Oh dear, a Jag Employee
Discussion
robm3 said:
Would you in Mike Cross's position (Head Chassis guy at Jag yes?) allow your team to drive a M3???
Basically, yes, in fact I would encourage it. I would want full history and evaluation on the car however as in what broke, how much it cost to repair, how long it took, how customer service dealt with customers, which bits of the car where really good/bad, which bits fell off in 20 seconds and generally get an engineers perspective on how your own product could be improved. Sort off a nice little evaluation of rivals products as well pulling apart the oily bits after XYZ “real world” miles to see how things had lasted and compare the results to Jaguars current range of products 
.IMO Jaguar as a brand is in a bit of trouble, but it need not be the end if they are willing to take some risks and Ford invest a lot more money.
speedy_thrills said:
robm3 said:
Would you in Mike Cross's position (Head Chassis guy at Jag yes?) allow your team to drive a M3???
Basically, yes, in fact I would encourage it. I would want full history and evaluation on the car however as in what broke, how much it cost to repair, how long it took, how customer service dealt with customers, which bits of the car where really good/bad, which bits fell off in 20 seconds and generally get an engineers perspective on how your own product could be improved. Sort off a nice little evaluation of rivals products as well pulling apart the oily bits after XYZ “real world” miles to see how things had lasted and compare the results to Jaguars current range of products .IMO Jaguar as a brand is in a bit of trouble, but it need not be the end if they are willing to take some risks and Ford invest a lot more money.
Sorry Rob - but I think your post is at best naive.
Secondly you'd want to encourage passion - not just for the brand but for cars as a whole. If a chassis developer only ever had access to his own designs imagine how stunted the development curve would be.
robm3 said:
You'll have to take this with a pinch of salt as it's only my opinion here but...
Salt administered. Carry on robm3 said:
this was like an admission that he's not doing his job very well! I mean he was one of the guy's on development team.
How many times have you worked somewhere and known the product you're working on was fatally compromised in some way? Either through design, budget, management, process etc. Without knowing the internal factors within the Jag chassis design dept you'll never know. Assuming he's crap at his job is a fairly obvious pitfall.robm3 said:
it was like talking to a Public Servant (no disrespect intended)
err how can there be no disrespect intended here? An obvious implication all public servants are disengaged and ill-motivatedrobm3 said:
I guess we could have caught him on a bad day
We all have them!robm3 said:
If I was in his position the least I could have done is get an S-Type R and 'tweak' the suspension so it is a half decent car and fly the loyalty brand.
Err so all Honda employees must drive Hondas, all Armani employees must wear Armani, all Toshiba employees are only allowed Toshiba TVs? Seems a little narrow minded to me.robm3 said:
Would you in Mike Cross's position (Head Chassis guy at Jag yes?) allow your team to drive a M3???
Absolutely. Go to any top rate automotive design/development house and I'm willing to bet bodyparts you'll see a whole range of different makes in the car park. Firstly I'd encourage it - you want to learn from others in the marketplace so you can take the best bits away.Secondly you'd want to encourage passion - not just for the brand but for cars as a whole. If a chassis developer only ever had access to his own designs imagine how stunted the development curve would be.
robm3 said:
In summary maybe our Jag man was just depressed about the current situation but either way he was a pretty uninspiring individual.... Too many blokes like that and Jag most definitely will be sold to Korea or the like (Nanjing anyone??)...
Well every workforce has them and you were there to make that judgement, but some of your comments feel to me to be closed and sweeping?Ok, so my take on this:
1) Jaguar is being sold from underneath this chap - who knows what will happen now - mortgages anyone?
2) Most manufacturers have supremely talented people - its not the individuals that make the difference, its the "brand management" and marketing people who do. Engineers just do their bidding.
3) He might not rate his own products - but then again, he knows more than you or I anyway
4) Given a small bunch of talented engineers, anyone can produce a dynamically excellent car - the trick is getting it to meet with road legislation for world marketings AND making it reliable. Think back to where Jaguar were a few years ago?
5) Chief test pilot for Lambo drove a Fiat Punto 1.1 - why drive anything else? Its just a job in the end. I am sure the fun of driving day in and day out might seem good on the outside, but I am sure its tiring to say the least.
