Discussion
I thought i'd start a thread where people could write about their experiences of test driving Porsches, friendliness of dealer if applicable, and any interesting snippets whilst in the pursuit of a 'new' Porsche.
So, on Saturday I popped down to Camtune (having rang first) with an interest in test-driving cars in the sub 35K bracket. This nicely encapsulated 993 C2, and Turbo 2's both of which they had. On my arrival, there was a reasonable amount of prescreening before anyone took me seriously. I'd explained that for one reason or another I wouldn't be buying until January, but wanted to start the process now so that when January came it was just a matter of finding a good example of the car I wanted.
Given that disclosure I was persuaded not to bother with the T2 as it was a rare car and will probably have sold by then. Must admit I was a bit disappointed by this but couldn't fault the argument.
So, after all this banter we took out a 993 C2 with tip-tronic (sic). I had expressly said that I was a manual man, so to speak, and automatics are for girls, etc, etc. But a bit of salemans chitchat and we were out in a tip-tronic (TT). The guy was very chatty and helpfully spent a lot of time explaining the dynamics of the car and the TT transmission. Most of these were backed up with practical demonstrations.
All I can say is ******* hell. Fantastic car. I'd been disappointed with 3.2s that I had driven before, but this was in a different league. It just pulls to the red line in every gear with absolutely no let up. And the TT gearbox was great (never thought i'd say that). OK, 0-60 times are slower but in real world driving the TT is fantastic, and probably a good bit quicker (over taking etc). One of the demonstrations was how good TT can be when you get things a bit wrong (over cooking it into a corner). A lesson on grip and a very clever gear box.
Demonstrations over and it was my turn. I was a bit nervous, I must admit, given that I don't drive autos and especial expensive ones with lots of clever bits and pieces. Anyway two seconds later I felt completely at home and was positively encouraged to give it some stick. It all felt very natural and being able to change gear so quickly and with significantly less mental overhead allowed me to really enjoy the car. Anyway I’m completely taken by the car and very happy with the service I got from Camtune. I will certainly pay them a visit come January.
So, on Saturday I popped down to Camtune (having rang first) with an interest in test-driving cars in the sub 35K bracket. This nicely encapsulated 993 C2, and Turbo 2's both of which they had. On my arrival, there was a reasonable amount of prescreening before anyone took me seriously. I'd explained that for one reason or another I wouldn't be buying until January, but wanted to start the process now so that when January came it was just a matter of finding a good example of the car I wanted.
Given that disclosure I was persuaded not to bother with the T2 as it was a rare car and will probably have sold by then. Must admit I was a bit disappointed by this but couldn't fault the argument.
So, after all this banter we took out a 993 C2 with tip-tronic (sic). I had expressly said that I was a manual man, so to speak, and automatics are for girls, etc, etc. But a bit of salemans chitchat and we were out in a tip-tronic (TT). The guy was very chatty and helpfully spent a lot of time explaining the dynamics of the car and the TT transmission. Most of these were backed up with practical demonstrations.
All I can say is ******* hell. Fantastic car. I'd been disappointed with 3.2s that I had driven before, but this was in a different league. It just pulls to the red line in every gear with absolutely no let up. And the TT gearbox was great (never thought i'd say that). OK, 0-60 times are slower but in real world driving the TT is fantastic, and probably a good bit quicker (over taking etc). One of the demonstrations was how good TT can be when you get things a bit wrong (over cooking it into a corner). A lesson on grip and a very clever gear box.
Demonstrations over and it was my turn. I was a bit nervous, I must admit, given that I don't drive autos and especial expensive ones with lots of clever bits and pieces. Anyway two seconds later I felt completely at home and was positively encouraged to give it some stick. It all felt very natural and being able to change gear so quickly and with significantly less mental overhead allowed me to really enjoy the car. Anyway I’m completely taken by the car and very happy with the service I got from Camtune. I will certainly pay them a visit come January.
Nice to hear about your experience with Camtune. Almost all Porsche specialists are pleasant to deal with, and it helps a lot if you sit down and discuss your plans with them. Sincerity matters! I had excellent treatment from Town & County in Aberdeen when ordering my 996 Tiptronic, and they offered me a test drive, which I declined due to having researched the alternatives thoroughly and found nothing likely to suit.
The 996 Tiptronic was the only car which fitted my exact requirements, and I have the strange belief that in a situation like this it's up to me to suit the car and not vice-versa, so a test drive might have been counter-productve! After years with automatic 928s (the manual box didn't suit the 928 so well) I thought I knew it all, but now that I have the 996 I realise that I was guilty of plain lazy thinking!
