Road handling - tail slides, what to do?
Discussion
Anyone,
I have a Chimaera but posting this in the general TVR group so that all of you other TVR owners can respond. Not driven the car for a couple of weeks (3rd car) due to the weather - lots of snow and really heavy frosts - so decided to take it to work today.
However, managed to get the back "loose" three times on the way. The journey is 100 miles so everything was nice and warm but still managed to get the back out coming out a roundabout and on a straight twice! Nothing major, and got back in shape quickly. I am your typical FWD driver so what do I do? Take my foot of the power and it comes back - which I know you are not really supposed to do on the track at least.
But, this leads me on to the question, what the hell are you supposed to do? So far I have been very luck with no problems (just a bit of a wobble). But would like to know what other people do in these circumstances, and what you are supposed to do....?
Feedback please... Oh, and I am fairly new at this thing having never owned a RWD car before.
Cheers,
Paul
I have a Chimaera but posting this in the general TVR group so that all of you other TVR owners can respond. Not driven the car for a couple of weeks (3rd car) due to the weather - lots of snow and really heavy frosts - so decided to take it to work today.
However, managed to get the back "loose" three times on the way. The journey is 100 miles so everything was nice and warm but still managed to get the back out coming out a roundabout and on a straight twice! Nothing major, and got back in shape quickly. I am your typical FWD driver so what do I do? Take my foot of the power and it comes back - which I know you are not really supposed to do on the track at least.
But, this leads me on to the question, what the hell are you supposed to do? So far I have been very luck with no problems (just a bit of a wobble). But would like to know what other people do in these circumstances, and what you are supposed to do....?
Feedback please... Oh, and I am fairly new at this thing having never owned a RWD car before.
Cheers,
Paul
I suppose the answer is to go on a course.
Another could be to apply the gas with caution in this weather. "Roadcraft" - the police handbook available in shops - offers lots of tips. There was also a thread about a year ago where Peter Humphries gave lots of useful advice about preventing spins.
Another could be to apply the gas with caution in this weather. "Roadcraft" - the police handbook available in shops - offers lots of tips. There was also a thread about a year ago where Peter Humphries gave lots of useful advice about preventing spins.
Firstly - use the long travel throttle pedal to good effect - take it easy !
Dont cross your hands going round corners - position at q to 3 and turn (unless very tight of course)...this means that you will always know when the wheels are pointing straight ahead
If the back steps out, look where you want to go, not where you are going (i.e. the road ahead - not the barrier or pavement - if its a bad slide, you may be looking out the side window !!)
Reduce throttle (closing the throttle at higher speeds can induce fish tailing)
Steer in the same direction as the slide (I'll assume its oversteer !).
When the car is straight - squeeze the gas in GENTLY - you dont want to slide in the other direction...
If you lose it completely, hit the brakes and pray.
Try going out late at night, find a 2 or 3 lane roundabout and practise a little (without attracting to much attention of course).
Dont cross your hands going round corners - position at q to 3 and turn (unless very tight of course)...this means that you will always know when the wheels are pointing straight ahead
If the back steps out, look where you want to go, not where you are going (i.e. the road ahead - not the barrier or pavement - if its a bad slide, you may be looking out the side window !!)
Reduce throttle (closing the throttle at higher speeds can induce fish tailing)
Steer in the same direction as the slide (I'll assume its oversteer !).
When the car is straight - squeeze the gas in GENTLY - you dont want to slide in the other direction...
If you lose it completely, hit the brakes and pray.
Try going out late at night, find a 2 or 3 lane roundabout and practise a little (without attracting to much attention of course).
Roadcraft would tell you - "Remove the Cause" as a general principle. i.e. Pulling out and turning right at a T junction...back end flying out due to throttle - let go of the accelerator.
Skid due to putting on the brakes whilst turning in on a corner - take foot off brake until steering control comes back (brave!) then re-apply brake. (Cadence braking they call it)
Steer into the skid if necessary.