Maybe this chap isnt the life and soul of a party. But hey, neither is Bill Gates and he's the richest man in the world! I wouldnt like to have dinner with him either
1) Jaguar is being sold from underneath this chap - who knows what will happen now - mortgages anyone?
2) Most manufacturers have supremely talented people - its not the individuals that make the difference, its the "brand management" and marketing people who do. Engineers just do their bidding.
3) He might not rate his own products - but then again, he knows more than you or I anyway
4) Given a small bunch of talented engineers, anyone can produce a dynamically excellent car - the trick is getting it to meet with road legislation for world marketings AND making it reliable. Think back to where Jaguar were a few years ago?
5) Chief test pilot for Lambo drove a Fiat Punto 1.1 - why drive anything else? Its just a job in the end. I am sure the fun of driving day in and day out might seem good on the outside, but I am sure its tiring to say the least.
Maybe this chap isnt the life and soul of a party. But hey, neither is Bill Gates and he's the richest man in the world! I wouldnt like to have dinner with him either
steelej said:
So the S-type R isn't remotely like the M3?
John.
Umm, not really, no.John.
One is a high performance coupe, widely regarded as the handling benchmark for such cars, the other is a sported up, faster version of a gentleman's saloon.
There's really no comparison, other than the obvious engine, 4 wheels one...
As for the other comments by the OP, i've worked at Jag, Aston, MG, and others, and they actively encourage the engineers to drive manufacturers cars.
Why should that guy not drive the handling benchmark? That way he knows better than any Jag driver how to make a Jag handle like an M3....
off_again said:
2) Most manufacturers have supremely talented people - its not the individuals that make the difference, its the "brand management" and marketing people who do. Engineers just do their bidding.
The engineer in me really objects to this sort of statement. Yes, great companies must have great marketing and brand management behind them, but without a great product to back it up you won't last long (and can you imagine ever being able to build something designed by a marketing department....
). You could also say that without great supply chain management and cost control you won't be making any money - it's the combination of all of these things that makes a great company IMHO. rustyspit said:
off_again said:
2) Most manufacturers have supremely talented people - its not the individuals that make the difference, its the "brand management" and marketing people who do. Engineers just do their bidding.
The engineer in me really objects to this sort of statement. Yes, great companies must have great marketing and brand management behind them, but without a great product to back it up you won't last long (and can you imagine ever being able to build something designed by a marketing department....). You could also say that without great supply chain management and cost control you won't be making any money - it's the combination of all of these things that makes a great company IMHO. There isnt a Jag comparable to the M3, it's in a different market place.
The S type R is out of its price range if the M3 was older- which him being an British engineer- I pressume it was
.
I think passion as an engineer is a very important quality to have, and it's often not valued by management/recruiters or exploited.
I've always driven either a Porsche or BMW, and I've worked on the Aston Martin V8 Vantage and lots of Jag engine designs over the years. It doesnt mean I think badly of the Jag or Aston stuff, they're just very different.
What compact sporting rival did Jaguar have to the 323i in the late 1970s? As that's the era of classic car I like.
Being an engineer- I'll also often select cars on their detailed engineering spec- I've always worshiped at the alter of aircooled flat sixes derrived from Beetles. This isnt an insult to Jaguar at all.
The other point of note is that often engineers at Jag- have to drive Jags every day- I used to.
I could probably have afforded a straight six Jag at the time- but it would seem odd driving around in V8 prototypes and then going home in last years straight six, for instance.
My good friend is still a manager at Jaguar now, and drives a XK series regularly but also has a Z3 M coupe as a toy. I was suprised when he said that he hated the steering of the Z3 M coupe in comparison to the XK Jag. I think it's really imporant that he has this outlook and is able to make this comparison.
The S type R is out of its price range if the M3 was older- which him being an British engineer- I pressume it was
.I think passion as an engineer is a very important quality to have, and it's often not valued by management/recruiters or exploited.
I've always driven either a Porsche or BMW, and I've worked on the Aston Martin V8 Vantage and lots of Jag engine designs over the years. It doesnt mean I think badly of the Jag or Aston stuff, they're just very different.
What compact sporting rival did Jaguar have to the 323i in the late 1970s? As that's the era of classic car I like.
Being an engineer- I'll also often select cars on their detailed engineering spec- I've always worshiped at the alter of aircooled flat sixes derrived from Beetles. This isnt an insult to Jaguar at all.
