Legal advice reqd / engine builders
Discussion
Hi all, I'm after a bit of advice where I can find some info (plus your opinions)
You may remember a while ago my old engine exploded, and I had a new engine built up by a local engine builders (it's a fairly high spec 1700 X flow btw). Well, I've been having problems since the rebuild with head gaskets going repeatedly. We (i.e. myself and the engine builders) have tried everything, replacing most of the cooling system, new expensive gaskets, checking the head for cracks and wot not ... all to no avail.
Anyway, long story short, I got fed up of working on the car myself (time constraints) and threw it at a local engine tuners I know (not the place where the engine was rebuilt ... they are purely an engine builders and dont have the facilities to house/work on cars) on the instructions that I didn't want to see the car until it was fixed for good. They've done a great job and fixed the problem (after speaking to Burton Power and so on) which turns out to be the head bolts.
Basically the engine builders (who profess to have been building X flows since the dawn of time) reused the standard head bolts, which it seems weren't quite up to the task any more of keeping the head on the block of such a highly stressed, high compression, freshly rebuilt engine. Some very expensive Cosworth bolts later and the problem is solved (finally !)
However, this leaves me out of pocket to the sum of just over £500 (1/2 in parts, 1/2 in labour with my garage) which I'm not happy about, as this is technically a mistake by the engine builder (they shouldn't have reused the bolts ?)
So I want to take it up with them, and ask for compensation, if not the full £500 then a part thereof. However, at the moment I've only got the say so of my garage, and the 2nd hand say so of Burton Power that they shouldn't have reused the bolts.
So ...
Firstly does anyone know where I could get written / documented proof that when rebuilding a 150+ bhp X flow that the standard head bolts shouldn't be reused ?
Secondly, what do you think ... do I have a case here, or am I just blowing hot air ? Should they have known / done this in the first place, or is this just "one of those things" when dealing with racing engines ?
Many thanks y'all
Nev
You may remember a while ago my old engine exploded, and I had a new engine built up by a local engine builders (it's a fairly high spec 1700 X flow btw). Well, I've been having problems since the rebuild with head gaskets going repeatedly. We (i.e. myself and the engine builders) have tried everything, replacing most of the cooling system, new expensive gaskets, checking the head for cracks and wot not ... all to no avail.
Anyway, long story short, I got fed up of working on the car myself (time constraints) and threw it at a local engine tuners I know (not the place where the engine was rebuilt ... they are purely an engine builders and dont have the facilities to house/work on cars) on the instructions that I didn't want to see the car until it was fixed for good. They've done a great job and fixed the problem (after speaking to Burton Power and so on) which turns out to be the head bolts.
Basically the engine builders (who profess to have been building X flows since the dawn of time) reused the standard head bolts, which it seems weren't quite up to the task any more of keeping the head on the block of such a highly stressed, high compression, freshly rebuilt engine. Some very expensive Cosworth bolts later and the problem is solved (finally !)
However, this leaves me out of pocket to the sum of just over £500 (1/2 in parts, 1/2 in labour with my garage) which I'm not happy about, as this is technically a mistake by the engine builder (they shouldn't have reused the bolts ?)
So I want to take it up with them, and ask for compensation, if not the full £500 then a part thereof. However, at the moment I've only got the say so of my garage, and the 2nd hand say so of Burton Power that they shouldn't have reused the bolts.
So ...
Firstly does anyone know where I could get written / documented proof that when rebuilding a 150+ bhp X flow that the standard head bolts shouldn't be reused ?
Secondly, what do you think ... do I have a case here, or am I just blowing hot air ? Should they have known / done this in the first place, or is this just "one of those things" when dealing with racing engines ?
Many thanks y'all
Nev
The problem with that is that Ford themselves say you can reuse the head bolts ... which is fine when it's a 95bhp single carb engine in an Escort or something. The problem here is that the engine is overbored to 1700, is running twin 45's, dry sumped, full race head, blah blah blah, and the extra stress of all this is too much for X hand bolts. But being the "experts" shouldn't the engine builders have known this, or at least thought of it the first time the head gasket went ... ?
Garages eh? I'd do all the work myself if I had the facilities/skills/time etc. 
Anyway, it sounds like the original engine builders were trying to sort the problem, although unsuccessfully. Have you discussed the matter with them, they may be prepared to settle 'out of court'?
Legally, I'm not sure where you stand, or if you even have a leg to stand on!...but best of luck anyway.
Anyway, it sounds like the original engine builders were trying to sort the problem, although unsuccessfully. Have you discussed the matter with them, they may be prepared to settle 'out of court'?
Legally, I'm not sure where you stand, or if you even have a leg to stand on!...but best of luck anyway.
I thnk there's perhaps a 'duty of care' aspect here in that they knew what they were building; they should not have taken chances with critical components. How about the main bearing cap and conrod big-end cap bolts? Were they uprated (or even changed)? If so I think they may have set their own precedent and should have done the head bolts as well.
OK, so this is 'only' an engine; maybe if it failed in competition the worst that could happen is you lose a race, but if a catastrophic failure caused an accident, how would they justify that?
On an airliner, incidentally, every bolt has a serial number and a traceable history of its use... wonder why that might be?
