Help value this 60's Griffith
Discussion
There is an old Griff racer here in Australia with the chassis rebuilt, all suspension rebuilt, sitting pretty on Minilite-style wheels. Her body is very rough, there are no body moulds from which to make new wings, bonnet etc. No glass, no interior.
She was well known in Australian "Modsports" racing in the 70s until approx 1981. I'veseen a video of her overtaking 911's on the outside of bends! She had several wins and many places, often made fastest laps, and was almost written off in two separate racing accidents, only to return to the track once again. In her final racing season she was running with about 320bhp and was on 10" wide rims all round. She had the optional Salisbury Jaguar diff with inboard rear discs and specially made halfshafts, as these had a habit of breaking. Much of the front suspension had been rose-jointed and wishbones re-fabricated to strengthen and stiffen them. As I said the chassis is rebuilt and there is a 302 Windsor in place, from a donor race car, condition of engine unknown although it is running.
What would she be worth in this state? I want to start a conversation with the owner of ten years to see if he'll part with her to allow me to complete the rebuild. I have never owned a Griff before but am still in love with my 1971 Vixen S3. I dunno how to post photos on here or I would show you her condition. I can email to anyone interested.
Thanks for your thoughts and advice.
She was well known in Australian "Modsports" racing in the 70s until approx 1981. I'veseen a video of her overtaking 911's on the outside of bends! She had several wins and many places, often made fastest laps, and was almost written off in two separate racing accidents, only to return to the track once again. In her final racing season she was running with about 320bhp and was on 10" wide rims all round. She had the optional Salisbury Jaguar diff with inboard rear discs and specially made halfshafts, as these had a habit of breaking. Much of the front suspension had been rose-jointed and wishbones re-fabricated to strengthen and stiffen them. As I said the chassis is rebuilt and there is a 302 Windsor in place, from a donor race car, condition of engine unknown although it is running.
What would she be worth in this state? I want to start a conversation with the owner of ten years to see if he'll part with her to allow me to complete the rebuild. I have never owned a Griff before but am still in love with my 1971 Vixen S3. I dunno how to post photos on here or I would show you her condition. I can email to anyone interested.
Thanks for your thoughts and advice.
I guess the market is different "down under" to here (UK) or even across the pond (USA). Here I've seen cars with FIA papers and "ready to race" for £30K. There are also Vixen projects on this site for under £3K. So the smart answer is between those two figures. (qv*)
In the UK the market for historic racers appears to some extent to be based on what can you enter, and will you win. Do the modification allow one to enter a FIA race for Pre 66 cars? Would the car be competative without the modifications? What would you want from the car?
The business way of valuing a restoration project would be to take the finished values, and subtract the cost of restoration, although I guess not many restorations would then be done. Also if the owner has had the car for 10 years then you might have to make an attractive offer for him to sell - he may be dreaming of £30K - just a lick of paint need! Or you might get him on a good day and it's yours cheap.
What is it worth to you?
* This site shows Grantura - at £5K, £20K and £32K (asking)
http://www.cottageclassics.co.uk/tvr/granturasfors...
In the UK the market for historic racers appears to some extent to be based on what can you enter, and will you win. Do the modification allow one to enter a FIA race for Pre 66 cars? Would the car be competative without the modifications? What would you want from the car?
The business way of valuing a restoration project would be to take the finished values, and subtract the cost of restoration, although I guess not many restorations would then be done. Also if the owner has had the car for 10 years then you might have to make an attractive offer for him to sell - he may be dreaming of £30K - just a lick of paint need! Or you might get him on a good day and it's yours cheap.
What is it worth to you?
* This site shows Grantura - at £5K, £20K and £32K (asking)
http://www.cottageclassics.co.uk/tvr/granturasfors...
Is the car a Griffith 200 or a Griffith 400?
The value of an old racecar that is modified and might need a complete rebuild is almost impossible to predict. Most likely the complete chassis would have to be rebuilt or replaced and it sounds like most of the bodywork needs replacment as well.. Neither can the 302 engine be used for historic racing. Expensive rebuilds!
To me this sounds like a vehicle that is an interesting "time document" of the evolution of the racecar. It should be keept the way it is!
The Granturas linked to in the post above are all mk II. They are cheaper than the later Mk III and Mk IV (and Vixen S1), as they have the less competitive torsion bar chassis, so you can't really use them for comparison.