The choice of automatic or fingertip manual - or a combination of both, depending on the driving situation, is fantastic, and although it has taken a little while to get used to it I am deeply impressed. I hadn't realised how far technology had progressed, and for everyday press-on use you're probably quicker from A to B with this system than you are with a manual. So don't waver - give it a try, and good luck!!
The 996 Tiptronic was the only car which fitted my exact requirements, and I have the strange belief that in a situation like this it's up to me to suit the car and not vice-versa, so a test drive might have been counter-productve! After years with automatic 928s (the manual box didn't suit the 928 so well) I thought I knew it all, but now that I have the 996 I realise that I was guilty of plain lazy thinking!
The choice of automatic or fingertip manual - or a combination of both, depending on the driving situation, is fantastic, and although it has taken a little while to get used to it I am deeply impressed. I hadn't realised how far technology had progressed, and for everyday press-on use you're probably quicker from A to B with this system than you are with a manual. So don't waver - give it a try, and good luck!!
I had great test drives with both AFN Reading and Guildford. Although it did take the usual few minutes of cash waving to get through the very initial "Sir has the unutterable temerity to consider purchasing a *Porsche*"...thing.
After that I got a very good service complete with encouragement to push the loud pedal down..
I also noticed turning up in a TVR caused a bit of a stir. Hah. Even more fun when I told 'em I WASN'T trading it in! I think AFN were a bit *confused* for a minute or two....
I bought one so they can't have done much wrong really...
Think I'll have to order my next one shortly.
After that I got a very good service complete with encouragement to push the loud pedal down..
I also noticed turning up in a TVR caused a bit of a stir. Hah. Even more fun when I told 'em I WASN'T trading it in! I think AFN were a bit *confused* for a minute or two....
I bought one so they can't have done much wrong really...
Think I'll have to order my next one shortly.
By the way UV. You didn't consider a Boxster (preferably S) in your deliberations then? Need the rear seats? I've been very happy with mine - contrary to popular opinion they are great fun to drive - although not the quickest thing to come out of the Porsche factory. And the two boots are surprisingly practical...
I'm sure Boxster S is a great car, but I do want that extra performance. I have zero concern for practicality (apart from to get my golf clubs in). I think Porsche have an interesting problem with the Boxster, it has so much potential but I doubt they'll ever produce one that will upstage the 911 (not that it couldn't be done...)
quote:
I'm sure Boxster S is a great car, but I do want that extra performance. I have zero concern for practicality (apart from to get my golf clubs in). I think Porsche have an interesting problem with the Boxster, it has so much potential but I doubt they'll ever produce one that will upstage the 911 (not that it couldn't be done...)
I personally think that the Ruf Boxster could be the answer. You have the brilliant Boxster chassis, the soft top, but 911 performance. Better than handing over the cash for a soft top 911, the price of which I think is a deliberate insult.
Rgds, WalterU
The real problem isn't how to get performance out of the Boxster, but the way in which it has been marketed. Porsche has made a big thing out of it being affordable, which is a good thing, unless you want something that isn't. Personally I like Q cars, so much fun to be had at the lights 
) so am already stretched. This is a pity because i'm a big fan of horses, especially large groups of them hiding under the bonnet of my car. Although if any of you lot like golf and want to rent a villa...Popped into Evans Halshaw, Stourbridge (nr. Kidderminster) and chatted to a pleasant salesman about testing a 996. After ignoring his smarmy comment about the new Turbo having 'only 420 BHP, Sir' I asked about a C4 Manual. Being nearly 4pm I arranged to return the following Saturday to go out in a car and have another chat.
Come Thursday I called to confirm and was told I'd be welcomed with open arms - just the kind of response I'd expect from a Porsche man dealer. Saturday came and off I toddled down towards Tourbridge, having travelled up from London and staying in Birmingham the night before.
Go into the showroom and ask for the man himself, only to be told that it was his day off. The only thing left to do was go home, having decided that the best course of action was to call the dealership back on Monday morning and inform them that I hadn't intended to make a 250+ mile round trip for nothing, ruining my weekend in the process.
Although I got an earful of apologies and promises of "I'll come to you" and "I won't do it again", I don't think I'll be buying a Porsche.
Come Thursday I called to confirm and was told I'd be welcomed with open arms - just the kind of response I'd expect from a Porsche man dealer. Saturday came and off I toddled down towards Tourbridge, having travelled up from London and staying in Birmingham the night before.