The other point of note is that often engineers at Jag- have to drive Jags every day- I used to.
I could probably have afforded a straight six Jag at the time- but it would seem odd driving around in V8 prototypes and then going home in last years straight six, for instance.
My good friend is still a manager at Jaguar now, and drives a XK series regularly but also has a Z3 M coupe as a toy. I was suprised when he said that he hated the steering of the Z3 M coupe in comparison to the XK Jag. I think it's really imporant that he has this outlook and is able to make this comparison.
Edited by Marquis_Rex on Tuesday 3rd July 14:39
rustyspit said:
off_again said:
2) Most manufacturers have supremely talented people - its not the individuals that make the difference, its the "brand management" and marketing people who do. Engineers just do their bidding.
The engineer in me really objects to this sort of statement. Yes, great companies must have great marketing and brand management behind them, but without a great product to back it up you won't last long (and can you imagine ever being able to build something designed by a marketing department....). You could also say that without great supply chain management and cost control you won't be making any money - it's the combination of all of these things that makes a great company IMHO. I hear too many stories about an engineer who has a cracking idea only for it to be put down by the product manager / brand manager / marketing manager. Some companies are open to these ideas, like the example of the SINGLE engineer from BMW who built the first 3-series touring in his spare time. Low and behold its been a very successful product over the years and something that the BMW management regarded as unworthy of a badge at the time - if it had not been for the engineer then it wouldnt have happened.
I can only imagine of the times that someone working for Jaguar came up against the old guard. Yes, the cars are very good but they could have done a lot more with the more sporting ones - take the mantle to Aston (cant compete) and Merc, but only to be told that they cannot and must make their cars softer for the "older gentleman buyer" that they seem to appeal to.
The base product that Jaguar has is extremely flexible and they have some very talented engineers. However, they continue to produce softly sprung / smooth riding cars which appeal to the traditional Jag buying market. Now thats fine, but when your cheif export market, the USA, is suffering with a strong pound then you need to try something else. They have the "R" brand but do little with it. They have the package to take the fight to BMW and Merc but dont. Ok, thats fine, but remember how poorly the original S-type was rated by the journalists? Only to have the revised model (one which the engineers lead) to be universally praised? Yep, let the engineers do something and stop penny-pinching and you might actually end up with a good car.
BMW for example is an engineering lead company and have been successful as a result. But hey, lets see what happens to Jag over the coming months.
robm3 said:
You'll have to take this with a pinch of salt as it's only my opinion here but...
I was recently over in Germany at Nurburgring (first time and absolutely brilliant!!) and ended up talking to some interesting fellows at a Hotel called Am Teigarten in the evening, all these lads were connecting in some way workwise with the Ring. One chap was a Property Developer (picked up the tab for all the drinks and meals, nice one!), another was a Driving Instructor, third was an IT chap but obviously went often. Anyhow, all diehard revheads and cleary passionate about cars and the track. A fourth bloke was from Coventry although he was a little quite so I didn't bother talking to him too much. But, next day I found out from my mate he was a chassis engineer from Jaguar.
Now the thing that kinda upset my mate and I (both wishing Jag, a Brit Instution the best) was the fact that this Chassis Engineer drove a M3 because he didn't think too much of the Jag dynamically. And it seemed to us that this was like an admission that he's not doing his job very well! I mean he was one of the guy's on development team.
Not only this (and this is an emotive part) but he was a little dull and not very enthused about driving or cars. My mate said it was like talking to a Public Servant (no disrespect intended), so we kinda summarised that this kind of individual must be having an effect on Jag.
Also, to put it in perspective we met some people from BMW the next day as I was paraniod my brakes were on the way out (they weren't) and they were totally opposite to Jag man, keen, enthused and obviously loving their product.
I guess we could have caught him on a bad day but my Managerial Gut Instinct kinda wrote him off early in the piece and in my experience having a dynamic, enthused and knowledgleable team is almost a guarantee of success. Just having one of the traits isn't enough (I'll assume knowledge).
If I was in his position the least I could have done is get an S-Type R and 'tweak' the suspension so it is a half decent car and fly the loyalty brand.
Would you in Mike Cross's position (Head Chassis guy at Jag yes?) allow your team to drive a M3???
