Discussion
A friend of mine is looking at a 1990 Mini which has been re-shelled due to an accident but with a good second-hand shell. It was apparently done professionally. How does he stand with the VIN number? Would a Mini of this age have the VIN stamped on a plate which is pop-rivetted to the bonnet shut panel like older cars, or would it be stamped into the body somewhere? If thet's the case, could the car be registered as the donor shell's details, or would this still be 'iffy'?
Thanks for your help.
Thanks for your help.
"Re-shelling" a car using a second hand shell is a minefield. There used to be a points system, ie large components of the 'donor' car, for example, engine, subframes, suspension etc had a number of 'points'. You had to have a certain number of 'points' for it to be done legally. I've got a feeling this has now changed but I may be wrong.
Taking the identity of the donor car is illegal and called ringing. If the car has been done 'professionally' then has the guy not got any paperwork to prove that it was done legally and passed by the DVLA?
Don't get me started on people ringing cars......!
Taking the identity of the donor car is illegal and called ringing. If the car has been done 'professionally' then has the guy not got any paperwork to prove that it was done legally and passed by the DVLA?
Don't get me started on people ringing cars......!
He could just get a tax exempt V5 on ebay, go and steal someones Mk1 whatever and register it as his own.
The DVLA really couldn't give 2 shits, even though the back of the V5 offers you a big fine and a prison stretch for doing so. I think the document also belongs to them and selling it without the car is an offence.... but really, it doesn't matter, unless your car gets nicked.
The DVLA really couldn't give 2 shits, even though the back of the V5 offers you a big fine and a prison stretch for doing so. I think the document also belongs to them and selling it without the car is an offence.... but really, it doesn't matter, unless your car gets nicked.
In reality, the bodyshell is just another 'part number'. Admittedly it has a unique identity number stamped on it, but there is always the chance that the place where the ID is stamped will need replacing due to the rust bug taking hold. So oong as stolen parts are not used and the 'wrong' number is left in place there will be no problems. Re-shelling is established as the only way of completing restorations these days. Just make sure that all the numbers tie-up with the V5 once the project is finished, take it for an MoT where the tester will note the body number on the MoT and there will be no problem. If, however, the body number does not tie-up with the V5 at the time of MoT, you may expect a possible problem.
Thanks for all your help.
I knew it would be a minefield and I suppose it's like this to stop people nicking cars and claiming they're theirs! I've also heard about people doing this with old tax exempt cars and changing the body plates - but in those days (early 70's) the VIN plates were simply rivited onto the bodywork and were easy to change. Does anyone know where the VIN number would be stamped on a 1990's aged Mini just so he can check to see if it's there?
I knew it would be a minefield and I suppose it's like this to stop people nicking cars and claiming they're theirs! I've also heard about people doing this with old tax exempt cars and changing the body plates - but in those days (early 70's) the VIN plates were simply rivited onto the bodywork and were easy to change. Does anyone know where the VIN number would be stamped on a 1990's aged Mini just so he can check to see if it's there?
im not going to get into the rights and wrongs.
but.
a 1990's shell will have the vin stamped into the lip of the scuttle in line with the master cylinders.
if its had a new heritage scuttle it wont be there.
if its had the number cut out you should be able to see/feel where the new bit has been welded in.
ask yourself one question.
why would a 1990s mini (i.e not worth much(from a logbook point of view, its hardley a mk1 cooper s!) be reshelled into another secondhand shell? - if the secondhand shell was a good car, then why was it stripped just to get a shell????
ive seen it all at work with dodgy cars, nothing surprises me and im amazed how devious, ignorant and just plain criminal (deleate as appropriate) people can be with minis and v5's.....................
but.
a 1990's shell will have the vin stamped into the lip of the scuttle in line with the master cylinders.
if its had a new heritage scuttle it wont be there.
if its had the number cut out you should be able to see/feel where the new bit has been welded in.
ask yourself one question.
why would a 1990s mini (i.e not worth much(from a logbook point of view, its hardley a mk1 cooper s!) be reshelled into another secondhand shell? - if the secondhand shell was a good car, then why was it stripped just to get a shell????
ive seen it all at work with dodgy cars, nothing surprises me and im amazed how devious, ignorant and just plain criminal (deleate as appropriate) people can be with minis and v5's.....................
no
the vin only started getting stamped into the lip in the late 1980's. roundabout the introduction of the servo
i have seen the odd early 1980s car with the number stamped in the boot lid hole lip, but only one or two.
the only other cars that ever seemed to have the chassis number stamped anywhere where mk1's that occasionaly have the number part only stamped onto the flat part of the triangle stifner on the bulkhead.
they where stamped with normal number stamps, unlike the later vin stamps which where dot punched.
the vin only started getting stamped into the lip in the late 1980's. roundabout the introduction of the servo
i have seen the odd early 1980s car with the number stamped in the boot lid hole lip, but only one or two.
the only other cars that ever seemed to have the chassis number stamped anywhere where mk1's that occasionaly have the number part only stamped onto the flat part of the triangle stifner on the bulkhead.
they where stamped with normal number stamps, unlike the later vin stamps which where dot punched.