A mk III and IV Granturas would possibly be a better match as it is almost the same car as a Griffith... ...but they don't have Griffith VIN and that's what you pay for...
I would love to see photos of the car!
EDIT: Added some text after posting for the fist time.
The value of an old racecar that is modified and might need a complete rebuild is almost impossible to predict. Most likely the complete chassis would have to be rebuilt or replaced and it sounds like most of the bodywork needs replacment as well.. Neither can the 302 engine be used for historic racing. Expensive rebuilds!
To me this sounds like a vehicle that is an interesting "time document" of the evolution of the racecar. It should be keept the way it is!
The Granturas linked to in the post above are all mk II. They are cheaper than the later Mk III and Mk IV (and Vixen S1), as they have the less competitive torsion bar chassis, so you can't really use them for comparison.
A mk III and IV Granturas would possibly be a better match as it is almost the same car as a Griffith... ...but they don't have Griffith VIN and that's what you pay for...
I would love to see photos of the car!
EDIT: Added some text after posting for the fist time.
Edited by Grantura SWE on Friday 21st December 07:18
I have yet to see an economically viable rebuild of an early TVR, unless you do everything yourself and don't count your own time. The only cost effective way to get one, particularly for racing, is to buy one someone else has already invested a shed load of money in and then spend a lot more yourself.
There is a huge difference in the value of MkI/II Grannies, MkIIIs and Griffiths and roadgoing or proven, sorted, race cars. Spadge's site gives a good indication for Grannies but MKIIs aren't competitive and Chris Dady's MKIII had never raced and didn't have FIA papers. Most of the well prepared FIA race cars go for very big money, that's if you can get someone to sell one.
As for Griffiths, when was the last one you saw for sale WITH papers? If I had seen a 'ready to race' FIA Griff for 30,000 I'd have bought it or been trampled in the rush. There's a huge difference between a well used bitsa with 302 engine, big brakes etc etc and an immaculate FIA eligible Griff. (Anyone checked with Peter Knight how much for a full race, legal, 289 engine?). I believe Tim Fish paid £85,000 for the ex Cambridge Motorsport car, a couple of years ago. I doubt you would get John Shipman's car for less than £100,000 (and I bet it cost him a lot more than that to build). Even a sound road-going Griff in the UK would be well over £30,000.
If the car is in need of restoration you must assume a body off chassis rebuild and renewal or replacement of all major mechanical components. If you want to race it, think of a number and double it. Then double it again. If you want the car you will have to pay what the guy thinks it's worth whether or not you feel it is justified - where will you find another one?
Given the value of the dollar finding and shipping one from the US is probably the most cost effective means of getting a car at the moment.
Richard
There is a huge difference in the value of MkI/II Grannies, MkIIIs and Griffiths and roadgoing or proven, sorted, race cars. Spadge's site gives a good indication for Grannies but MKIIs aren't competitive and Chris Dady's MKIII had never raced and didn't have FIA papers. Most of the well prepared FIA race cars go for very big money, that's if you can get someone to sell one.
As for Griffiths, when was the last one you saw for sale WITH papers? If I had seen a 'ready to race' FIA Griff for 30,000 I'd have bought it or been trampled in the rush. There's a huge difference between a well used bitsa with 302 engine, big brakes etc etc and an immaculate FIA eligible Griff. (Anyone checked with Peter Knight how much for a full race, legal, 289 engine?). I believe Tim Fish paid £85,000 for the ex Cambridge Motorsport car, a couple of years ago. I doubt you would get John Shipman's car for less than £100,000 (and I bet it cost him a lot more than that to build). Even a sound road-going Griff in the UK would be well over £30,000.
If the car is in need of restoration you must assume a body off chassis rebuild and renewal or replacement of all major mechanical components. If you want to race it, think of a number and double it. Then double it again. If you want the car you will have to pay what the guy thinks it's worth whether or not you feel it is justified - where will you find another one?
Given the value of the dollar finding and shipping one from the US is probably the most cost effective means of getting a car at the moment.
Richard
Fiscracer said:
I have yet to see an economically viable rebuild of an early TVR, unless you do everything yourself and don't count your own time. The only cost effective way to get one, particularly for racing, is to buy one someone else has already invested a shed load of money in and then spend a lot more yourself.