Go into the showroom and ask for the man himself, only to be told that it was his day off. The only thing left to do was go home, having decided that the best course of action was to call the dealership back on Monday morning and inform them that I hadn't intended to make a 250+ mile round trip for nothing, ruining my weekend in the process.
Although I got an earful of apologies and promises of "I'll come to you" and "I won't do it again", I don't think I'll be buying a Porsche.
Ted,
fool am I and wise are you.
Went back to aforementioned dealers on Saturday (19/01) and was greeted by a Guards Red GT3 just waiting for me to crawl over. After a few minutes of quiet contemplation I was prised away to head out in a lovely 996 C2 coupe.
What a car. Being my first 911 experience I can't comment on whether or not the 'experience' has been diluted over the years as many journos would have us believe, all I know is that it's one hell of a car. All the toys I could ever want, nice engine sound comfy seats (in the front: girlfriend sat in the back and complained - girls, they just don't understand!), and shedloads of performance.
What really impressed me though, aside from the build quality (hewn from granite) and the perfomance, was how quickly I felt at home in the car. Nice, direct steering, supportive seats and pedals perfectly positioned for heel-and-toeing all meant that there was little to intimidate the first time driver.
Admittedly I was being very careful given the damp and slightly muddy roads, but even at normal speeds the car was extremely communicative.
So: a gorgeous shape, (in)decent performance and a great driver's car (for my money, at least) to boot. Now I think I'll make some comparisons with Blackpool's finest!
fool am I and wise are you.
Went back to aforementioned dealers on Saturday (19/01) and was greeted by a Guards Red GT3 just waiting for me to crawl over. After a few minutes of quiet contemplation I was prised away to head out in a lovely 996 C2 coupe.
What a car. Being my first 911 experience I can't comment on whether or not the 'experience' has been diluted over the years as many journos would have us believe, all I know is that it's one hell of a car. All the toys I could ever want, nice engine sound comfy seats (in the front: girlfriend sat in the back and complained - girls, they just don't understand!), and shedloads of performance.
What really impressed me though, aside from the build quality (hewn from granite) and the perfomance, was how quickly I felt at home in the car. Nice, direct steering, supportive seats and pedals perfectly positioned for heel-and-toeing all meant that there was little to intimidate the first time driver.
Admittedly I was being very careful given the damp and slightly muddy roads, but even at normal speeds the car was extremely communicative.
So: a gorgeous shape, (in)decent performance and a great driver's car (for my money, at least) to boot. Now I think I'll make some comparisons with Blackpool's finest!
OK, the 993 I had my eye on (P plate with 43K, tip-tronic...) has been sold. Doh. I'm now faced with the choice of waiting for another good example to pop up or go for a 91 Turbo 2 with 26K on the clock. It looks fantastic, and i'll take it for a test drive in the next week.
I'd be interested in people opinions/experiences of this car (i assume it doesn't suffer the 964 oil leak problems given it's a 930 derivative???)
I'd be interested in people opinions/experiences of this car (i assume it doesn't suffer the 964 oil leak problems given it's a 930 derivative???)
Sorry, that caught me off guard. Sensible answer now. Yes, 965 Turbo 2s will leak oil from the barrels - but the best thing is that you can spot leaking heads easily as there is no undertray, like there is on a 964. It inhibited cooling on the 965 engine, apparently.
So, look under the rear of the car for oil drips. I myself have walked away from such a Turbo 2.
All Turbo engines are also prone to leaking from their other many oil connections. Oil consumption is also generally a bit higher, often because the pistons are slightly undersize for expansion purposes and because the turbo burns a bit.
All AFAIK.
Cheers
Domster
PS I believe the factory solved the tendency for 964s to leak from barrels in about 1992, so not all will suffer from the problem.
Edited by domster on Tuesday 22 January 16:09
So, look under the rear of the car for oil drips. I myself have walked away from such a Turbo 2.
All Turbo engines are also prone to leaking from their other many oil connections. Oil consumption is also generally a bit higher, often because the pistons are slightly undersize for expansion purposes and because the turbo burns a bit.
All AFAIK.
Cheers
Domster
PS I believe the factory solved the tendency for 964s to leak from barrels in about 1992, so not all will suffer from the problem.
Edited by domster on Tuesday 22 January 16:09
Hi there UV,
"Is the 3.3 really just a tuned 930 or is it a smaller capacity 965 3.6 and hence dual-mass FW/dual plugs?"
The 3.3 Turbo 2 uses the same engine as the previous outgoing 930, AFAIK. This is because they couldn't develop a turbo'd version of the 3.6 engine in time. So I presume it doesn't have dual ignition and a dodgy dual mass flywheel. Not sure re tuning. Didn't the 930 go from 270bhp to 300bhp to 320bhp during its life? Not sure.