As soon as the panel which has the stamped number is replaced during repair or restoration the shell is, effectively, 'neutralised'. An MoT tester only wants to see a VIN plate with a number which corresponds to the V5, so, really, it's just not an issue. Unless, of course, you turn up with a shell with one number and a V5 with another, at which time the MoT tester could do anything from ignoring it to calling the 'Old Bill'.
CarMac said:
"Re-shelling" a car using a second hand shell is a minefield. There used to be a points system, ie large components of the 'donor' car, for example, engine, subframes, suspension etc had a number of 'points'. You had to have a certain number of 'points' for it to be done legally. I've got a feeling this has now changed but I may be wrong.
Taking the identity of the donor car is illegal and called ringing. If the car has been done 'professionally' then has the guy not got any paperwork to prove that it was done legally and passed by the DVLA?
Don't get me started on people ringing cars......!
Taken from the DVLA website...(my bold)...Taking the identity of the donor car is illegal and called ringing. If the car has been done 'professionally' then has the guy not got any paperwork to prove that it was done legally and passed by the DVLA?
Don't get me started on people ringing cars......!
Vehicles that have been rebuilt using a mix of new or used parts -
In order to retain the original registration mark:
cars and car-derived vans must use:
The original unmodified chassis or unaltered bodyshell (i.e. body and chassis as one unit - monocoque); or a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original supported by evidence from the dealer or manufacturer (e.g. receipt).
And two other major components from the original vehicle - ie suspension (front & back); steering assembly; axles (both); transmission or engine.
If a second-hand chassis or monocoque bodyshell is used, the vehicle must pass a an enhanced single vehicle approval (ESVA) or single vehicle approval (SVA) test after which a "Q" prefix registration number will be allocated.
I would imagine that getting even a 1990 Mini through SVA could be interesting to say the least...
Hmmm...
I shall now recount my own experience, from which you can take what you will.
Ground up rebuild. Many donors, one with log book and desirable number plate - the clue is in the username. Basically I took the plates off WRX, layed them on the workshop floor and ditched the shell. Rolled the decent shell in from another car, bolted everything on including the WRX plates and hey presto WRX was back on the road. Everything was fine until the electronic MOTs came in. The discrepancy between the VIN on the car and on the V5 flagged up and I received a letter from Swansea.
It turns out you aren't really allowed to do this. With Monocoque bodies like the Mini, the registration of the car stays with the body, unless a NEW replacement is purchased (for which proof of purchase is required).
Didn't really think anything of it at the time (I was only 16), but it's actually quite a serious offence. The nice man from the DVLA didn't really seem to mind though and as I hadn't tried to cover anything up they just ordered me to change back to the original plates.
However, thinking about it now, if I had the inclination, it would not have been hard to completely change the ID of the car. Bit of filler on the scuttle and a new ally plate from my local Mini specialist - job done.
It sound like your mate's car is in a similar situation to mine. He'd better hope that if anything does crop up at the MOT, it turns out the "new" shell isn't nicked or written off.
DISCLAIMER: I'm not a lawyer or owt. Just going on what I gathered from my experience. Anything stated above may very well be wrong.
I shall now recount my own experience, from which you can take what you will.
Ground up rebuild. Many donors, one with log book and desirable number plate - the clue is in the username. Basically I took the plates off WRX, layed them on the workshop floor and ditched the shell. Rolled the decent shell in from another car, bolted everything on including the WRX plates and hey presto WRX was back on the road. Everything was fine until the electronic MOTs came in. The discrepancy between the VIN on the car and on the V5 flagged up and I received a letter from Swansea.
It turns out you aren't really allowed to do this. With Monocoque bodies like the Mini, the registration of the car stays with the body, unless a NEW replacement is purchased (for which proof of purchase is required).
Didn't really think anything of it at the time (I was only 16), but it's actually quite a serious offence. The nice man from the DVLA didn't really seem to mind though and as I hadn't tried to cover anything up they just ordered me to change back to the original plates.
However, thinking about it now, if I had the inclination, it would not have been hard to completely change the ID of the car. Bit of filler on the scuttle and a new ally plate from my local Mini specialist - job done.
It sound like your mate's car is in a similar situation to mine. He'd better hope that if anything does crop up at the MOT, it turns out the "new" shell isn't nicked or written off.
DISCLAIMER: I'm not a lawyer or owt. Just going on what I gathered from my experience. Anything stated above may very well be wrong.
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