Alfa Romeo or Lancia
Discussion
Can't help with Alfas, but I have owned a Fulvia's for over 20 years. Depends what you are looking to use the car for as to which you may want.
The purest car is the S1 (65-70) I would avoid the 1200 cars and go for the 1300, there is also the 1.6hf which was the homolgation car for the works rally efforts but they are rather like the GTA to the 105. The S1 are lighter to drive, have a lovely 4 speed 'box and Dunlop brakes (which can be a pain).
S2 cars (71-73) have a better heater, Girling brakes and a 5 speed box (otherwise essentially the same). They are not quite as light to drive but with the Girling brakes and 5 speed box a better every day proposition.
S3 cars (74-76) are as S2 but with a different interior (velour seats and white dials).
There is the 1600 version of the S2 (not the same as the S1 1.6). These are heavier to drive, but faster. They run on 12mm racing plugs and irregular or short runs will plague you with fouled plugs. And you have the Zagato versions. Mechanically very similar to the standard.
As an every day car the 1300 is the better (probably a good S3 as they seem to command less than an S2 but are the same car).
As ever with a 35+yr old car, condition of bodyshell is paramount. Despite what the urban myths would have you believe Lancias are no better or worse than anything else.
The attraction with the Fulvia is the quality of the Lancia engineering when compared to what else was around (Autocar tested a Fulvia against a 105 at the time and the Fulvia came out top, just !), but I suspect the Alfa feels a bit more sporty. Either is a very good choice, but my vote is the Fulvia
Here are some links:
Lancia Motor Club
The best Fulvia site
If you are contemplating a restoration rather than buying a "good" car this what you are letting yourself in for..........
My restoration
The purest car is the S1 (65-70) I would avoid the 1200 cars and go for the 1300, there is also the 1.6hf which was the homolgation car for the works rally efforts but they are rather like the GTA to the 105. The S1 are lighter to drive, have a lovely 4 speed 'box and Dunlop brakes (which can be a pain).
S2 cars (71-73) have a better heater, Girling brakes and a 5 speed box (otherwise essentially the same). They are not quite as light to drive but with the Girling brakes and 5 speed box a better every day proposition.
S3 cars (74-76) are as S2 but with a different interior (velour seats and white dials).
There is the 1600 version of the S2 (not the same as the S1 1.6). These are heavier to drive, but faster. They run on 12mm racing plugs and irregular or short runs will plague you with fouled plugs. And you have the Zagato versions. Mechanically very similar to the standard.
As an every day car the 1300 is the better (probably a good S3 as they seem to command less than an S2 but are the same car).
As ever with a 35+yr old car, condition of bodyshell is paramount. Despite what the urban myths would have you believe Lancias are no better or worse than anything else.
The attraction with the Fulvia is the quality of the Lancia engineering when compared to what else was around (Autocar tested a Fulvia against a 105 at the time and the Fulvia came out top, just !), but I suspect the Alfa feels a bit more sporty. Either is a very good choice, but my vote is the Fulvia
Here are some links:
Lancia Motor Club
The best Fulvia site
If you are contemplating a restoration rather than buying a "good" car this what you are letting yourself in for..........
My restoration
Edited by nc107 on Tuesday 1st January 10:15
Edited by nc107 on Tuesday 1st January 10:18
Edited by nc107 on Tuesday 1st January 10:22
OK thats the Fulvia, nice cars especially the HF homologation ones. A few points about the 105 coupe's then.
I remember reading the comparative test too and it was a very close run thing, I thought the 105 came out on top, but perhaps it was how you interpret the conclusion
In todays world though the 105 probably does make more sense. they are more plentiful and I would suggest the parts and specialist supply is more advanced with the Alfa's than the Lancias.
Good points about the 105's, arguably nicer looking, but it's going to come down to taste. Generally faster and probably easier to find genuine improvement in performance. RWD with an LSD if you pick the right one, at the end of the day it's more fun then FWD and these cars are about having fun after all.
105 Coupes or Bertone's come in various forms;
Sprint GT.
Step front design 1600cc aluminum twin cam with twin double choke carbs, five speed box, Dunlop disc brakes alround, Double wishbone front suspension, live rear axle on trailing arms with locating yoke.
Sprint GTA
Homologation special twin plug cylinder head aluminium body panels, VERY EXPENSIVE.
Sprint GT Veloce
Improved version of the sprint, with slightly nicer interior and a bit more power.
1300 Gt Junior
Similar to the first sprints but with a 1300cc version of the same engine, slightly more sparten interior.
1750 GTV
Revised bodyshell without the stepped bonnet front, but with four headlights. 1789cc version of the engine with a good chunk more power, totally revised interior with better seats and instrumentation. ATE brakes later ones duel circuit with twin servo's
2000 GTV
Slightly revised front grill still with four headlamps, revised interior but generally not as attractive as the earlier cars. Yet more power up to about 140BHP now standard LSD.
1600 Gt Junior
Similar body shell and interior to the 200GTV but with slightly less equipment and a 1600cc motor.
