Need upgraded brakes for 1600m please advise

[0038VX]

Hey there.. For a budget racer project were looking for an affordable brake upgrade. Can someone advice?

All suggestions welcome

De Soldaat van Oranje

Edited by Soldaat van O. on Wednesday 21st November 19:01

[Soldaat van O.]

By the way, 0038vx changed his name to Soldaat van oranje.

[timelord]

1600Ms don't need much doing to the brakes or they will lock wheels too easily being a lighter car than other Ms,a set of uprated pads from Adrian Venn for £77 make a great difference, possibly change the master cylinder and servo for the later Ford type is about as far as you need to go even for track use.

[Soldaat van O.]

Thanx Timelord! Ill have alook at those pads!

[brittanytvr]

Hello,
which model of Ford if you can help( Cortina??), I need to buy a new servo and master cylinder to complete my car to replace the incomplete tr6 one!!
Thanks
Chris

[Seabass]

Timelord - the Ford Master Cylinder is of the same bore as the TR6. Why do you suggest that it maybe beneficial to upgrade. Is the servo better? I'm also about to invest in TR6 cyl/servo for my Vixen S3.

Thanks
James

[Adrian@]

Seabass said:

Timelord - the Ford Master Cylinder is of the same bore as the TR6. Why do you suggest that it maybe beneficial to upgrade. Is the servo better? I'm also about to invest in TR6 cyl/servo for my Vixen S3.

Thanks
James

Hi James, I will answer that for Geoff, The later master cylinder, fits onto the servo with the standard setup adjustment, but whereas the early master cylinder relies on the remote 5 way valve to route fluid to opposing corners if one corner fails, (I front disc X i rear shoe) the later cylinder has all the safety inside the master cylinder and splits the system (front to rear either discs or shoes) and does away with the 5 way valve. With minor changes to pipework you have a much safer braking system. (add a joiner to the rear pipe, and redo the front pipes, (noting, that the new master cylinder connections are then metric)
Adrian@

Edited by Adrian@ on Sunday 25th November 16:03

[timelord]

Thanks Adrian I was going to say that.......I think (knew there was a reason). The change of pad is truly amazing, like putting 4-pots on, no I'm not on commission from Adrian.

[Seabass]

OK - so let me get this right...

By five way valve are you referring to the PDWA because this isn't any form of 'diverting valve' and has nothing to do proportioning braking force - simply alerting the driver of a brake circuit failure. When passing through the PDWA the brakes are front/rear split.

By removing the PDWA / not installing one surely you get the same end result as you suggest by changing the mcyl? ie Having simple front rear split without having to fuss maintaining the valve. A better indication is to incorporate a fluid level sensor IMHO anway like a modern tintop.

The brakes were never a cross split anyway were they? The master cylinder has different bores internally for the front and rear for brake balance. They brakes were front/rear split in the TR6. This article is very informative. http://lotus-europa.com/files/mc%20rebuild.pdf

You seem to refer to the PDWA in this thread too...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Later master cylinder is Girling from what car? It fits onto the TR6 servo?

Still confused here!

Thanks in advance.

Edited by Seabass on Sunday 25th November 18:55

[Adrian@]

Seabass said:

OK - so let me get this right...

By five way valve are you referring to the PDWA because this isn't any form of 'diverting valve' and has nothing to do proportioning braking force - simply alerting the driver of a brake circuit failure. When passing through the PDWA the brakes are front/rear split.

By removing the PDWA / not installing one surely you get the same end result as you suggest by changing the mcyl? ie Having simple front rear split without having to fuss maintaining the valve. A better indication is to incorporate a fluid level sensor IMHO anway like a modern tintop.

The brakes were never a cross split anyway were they? Surely the master cylinder has different bores internally for the front and rear for brake balance. They brakes were front/rear split in the TR6.

You seem to refer to the PDWA in this thread too...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Later master cylinder is Girling from what car? It fits onto the TR6 servo?

