBD Dauntless. Dive bombers were used in a different manner to fighter bombers. They usuall approached the target directly at a fairly high altitude (10,000 feet). Once identified and in position, the leader would simply push the nose straight over and put the plane into a straight vertical dive. Dive bombers were equipped with special airbrakes (called dive brakes) to ensure that the plane did not accelerate too fast when in the dive. The bomb or bombs was dropped at quite a low altitude directly onto the target after which a high G pull out was initiated.
In the real Battle of Midway, the US Navy had great success with their Dauntless dive bombers. Less successful were their older Douglas TBD Devastator torpedo bombers. These attacked at extremely low level (10 feet above the waves) and had to fly straight and level in order to drop their torpedoes. They were therefore extremely vulnerable and one whole squadron of Devastators was shot down in the Battle. I met the only survivor of that squadron (Ensign George Gay) back in 1981 and a lovely old bloke he was. In the movie he's played by actor Kevin Dobson ("Crocker" from the TV series "Kojack").
Fighter bombers were usually fighters which had been modified for the ground attack role. Good examples of WW2 aircraft used in this manner were the Hawker Hurricane, Hawker Typhoon, P-47 Thunderbolt and F4U Corsair. It was common practice for the attacking aircraft to approach the target from the side rather than it with it being straight ahead. The long noses on these aircraft meant that a straight approach would have blocked any vision forward and down onto the target. By approaching from the side this allowed the pilot to keep the target in sight. Once positively identified, the leader would initiate a diving turn onto the target which was then conducted in a shallow dive. This would allow the target to remain in view until the bombs or rockets were released. The plane would them be pulled up in a steep climbing turn to get away from ground fire.
During WW2 a number of pure dive bombers wer4e also used. The most famous of these was the Junkers Ju87 Stuka. Allied dive bpmbers included the Blackburn Skua and the Douglas SBD Dauntless. Dive bombers were used in a different manner to fighter bombers. They usuall approached the target directly at a fairly high altitude (10,000 feet). Once identified and in position, the leader would simply push the nose straight over and put the plane into a straight vertical dive. Dive bombers were equipped with special airbrakes (called dive brakes) to ensure that the plane did not accelerate too fast when in the dive. The bomb or bombs was dropped at quite a low altitude directly onto the target after which a high G pull out was initiated.
In the real Battle of Midway, the US Navy had great success with their Dauntless dive bombers. Less successful were their older Douglas TBD Devastator torpedo bombers. These attacked at extremely low level (10 feet above the waves) and had to fly straight and level in order to drop their torpedoes. They were therefore extremely vulnerable and one whole squadron of Devastators was shot down in the Battle. I met the only survivor of that squadron (Ensign George Gay) back in 1981 and a lovely old bloke he was. In the movie he's played by actor Kevin Dobson ("Crocker" from the TV series "Kojack").
Edited by Eric Mc on Saturday 31st May 08:04
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