So far the Roadcraft advice has been quite enough for me in our Chimaera. Clearly this is unsophisticated to a seasoned track driver but...on a public road...?
Skid due to putting on the brakes whilst turning in on a corner - take foot off brake until steering control comes back (brave!) then re-apply brake. (Cadence braking they call it)
Steer into the skid if necessary.
So far the Roadcraft advice has been quite enough for me in our Chimaera. Clearly this is unsophisticated to a seasoned track driver but...on a public road...?
Going on a course such as Don Palmer's Driving Developments at MIRA where he spends all day teaching you about understeer & oversteer. You can practice on a course specifically designed for that purpose, with your own car, without the risk of hitting kerbs,lamposts or getting nicked.......
The best money I have ever spent and frankly should be made compulsary for all performance car drivers!!!!!
The best money I have ever spent and frankly should be made compulsary for all performance car drivers!!!!!
Agree with the requirement for a course, at the company I work for it is mandatory for all employees to attend a drive/survive course every 5 years with a yearly commentary drive, as part of the training we have skid pan driving so whole heartily agree with Douglassr information particularly looking where you want to be not where you have been, a very important point in controlling the car. Unfortunately RTAs in our company is the biggest problem but when you way it up driving skills for each of the 80k employees worldwide comes cheap, I think the company that runs the course in the UK is based at Brands Hatch but carry out course throughout the country.
quote:
Going on a course such as Don Palmer's Driving Developments at MIRA where he spends all day teaching you about understeer & oversteer. You can practice on a course specifically designed for that purpose, with your own car, without the risk of hitting kerbs,lamposts or getting nicked.......
The best money I have ever spent and frankly should be made compulsary for all performance car drivers!!!!!
where is it? got the number??
Thanks
A good concept to keep in you head, whenever your driving any big (Rover) V8 TVR, is that a colossal amount of tourque is always on tap, even at low RPM.
The best way to 'control' this in wet/icy conditions is to limit the pressure, or rate of change of throttle opening. As DouglasR said, take it easy!
On a wet day, not long after I'd got my Griff, I was overtaking a cylcist in a 30 limit (under 2000 RPM) and - in order to overtake swiftly & safetly - must have subconcioulsy eased the throttle pedal down. The result was an impressive (though unplanned) power slide for a few yards, which could have been awkward with oncomming vehicles.
Marcus
& Ocean Haze Griff 500
The best way to 'control' this in wet/icy conditions is to limit the pressure, or rate of change of throttle opening. As DouglasR said, take it easy!
On a wet day, not long after I'd got my Griff, I was overtaking a cylcist in a 30 limit (under 2000 RPM) and - in order to overtake swiftly & safetly - must have subconcioulsy eased the throttle pedal down. The result was an impressive (though unplanned) power slide for a few yards, which could have been awkward with oncomming vehicles.
Marcus
& Ocean Haze Griff 500
1. Floor the clutch; this is actually better than going off the gas (...ever had a rear wheel block on snow due to engine brake?)...don't put in neutral however, you might have to use gas when push really comes to shove...
2. Turn the wheel towards to where you WANT TO go.
same applies for aquaplaning....this saved me a few times....when I see a big puddle ahead, I floor the clutch, brake BEFORE if I can, then get ready with the steering
cheers
dave
2. Turn the wheel towards to where you WANT TO go.
same applies for aquaplaning....this saved me a few times....when I see a big puddle ahead, I floor the clutch, brake BEFORE if I can, then get ready with the steering
cheers
dave
I'll second Dave's comment on engine braking. My off-road excursion earlier this year was due to engine braking since I leapt of the gas quickly as I started to aqua-plane. If I had planted the clutch instead I would have got of lighter.
It's another testament to the V8's grunt. Watch out for 'bags' of torque on acceleration but be equally aware of it on decelaration (sp).
Steve
It's another testament to the V8's grunt. Watch out for 'bags' of torque on acceleration but be equally aware of it on decelaration (sp).