"If I do end up with a leaker, what's required to get it sorted, or will I only prolong the next incident?"
Leaking heads is a risk on any car, not just 911s. However, some models were more prone to it than others, often because the head studs weren't up to the job, and could expand too much. It is simply a case of getting them taken off, and put on again properly, with new gaskets, studs etc. This is a 'drop the engine out' job I believe, so it is unlikely to be cheap. I'd budget 500-1000 quid at a friendly independent specialist, double that at a main dealer.
Some people with 964s have converted to '993 barrels' at the same time, to avoid any recurrence of the problem. So there was some design improvement as well - not sure of precise details.
However, remember that many 911s are driving around with oil slightly leaking from the heads, with no ill effects apart from slightly increased oil 'consumption'. My friend with an early 964 doesn't really mind if they do leak a bit (he can't tell anyway, because of his undertray). I don't want to overstate the whole problem, as it is relatively minor, but it is worth bearing in mind if buying a 911 made before 1992/93.
"Did you have chance to drive the car you walked away from? If so what did you think?"
Nah, it was stuck in the centre of a showroom, and the leaking barrels put me off, along with the fact it had new rear wings on both sides... obviously thrashed and trashed. I walked away sharpish.
I know people with Turbo 2s who swear by them, but I have never driven one myself. I quite like the 3.6 myself, mainly for looks.
Rgds
Domster
Edited by domster on Wednesday 23 January 13:29
"Is the 3.3 really just a tuned 930 or is it a smaller capacity 965 3.6 and hence dual-mass FW/dual plugs?"
The 3.3 Turbo 2 uses the same engine as the previous outgoing 930, AFAIK. This is because they couldn't develop a turbo'd version of the 3.6 engine in time. So I presume it doesn't have dual ignition and a dodgy dual mass flywheel. Not sure re tuning. Didn't the 930 go from 270bhp to 300bhp to 320bhp during its life? Not sure.
"If I do end up with a leaker, what's required to get it sorted, or will I only prolong the next incident?"
Leaking heads is a risk on any car, not just 911s. However, some models were more prone to it than others, often because the head studs weren't up to the job, and could expand too much. It is simply a case of getting them taken off, and put on again properly, with new gaskets, studs etc. This is a 'drop the engine out' job I believe, so it is unlikely to be cheap. I'd budget 500-1000 quid at a friendly independent specialist, double that at a main dealer.
Some people with 964s have converted to '993 barrels' at the same time, to avoid any recurrence of the problem. So there was some design improvement as well - not sure of precise details.
However, remember that many 911s are driving around with oil slightly leaking from the heads, with no ill effects apart from slightly increased oil 'consumption'. My friend with an early 964 doesn't really mind if they do leak a bit (he can't tell anyway, because of his undertray). I don't want to overstate the whole problem, as it is relatively minor, but it is worth bearing in mind if buying a 911 made before 1992/93.
"Did you have chance to drive the car you walked away from? If so what did you think?"
Nah, it was stuck in the centre of a showroom, and the leaking barrels put me off, along with the fact it had new rear wings on both sides... obviously thrashed and trashed. I walked away sharpish.
I know people with Turbo 2s who swear by them, but I have never driven one myself. I quite like the 3.6 myself, mainly for looks.
Rgds
Domster
Edited by domster on Wednesday 23 January 13:29
Domster, thanks for the replies. Although I would like to spend more time tinkering with cars I haven't, so when it comes to looking over a potential car I'm not really sure what to look for. I will almost certainly be buying from Camtune in Surrey (the car is on their web site if you are interested), and hope they are honest guys and don't sell me a lemon.
So, if I turn up and take this Turbo 2 out what are the signs of a problematic engine (a part from oil all over the place). Will I have easy access to view the cylinder head/head bolts. Would a problem likely be visible after a 20min test drive? The car in question only has 26k on the clock, in your view am I likely to suffer problems from perished ancillaries (given it probably hasn't been serviced that often) and general under use?
Apologies if these are basic questions but now its actually about to happen i'm getting nervous about spending 35k.
So, if I turn up and take this Turbo 2 out what are the signs of a problematic engine (a part from oil all over the place). Will I have easy access to view the cylinder head/head bolts. Would a problem likely be visible after a 20min test drive? The car in question only has 26k on the clock, in your view am I likely to suffer problems from perished ancillaries (given it probably hasn't been serviced that often) and general under use?
Apologies if these are basic questions but now its actually about to happen i'm getting nervous about spending 35k.
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