Still confused here!

Thanks in advance.

Edited by Seabass on Sunday 25th November 18:37

I am refering to the PDWA, (Pressure Warning Differential Actuator) and this, when a corner fails has a shuttle within the valve that diverts the fluid to opposing corners and at the same time tiggers an earth out to the dash, there is nothing to confuse you, and you are correct, the later master cylinder with a cap from a Saab 99 will give you the fluid low level using the same wiring that was to the PWDA (I refer to it as the 5 way valve as non tech people see that for what it is and as these are obsolete and now non-sevicable, also they were 100+ukp to purchase) The later master cylinder has exit bores suited to difference in pressure to the F/R and an internal tip valve that does actually hold pressure to the front rear in a leak situation (at the second press of the pedal and this is why you would want to change), this fits the TR6 servo. I do sell the master cylinder but can no longer supply the resevior (obviously the later cars that come into me already have them) upgrading the Vixen requires a different M/C to the 3000M as the exit hole to the rear brakes is different.
Adrian@

Edited by Adrian@ on Sunday 25th November 19:37

[Seabass]

mmmm. We seem to have differing opinions of the function performed by the PDWA. I'll say again.

Seabass said:

The PDWA isn't any form of 'diverting valve' and has nothing to do proportioning braking force - simply alerting the driver of a brake circuit failure. When passing through the PDWA the brakes are front/rear split.

The TR6 master cylinder is a split dual master cylinder. If one circuit fails the other continues... The trip valve (also in the TR6 cylinder) is irrelevant. It has two different bore diameters in one unit with related outputs - one to the front brakes, one to the rear.

Explain how the braking system can be of a cross type split as opposed to front/rear split if you would?

Again - why should I change?

Edited by Seabass on Sunday 25th November 21:35

[Adrian@]

In all this, your thoughts are assuming that the PDWA will fail in a distinct way every time, but that is not the case, the fact that these are left to their own devices on some cars for perhaps 30 years and even when car have been laid up ignored, unserviced.... if a rear cylinder fails then the shuttle can lockout a single front caliper and although the master cylinder works correctly. What we are talking about is ownership of 53 TVR's and working on them for 30 years, expierence of and problem solving customers cars where brakes have failed and having brakes fail on me.
(I along with AP Lockheed looked into an accident as to why a TVR had crashed.
Having been rebuilt by the owner, when it was out on it's first major drive, grabbed on one corner under braking? We found that the owner apart from using copperease to put the rear cylinder seals into place, ignored the PDWA, in doing this the 'O'rings failed and blocked the front caliper, writing off the car, AND along with the electric fuel pump with no pump cutout system (it was pumping fuel around, after the car had come to rest!) I would never want a system without a fluid level system, a new late master cylinder is 84.00 the TR6 version is 130.00.
Adrian@

Edited by Adrian@ on Sunday 25th November 22:18

[ed_crouch]

Chaps,

Been following this thread, and have a question:

When the shuttle moves (say) to the right, after a leak/failure of the circuit fed by the right hand chamber in the valve, does the shuttle block fluid flow to that circuit?

Thanks,

Ed.

[Seabass]

The shuttle is tapered at the end in a cylindrical bore so fluid can still flow - I have one on the bench in pieces although it will never make its way onto my car...

This is extremely informative about the true function of the PDWA:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040229065356/www.buck...

HTH JC

[ed_crouch]

Yep, thought so!

However, I may have been an arse and connected the lines the wrong way around: I didnt know it was a stepped bore cylinder, so I shall go check now.

Thanks for that link: good page.

Ed.

[pumpkin]

So is there a specification number for the Ford master cylinder? TransAtlantic shipping is so expensive that us Canadians always like to try to find the part in the US or Canada.

[ed_crouch]

The old Lucas number was PMF226. Fits a UK Mk5 Ford cortina 1.6.