Ian
OK, so this is 'only' an engine; maybe if it failed in competition the worst that could happen is you lose a race, but if a catastrophic failure caused an accident, how would they justify that?
On an airliner, incidentally, every bolt has a serial number and a traceable history of its use... wonder why that might be?
Ian
Nev,
Why don't you contact some of the big engine builders, ie Vulcan, Specialised Engines, etc and see if they will put something in writing.
The head bolts certainly aren't stretch bolts so they should be capable of re-use on the new engine. But having said that, if you asked for a full rebuild, which I assume has left you short of a couple of thousand, then new head bolts you would have expected to be on the parts list.
May I suggest you check exactly what has been replaced, ie what about everything holding the bottom end together, or is it only a matter of time until it throws a rod through the block????????
Good luck Nev, hopefully you will get this sorted soon and enjoy the car for what it is.
Mark
Why don't you contact some of the big engine builders, ie Vulcan, Specialised Engines, etc and see if they will put something in writing.
The head bolts certainly aren't stretch bolts so they should be capable of re-use on the new engine. But having said that, if you asked for a full rebuild, which I assume has left you short of a couple of thousand, then new head bolts you would have expected to be on the parts list.
May I suggest you check exactly what has been replaced, ie what about everything holding the bottom end together, or is it only a matter of time until it throws a rod through the block????????
Good luck Nev, hopefully you will get this sorted soon and enjoy the car for what it is.
Mark
The problem with bolts that are reused is simple: you have no idea of the history of them. In other words, they may have been used more than once already or more than.
Really as the engine is a hi-spec unit, any builder worth their salt should have replaced them for new ones, its simply not worth the risk and taking the chance, something you now know about to your cost unfortunately.
This is one of the reasons i dont trust garages/builders, etc, you dont know what theyre going to do, or what standard of care youre getting.
I had an engine block bored some years ago, before i really got into engines, (a kid basically :rolleyes).
Turned out the guy had overbored the cylinders to such a degree that when it was assembled it had so much piston slap it sounded like a diesel.
Ever since then ive been "picky" to say the least about who i use, and do all the other work myself, even to fabricating the intercooler for the GT4.
Really as the engine is a hi-spec unit, any builder worth their salt should have replaced them for new ones, its simply not worth the risk and taking the chance, something you now know about to your cost unfortunately.
This is one of the reasons i dont trust garages/builders, etc, you dont know what theyre going to do, or what standard of care youre getting.
I had an engine block bored some years ago, before i really got into engines, (a kid basically :rolleyes).
Turned out the guy had overbored the cylinders to such a degree that when it was assembled it had so much piston slap it sounded like a diesel.
Ever since then ive been "picky" to say the least about who i use, and do all the other work myself, even to fabricating the intercooler for the GT4.
A lot of this is probably down to your 'contract' with the builder and what was said. Did you ask for new bolts? Did he offer new bolts? Maybe he thought your bolts were nearly new and therefore reusable. I don't think you will win this argument but you should be able to strike a reasonable compromise. Perhaps have a word with Trading Standards.
If I had built your engine, say with your original bolts which failed then I would offer to meet you half way in settlement. Hope you get a reasonable settlement.
If I had built your engine, say with your original bolts which failed then I would offer to meet you half way in settlement. Hope you get a reasonable settlement.
An engine builder who did mine,said that the waste of money people spend on X flow head bolts,as the standard ones are tough enough.The headgasket is usually the problem,I always used Ajusa gaskets on 145 bhp with standard bolts( not going to argue with the professional engine builder) and was sweet.I know he saw 208bhp on a X flow on the dyno with standard bolts too!!!
I would have thought this would be covered under the 'fitness for purpose' clause in consumer law that states that a vendor must sell you a product which is fit for the purpose for which it is intended. You are entitled to a refund if this turns out not to be the case. The job they did wasn't fit for the purpose, a highly stressed engine with substandard parts for the stress they were to be put under.
I would suggest a chat with a solicitor who deals with consumer claims through the small claims courts might be in order.
Good luck whatever.
I would suggest a chat with a solicitor who deals with consumer claims through the small claims courts might be in order.
Good luck whatever.
Following the 'fit for purpose' line Nev, I'd suggest that the distance you travelled with the new engine has some bearing on this matter.
If it went 2,000 miles down the road they could say it's something you did, but (correct me if I'm wrong) 100 miles running proves a build error IMHO.
T/.
If it went 2,000 miles down the road they could say it's something you did, but (correct me if I'm wrong) 100 miles running proves a build error IMHO.
T/.
Fit for the purpose does spring to mind but it's still a very grey area. An engine has many internal parts including the head bolts. Any of which could be faulty as could a batch of gaskets. The difficulty would arise at court proving it was the bolts which were at fault and proving you asked for all new parts. What if the vendor suggests your engine was pinking or detonating. He could easily cast significant doubt on your own evidence. Do you want to instruct expert witnesses? If the vendor invoiced you for a new cylinder block as a precaution you would be mighty miffed to say the least. It's not an area I want to find myself in which is why I would take the negotiated route everytime. That way you aren't likely to lose any more money. Also, it's a much happier feeling when everybody comes to a satisfactory arrangement and good for business to.
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