Steve
Many years ago I contacted the police after a big accident caused by a skid as I had heard skid pan training was available from them. For a very small fee I got half a day with a police instructor on their skid pan in an old Jaguar. It's probably saved my life (or at least my insurance) at least once since.
Does anyone know whether this is still available from the police ?
Yours, Jon Dokic
Does anyone know whether this is still available from the police ?
Yours, Jon Dokic
Just a follow on from my original post - I think that the comments on throttle application are fair. Maybe a do push a little too hard. Also, I seem to forget just how much faster I can end up going even on light applications of the throttle. You really dont need to use that much to get moving....
Also the comment on low down torque is also fair. I have a 400HC which (according to the figures) kicks out 305lbs torque - quite a lot and all at low revs. So maybe lower revs to keep this in check is a good idea.
Will be doing some track days soon (late Jan / Feb) so I can investigate the limits in relative safety. Would like to know where they are so that I can anticipate a little more and realise where I can apply the powere and where I cant.... Now wheres my bank manager, need to have a chat to him about tyres....
Cheers,
Paul
Also the comment on low down torque is also fair. I have a 400HC which (according to the figures) kicks out 305lbs torque - quite a lot and all at low revs. So maybe lower revs to keep this in check is a good idea.
Will be doing some track days soon (late Jan / Feb) so I can investigate the limits in relative safety. Would like to know where they are so that I can anticipate a little more and realise where I can apply the powere and where I cant.... Now wheres my bank manager, need to have a chat to him about tyres....
Cheers,
Paul
quote:
Also the comment on low down torque is also fair. I have a 400HC which (according to the figures) kicks out 305lbs torque - quite a lot and all at low revs. So maybe lower revs to keep this in check is a good idea.
Paul
You're liable to fall into the same trap again with this assumption! Low revs DOES NOT equal safety with the amounts of torque available.
Daves point regarding dipping the clutch is a very valid one as this will remove the source of the power with out the 'hand-brake-turn' effect of taking your foot off the accelerator in gear.
Marcus
& Ocean Haze Griff 500
Guys,
No patronising here but I really think we are exagerating somewhat. I am your average driver and I have no problem handling my Chimaera on wet / slipeery road. The throttle is long enough to control exactly how much power you what to give. Yes, I've had the back end moving about a couple of time, but I am just talking about a slow, gentle slide (which I find rather fun) which won't cause any damage. ... or may be we are trying to scare the sh1t out of new owners here..
Note though that I am talking about a 450 Chimaera. Once I had a Griff for a couple and I didn't dare using the 1st gear for the first 100 miles! A unique mixture of scare and excitement - awesome!
Roms
Antigua Blue Chimaera 450
MCC Smart Passion Grey with Bungee Red interior ;o)
No patronising here but I really think we are exagerating somewhat. I am your average driver and I have no problem handling my Chimaera on wet / slipeery road. The throttle is long enough to control exactly how much power you what to give. Yes, I've had the back end moving about a couple of time, but I am just talking about a slow, gentle slide (which I find rather fun) which won't cause any damage. ... or may be we are trying to scare the sh1t out of new owners here..
Note though that I am talking about a 450 Chimaera. Once I had a Griff for a couple and I didn't dare using the 1st gear for the first 100 miles! A unique mixture of scare and excitement - awesome!
Roms
Antigua Blue Chimaera 450
MCC Smart Passion Grey with Bungee Red interior ;o)
Here is a slightly different question -
I had to get the Chimaera to the garage for an MOT the other day. We live at the bottom of a cul-de-sac with a 90 degree corner going up hill which is also off camber - so if you are too fast into the corner then you will skid straight off. This was covered in sheet ice (even front wheelers find it difficult to get up). Who has the best plan for getting up the hill?
By the way I did manage in the end.
I had to get the Chimaera to the garage for an MOT the other day. We live at the bottom of a cul-de-sac with a 90 degree corner going up hill which is also off camber - so if you are too fast into the corner then you will skid straight off. This was covered in sheet ice (even front wheelers find it difficult to get up). Who has the best plan for getting up the hill?
By the way I did manage in the end.
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