There were a few other variations, including a two headlamp 1300Gtj very much like a 1750GTV.
Also lots of cars have been mixed and matched as they were generally compatible with each other so you will find 1300GTj's with 2000cc engines etc etc
I remember reading the comparative test too and it was a very close run thing, I thought the 105 came out on top, but perhaps it was how you interpret the conclusion
In todays world though the 105 probably does make more sense. they are more plentiful and I would suggest the parts and specialist supply is more advanced with the Alfa's than the Lancias.
Good points about the 105's, arguably nicer looking, but it's going to come down to taste. Generally faster and probably easier to find genuine improvement in performance. RWD with an LSD if you pick the right one, at the end of the day it's more fun then FWD and these cars are about having fun after all.
105 Coupes or Bertone's come in various forms;
Sprint GT.
Step front design 1600cc aluminum twin cam with twin double choke carbs, five speed box, Dunlop disc brakes alround, Double wishbone front suspension, live rear axle on trailing arms with locating yoke.
Sprint GTA
Homologation special twin plug cylinder head aluminium body panels, VERY EXPENSIVE.
Sprint GT Veloce
Improved version of the sprint, with slightly nicer interior and a bit more power.
1300 Gt Junior
Similar to the first sprints but with a 1300cc version of the same engine, slightly more sparten interior.
1750 GTV
Revised bodyshell without the stepped bonnet front, but with four headlights. 1789cc version of the engine with a good chunk more power, totally revised interior with better seats and instrumentation. ATE brakes later ones duel circuit with twin servo's
2000 GTV
Slightly revised front grill still with four headlamps, revised interior but generally not as attractive as the earlier cars. Yet more power up to about 140BHP now standard LSD.
1600 Gt Junior
Similar body shell and interior to the 200GTV but with slightly less equipment and a 1600cc motor.
There were a few other variations, including a two headlamp 1300Gtj very much like a 1750GTV.
Also lots of cars have been mixed and matched as they were generally compatible with each other so you will find 1300GTj's with 2000cc engines etc etc
Me again, got distracted by the telly.
Some more thoughts on the Bertone's.
Rust!.. it's no use explaining it away they are old and Italian, they rust. They were never protected well and some of the steel used was of Russian origin, recycled T34 Tanks probably!. However most of the panels are available and it's possible to rescue some horrendous looking wrecks if you have the money and the skills. Many cars have been restored, but some of the one's done in the eighties made use of some pretty ropey shaped panels and a fair bit of bodging, so look carefully at the undersides.
The mechanical components are generally very well made, the Engine is a gem, an Aluminium block and head with cast iron wet liners which can be replaced. The Crankshaft runs in five bearings and the bottom ends are very strong. The top end has twin chain driven camshafts which have vernier timing for adjustability of the valve timing. There is a good choice of cam profiles for all uses fast road, race or just normal. Carbs are usually Webbers or Delorto's though you may come across the odd Solex equipped car. American spec cars from the 1750GTV onward had SPICA fuel injection although they are few and far between on this side of the pond. A number of owners have fitted the later 2.0 twinspark version of the engine from the Alfa 75, which is a relatively easy way of seeing the thick end of 175BHP.
The transmission is strong and as mentioned 2000GTV's and some 1750GTV's had a ZF LSD, when adjusted right this really transforms the handling. The gearboxes are a delight to use with excellently spread ratio's. Second gear synchros' can be a bit dodgy though and you need to be carefull going up or down into second. Th clutch is strong and has a good action, most are hyrdaulic, though some cars are cable.
I have a 1750GTV with roughly standard engine spec on Webbers, it's running at about 135BHP and has a really flat torque curve giving a good spread of power from 2000rpm right through to 5500 (or more at times!). The car feels lively and is easily capable of running at modern motor way speeds all day long.
The standard suspension set up is reasonably good, but over the years various companies have developed handling kits with better damping, springing and bigger anti roll bars. I use mine for road rallying and with it's firmer springs thicker FARB and Bilstein dampers it's a pretty competitive machine. Stops well too even on standard discs and green stuff pads.
They are reasonably comfortable though the pedal position can take some getting used too, being very offset and floor mounted. The engines sound wonderfully crisp and love to rev, especially the smaller ones. There is a fair amount of wind noise above about 60MPH and you can't expect modern standards of refinement I'm afraid.
For the money I don't think there is a better classic car, it's good looking, fast, reliable, even quite practical with plenty of space for two a good size boot and room for small children back.
Some more thoughts on the Bertone's.
Rust!.. it's no use explaining it away they are old and Italian, they rust. They were never protected well and some of the steel used was of Russian origin, recycled T34 Tanks probably!. However most of the panels are available and it's possible to rescue some horrendous looking wrecks if you have the money and the skills. Many cars have been restored, but some of the one's done in the eighties made use of some pretty ropey shaped panels and a fair bit of bodging, so look carefully at the undersides.