There is a huge difference in the value of MkI/II Grannies, MkIIIs and Griffiths and roadgoing or proven, sorted, race cars. Spadge's site gives a good indication for Grannies but MKIIs aren't competitive and Chris Dady's MKIII had never raced and didn't have FIA papers. Most of the well prepared FIA race cars go for very big money, that's if you can get someone to sell one.
As for Griffiths, when was the last one you saw for sale WITH papers? If I had seen a 'ready to race' FIA Griff for 30,000 I'd have bought it or been trampled in the rush. There's a huge difference between a well used bitsa with 302 engine, big brakes etc etc and an immaculate FIA eligible Griff. (Anyone checked with Peter Knight how much for a full race, legal, 289 engine?). I believe Tim Fish paid £85,000 for the ex Cambridge Motorsport car, a couple of years ago. I doubt you would get John Shipman's car for less than £100,000 (and I bet it cost him a lot more than that to build). Even a sound road-going Griff in the UK would be well over £30,000.
If the car is in need of restoration you must assume a body off chassis rebuild and renewal or replacement of all major mechanical components. If you want to race it, think of a number and double it. Then double it again. If you want the car you will have to pay what the guy thinks it's worth whether or not you feel it is justified - where will you find another one?
Given the value of the dollar finding and shipping one from the US is probably the most cost effective means of getting a car at the moment.
Richard
Yep.There is a huge difference in the value of MkI/II Grannies, MkIIIs and Griffiths and roadgoing or proven, sorted, race cars. Spadge's site gives a good indication for Grannies but MKIIs aren't competitive and Chris Dady's MKIII had never raced and didn't have FIA papers. Most of the well prepared FIA race cars go for very big money, that's if you can get someone to sell one.
As for Griffiths, when was the last one you saw for sale WITH papers? If I had seen a 'ready to race' FIA Griff for 30,000 I'd have bought it or been trampled in the rush. There's a huge difference between a well used bitsa with 302 engine, big brakes etc etc and an immaculate FIA eligible Griff. (Anyone checked with Peter Knight how much for a full race, legal, 289 engine?). I believe Tim Fish paid £85,000 for the ex Cambridge Motorsport car, a couple of years ago. I doubt you would get John Shipman's car for less than £100,000 (and I bet it cost him a lot more than that to build). Even a sound road-going Griff in the UK would be well over £30,000.
If the car is in need of restoration you must assume a body off chassis rebuild and renewal or replacement of all major mechanical components. If you want to race it, think of a number and double it. Then double it again. If you want the car you will have to pay what the guy thinks it's worth whether or not you feel it is justified - where will you find another one?
Given the value of the dollar finding and shipping one from the US is probably the most cost effective means of getting a car at the moment.
Richard
My Griffen which has an accurate "read OLD" original Brazed chassis and all of the correct bits will stand me at £30k built, and that is without the 289 engine, mine is a 302 based block with 289 heads. £30k is me doing the bulk of the work and lots of help from mates.
You can bank on 40k worth of parts for an Fia car plus about 30k labour for someone else to nail one together. I think an acurate 289 with all period tuning bits is around 15k at the moment.
That said I haven't seen many real griffiths with papers that are as faithful as mine to the concept of original. but they do have the all important vin tag.
my solution is to go and race in less anally retentive race series. the whole issue of originality is farcical when racing is mentioned in the same sentence.
Bottom line is that Scrap is worth scrap value, unfortunately if the Aussie griffith is real then someone will pay a stupid amount of money for the bit pop riveted to the bulkhead and will then throw the rest away to build an original griffith.
Its a shame people think this way. restoration to me is about saving something old and using it as intended.
So if the aussie griff has continous history and the mods over time are documented, Isn't it more original than the other so called original cars out there?
Neil.
Edited by heightswitch on Saturday 22 December 15:43
I have photos of the car but can't work out how to post them on here. If I could enlist the help of someone, maybe I could email them to you for your uploading? I think it maybe harder as I use an Apple Mac.
The car has already been stripped, chassis rebuilt etc. The photos show this. The car is a 1964 car but don't know if a 200 or 400. What was the difference? Is one rarer or more collectible than the other?
I am away on hols for the next 3 weeks in NZ, but will occasionally have the chance to log on so if anyone wanted to upload those photos on my behalf please shout with your email address.
Happy New Year!
Nick
The car has already been stripped, chassis rebuilt etc. The photos show this. The car is a 1964 car but don't know if a 200 or 400. What was the difference? Is one rarer or more collectible than the other?