The mechanical components are generally very well made, the Engine is a gem, an Aluminium block and head with cast iron wet liners which can be replaced. The Crankshaft runs in five bearings and the bottom ends are very strong. The top end has twin chain driven camshafts which have vernier timing for adjustability of the valve timing. There is a good choice of cam profiles for all uses fast road, race or just normal. Carbs are usually Webbers or Delorto's though you may come across the odd Solex equipped car. American spec cars from the 1750GTV onward had SPICA fuel injection although they are few and far between on this side of the pond. A number of owners have fitted the later 2.0 twinspark version of the engine from the Alfa 75, which is a relatively easy way of seeing the thick end of 175BHP.
The transmission is strong and as mentioned 2000GTV's and some 1750GTV's had a ZF LSD, when adjusted right this really transforms the handling. The gearboxes are a delight to use with excellently spread ratio's. Second gear synchros' can be a bit dodgy though and you need to be carefull going up or down into second. Th clutch is strong and has a good action, most are hyrdaulic, though some cars are cable.
I have a 1750GTV with roughly standard engine spec on Webbers, it's running at about 135BHP and has a really flat torque curve giving a good spread of power from 2000rpm right through to 5500 (or more at times!). The car feels lively and is easily capable of running at modern motor way speeds all day long.
The standard suspension set up is reasonably good, but over the years various companies have developed handling kits with better damping, springing and bigger anti roll bars. I use mine for road rallying and with it's firmer springs thicker FARB and Bilstein dampers it's a pretty competitive machine. Stops well too even on standard discs and green stuff pads.
They are reasonably comfortable though the pedal position can take some getting used too, being very offset and floor mounted. The engines sound wonderfully crisp and love to rev, especially the smaller ones. There is a fair amount of wind noise above about 60MPH and you can't expect modern standards of refinement I'm afraid.
For the money I don't think there is a better classic car, it's good looking, fast, reliable, even quite practical with plenty of space for two a good size boot and room for small children back.
velocemitch said:
OK thats the Fulvia, nice cars especially the HF homologation ones. A few points about the 105 coupe's then.
I remember reading the comparative test too and it was a very close run thing, I thought the 105 came out on top, but perhaps it was how you interpret the conclusion
aux contraire, and I quote:I remember reading the comparative test too and it was a very close run thing, I thought the 105 came out on top, but perhaps it was how you interpret the conclusion
"Which would I chose/ There is so little in it that I am not at all sure. The Alfa is more spacious and better finished. The Lancia on the other hand fits me better and is less fussy in traffic. Since I consider the last two attributes particulalry important, I would probably choose the Lancia - but only just"
More seriously there were many more 105 variants built than Fulvias and of course the engine type was fitted to many Alfas, so if outright power is a requirement a 1750/2000 Alfa will always give better HP. There are definately more Alfa specialists as a result of the number of cars around, but there are enough Fulvia specialists around and pretty much everything is availble (sometimes at a price). Tuning of the 1300 engine is possible (cams, carbs, pistons etc), plenty of peapole do it and race and rally. 1600s are more specialist, and engine bits can be expensive.
Both a very special cars, one developed by the factory into a circuit winner the other into a rally winner.
nc107 said:
aux contraire, and I quote:
"Which would I chose/ There is so little in it that I am not at all sure. The Alfa is more spacious and better finished. The Lancia on the other hand fits me better and is less fussy in traffic. Since I consider the last two attributes particulalry important, I would probably choose the Lancia - but only just"
Hmmmmm...I think to come down to those two reasons shows just how close the cars must be!! "Fitting" a car is always going to be a personal thing. As for being fussy in traffic I can't imagine either will be completely docile next to a modern, but then again I would hardly call the Alfa hard work unless you are running some very lumpy cams. "Which would I chose/ There is so little in it that I am not at all sure. The Alfa is more spacious and better finished. The Lancia on the other hand fits me better and is less fussy in traffic. Since I consider the last two attributes particulalry important, I would probably choose the Lancia - but only just"
I think the thing that would swing it for me would be spares and specialist help availability near to the original poster.
Edited by Wombat Rick on Wednesday 2nd January 19:31
Fair enough
I like them both too, I fell on the Alfa through getting hooked on them with a 156.
The comparative test was between a Fulvia and a 1300GTj, I think I would head for the Lancia between those two as well. I haven't driven a 1300 to be fair but I love the grunt of the 1750 so would miss it with only a hundred BHP to play with.
It's a shame Alfa never really developed the Giulia for rallying, they were competitive for a short while, but were quickly overshadowed by Escorts and the like. It would be good to see them taking the fight to the Fords in the current Historic Stage rallying, even the Fulvia's can only hope for class wins on these events.
I like them both too, I fell on the Alfa through getting hooked on them with a 156.
The comparative test was between a Fulvia and a 1300GTj, I think I would head for the Lancia between those two as well. I haven't driven a 1300 to be fair but I love the grunt of the 1750 so would miss it with only a hundred BHP to play with.
It's a shame Alfa never really developed the Giulia for rallying, they were competitive for a short while, but were quickly overshadowed by Escorts and the like. It would be good to see them taking the fight to the Fords in the current Historic Stage rallying, even the Fulvia's can only hope for class wins on these events.
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