I am away on hols for the next 3 weeks in NZ, but will occasionally have the chance to log on so if anyone wanted to upload those photos on my behalf please shout with your email address.
Happy New Year!
Nick
200 has rear end like a MKIII Grantura ie rounded with sparco lights, 400 has cam tail like 1800S and MkII Cortina rear lights. I believe there are other mods too - chassis is slightly different/stronger on 400 and it runs Jag diff rather than MGB
If you look at my Pistonheads ID it shows my 400
If you cant post on here post onto Photobucket or Flickr and give us the link
R
If you look at my Pistonheads ID it shows my 400
If you cant post on here post onto Photobucket or Flickr and give us the link
R
Edited by Fiscracer on Friday 28th December 15:27
Fiscracer said:
200 has rear end like a MKIII Grantura ie rounded with sparco lights, 400 has cam tail like 1800S and MkII Cortina rear lights. I believe there are other mods too - chassis is slightly different/stronger on 400 and it runs Jag diff rather than MGB
If you look at my Pistonheads ID it shows my 400
If you cant post on here post onto Photobucket or Flickr and give us the link
R
Unless its a rebuilt 200 with 400 back end, of which there are many. ho hum. or a retro fitted salisbury because many 200's went back to be modified in the 60's.If you look at my Pistonheads ID it shows my 400
If you cant post on here post onto Photobucket or Flickr and give us the link
R
Edited by Fiscracer on Friday 28th December 15:27
after looking at many 200 and 400 models over the past couple of years I realised that it is pointless trying to differentiate. 200 / 400 are all different but the same if you know what i mean
I would love to see some pics.
Have you a chassis number? I may have some info.
Neil.
nickpage said:
There is an old Griff racer here in Australia with the chassis rebuilt, all suspension rebuilt, sitting pretty on Minilite-style wheels. Her body is very rough, there are no body moulds from which to make new wings, bonnet etc. No glass, no interior.
She was well known in Australian "Modsports" racing in the 70s until approx 1981. I'veseen a video of her overtaking 911's on the outside of bends! She had several wins and many places, often made fastest laps, and was almost written off in two separate racing accidents, only to return to the track once again. In her final racing season she was running with about 320bhp and was on 10" wide rims all round. She had the optional Salisbury Jaguar diff with inboard rear discs and specially made halfshafts, as these had a habit of breaking. Much of the front suspension had been rose-jointed and wishbones re-fabricated to strengthen and stiffen them. As I said the chassis is rebuilt and there is a 302 Windsor in place, from a donor race car, condition of engine unknown although it is running.
What would she be worth in this state? I want to start a conversation with the owner of ten years to see if he'll part with her to allow me to complete the rebuild. I have never owned a Griff before but am still in love with my 1971 Vixen S3. I dunno how to post photos on here or I would show you her condition. I can email to anyone interested.
Thanks for your thoughts and advice.
Nick,She was well known in Australian "Modsports" racing in the 70s until approx 1981. I'veseen a video of her overtaking 911's on the outside of bends! She had several wins and many places, often made fastest laps, and was almost written off in two separate racing accidents, only to return to the track once again. In her final racing season she was running with about 320bhp and was on 10" wide rims all round. She had the optional Salisbury Jaguar diff with inboard rear discs and specially made halfshafts, as these had a habit of breaking. Much of the front suspension had been rose-jointed and wishbones re-fabricated to strengthen and stiffen them. As I said the chassis is rebuilt and there is a 302 Windsor in place, from a donor race car, condition of engine unknown although it is running.
What would she be worth in this state? I want to start a conversation with the owner of ten years to see if he'll part with her to allow me to complete the rebuild. I have never owned a Griff before but am still in love with my 1971 Vixen S3. I dunno how to post photos on here or I would show you her condition. I can email to anyone interested.
Thanks for your thoughts and advice.
Its worth what someone will pay for it. Period.
In my eyes it's worth two rolls of sheep tip, no more than any other spoiled old car. Most value as spares.
The amusing thought that the car should be valued in the ratio of worth against expenditure would have all correctly restored cars given away with a cheque for the difference...and a big one at that.
Edited by Daftlad on Friday 28th December 19:44
Edited by Daftlad on Friday 28th December 19:52
Daftlad said:
nickpage said:
There is an old Griff racer here in Australia with the chassis rebuilt, all suspension rebuilt, sitting pretty on Minilite-style wheels. Her body is very rough, there are no body moulds from which to make new wings, bonnet etc. No glass, no interior.
She was well known in Australian "Modsports" racing in the 70s until approx 1981. I'veseen a video of her overtaking 911's on the outside of bends! She had several wins and many places, often made fastest laps, and was almost written off in two separate racing accidents, only to return to the track once again. In her final racing season she was running with about 320bhp and was on 10" wide rims all round. She had the optional Salisbury Jaguar diff with inboard rear discs and specially made halfshafts, as these had a habit of breaking. Much of the front suspension had been rose-jointed and wishbones re-fabricated to strengthen and stiffen them. As I said the chassis is rebuilt and there is a 302 Windsor in place, from a donor race car, condition of engine unknown although it is running.
What would she be worth in this state? I want to start a conversation with the owner of ten years to see if he'll part with her to allow me to complete the rebuild. I have never owned a Griff before but am still in love with my 1971 Vixen S3. I dunno how to post photos on here or I would show you her condition. I can email to anyone interested.
Thanks for your thoughts and advice.
Nick,She was well known in Australian "Modsports" racing in the 70s until approx 1981. I'veseen a video of her overtaking 911's on the outside of bends! She had several wins and many places, often made fastest laps, and was almost written off in two separate racing accidents, only to return to the track once again. In her final racing season she was running with about 320bhp and was on 10" wide rims all round. She had the optional Salisbury Jaguar diff with inboard rear discs and specially made halfshafts, as these had a habit of breaking. Much of the front suspension had been rose-jointed and wishbones re-fabricated to strengthen and stiffen them. As I said the chassis is rebuilt and there is a 302 Windsor in place, from a donor race car, condition of engine unknown although it is running.
What would she be worth in this state? I want to start a conversation with the owner of ten years to see if he'll part with her to allow me to complete the rebuild. I have never owned a Griff before but am still in love with my 1971 Vixen S3. I dunno how to post photos on here or I would show you her condition. I can email to anyone interested.
Thanks for your thoughts and advice.
Its worth what someone will pay for it. Period.
In my eyes it's worth two rolls of sheep tip, no more than any other spoiled old car. Most value as spares.
The amusing thought that the car should be valued in the ratio of worth against expenditure would have all correctly restored cars given away with a cheque for the difference...and a big one at that.
Edited by Daftlad on Friday 28th December 19:44
Edited by Daftlad on Friday 28th December 19:52
my missus bought me this......................
its 1957 vintage and totally original
heightswitch said:
just ignore him Nick, he is only vexed cos his x-mas present wasn't up to much
Joking aside, where do you think I am wrong in what I said??
I like the lathe by the way..are you currently manufacturing nylon bushes for the race car with it??
Edited by Daftlad on Saturday 29th December 06:49
Daftlad said:
heightswitch said:
just ignore him Nick, he is only vexed cos his x-mas present wasn't up to much
Joking aside, where do you think I am wrong in what I said??
I like the lathe by the way..are you currently manufacturing nylon bushes for the race car with it??
Edited by Daftlad on Saturday 29th December 06:49
I shall quote that to you when you are selling the M with racing pedigree
The lathe purchase is purely to make my workshop look like an engineer lives in it. lisa did ask why I didn't just buy the bushes
Dad is a time served turner so will be imparting some knowledge very soon.
heightswitch said:
I shall quote that to you when you are selling the M with racing pedigree
Ah I see, you think there the situation is similar....Ex factory race car with documented history and all correct running gear vs errr no. Nothing like the same.
You should know me better..And it's not going to be for sale...not unless some old V8 engined 1960s Griffith replicas are quicker next season
.Daftlad said:
heightswitch said:
I shall quote that to you when you are selling the M with racing pedigree
Ah I see, you think there the situation is similar....Ex factory race car with documented history and all correct running gear vs errr no. Nothing like the same.
You should know me better..And it's not going to be for sale...not unless some old V8 engined 1960s Griffith replicas are quicker next season
.heightswitch said:
Daftlad said:
heightswitch said:
I shall quote that to you when you are selling the M with racing pedigree
Ah I see, you think there the situation is similar....Ex factory race car with documented history and all correct running gear vs errr no. Nothing like the same.
You should know me better..And it's not going to be for sale...not unless some old V8 engined 1960s Griffith replicas are quicker next season
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