In summary maybe our Jag man was just depressed about the current situation but either way he was a pretty uninspiring individual.... Too many blokes like that and Jag most definitely will be sold to Korea or the like (Nanjing anyone??)...
Wow, I hope I don't bump into you, and have your interpretation of my personality plastered on a public forum. I was recently over in Germany at Nurburgring (first time and absolutely brilliant!!) and ended up talking to some interesting fellows at a Hotel called Am Teigarten in the evening, all these lads were connecting in some way workwise with the Ring. One chap was a Property Developer (picked up the tab for all the drinks and meals, nice one!), another was a Driving Instructor, third was an IT chap but obviously went often. Anyhow, all diehard revheads and cleary passionate about cars and the track. A fourth bloke was from Coventry although he was a little quite so I didn't bother talking to him too much. But, next day I found out from my mate he was a chassis engineer from Jaguar.
Now the thing that kinda upset my mate and I (both wishing Jag, a Brit Instution the best) was the fact that this Chassis Engineer drove a M3 because he didn't think too much of the Jag dynamically. And it seemed to us that this was like an admission that he's not doing his job very well! I mean he was one of the guy's on development team.
Not only this (and this is an emotive part) but he was a little dull and not very enthused about driving or cars. My mate said it was like talking to a Public Servant (no disrespect intended), so we kinda summarised that this kind of individual must be having an effect on Jag.
Also, to put it in perspective we met some people from BMW the next day as I was paraniod my brakes were on the way out (they weren't) and they were totally opposite to Jag man, keen, enthused and obviously loving their product.
I guess we could have caught him on a bad day but my Managerial Gut Instinct kinda wrote him off early in the piece and in my experience having a dynamic, enthused and knowledgleable team is almost a guarantee of success. Just having one of the traits isn't enough (I'll assume knowledge).
If I was in his position the least I could have done is get an S-Type R and 'tweak' the suspension so it is a half decent car and fly the loyalty brand.
Would you in Mike Cross's position (Head Chassis guy at Jag yes?) allow your team to drive a M3???
In summary maybe our Jag man was just depressed about the current situation but either way he was a pretty uninspiring individual.... Too many blokes like that and Jag most definitely will be sold to Korea or the like (Nanjing anyone??)...
:knobhead:
fatboy b said:
So how comes the E46 was 20% cheaper to manufacture the the E36? Because the bean-counters stepped in.Also car building is a fickle business as the Ssangyong Chairman I have spotted for months in a local car dealership will attest, BMW wont be afraid to charge well for their cars in these initial production phases while they have a foot ahead of competitors.
Edit: Sorry, labor is a variable cost because you can just fire everyone when it’s quiet.
Edited by speedy_thrills on Tuesday 3rd July 15:54
Why? Out of the jag range, most non-managment engineers could only really afford the X-type and they're shocking 
That said, I work for a car company (who's products I don't especially rate either in some respects) and I am constantly surprised the number of people round here who aren't interested in cars. With so many red blooded blokes (and women!) obsessed with the subject, you'd think the manufacturers would attract a few more enthusiasts. Out of my group I've always been the only one with anything vaguely interesting, the rest all come to work in FWD hatches, often produced by the firm we work for!
That said, I work for a car company (who's products I don't especially rate either in some respects) and I am constantly surprised the number of people round here who aren't interested in cars. With so many red blooded blokes (and women!) obsessed with the subject, you'd think the manufacturers would attract a few more enthusiasts. Out of my group I've always been the only one with anything vaguely interesting, the rest all come to work in FWD hatches, often produced by the firm we work for!
FFS, what a steaming pile of generalisation!
You want enthusiasm? We should meet up (with Marquis_Rex as well) and we will destroy your will to live as we talk for hours about engines, made infinitely worse as I drone on with my East Midlands accent. I guarantee you will have gnawed you're own leg off by the end. This guy being brought up in a country that shows utter disdain for nerdy enthusiasm for a technical subject is probably too self concious to bring it up for fear of admonishment.
As an aside, one thing motoring enthusiasts and journalists don't get is the compromise of ride and handling balance. What you probably didn't pick up on was that he probably didn't like the tune of the Jag chassis dynamics, which is always going to be biased towards ride. With it's all aluminium double wishbone setup and strong chassis the Jaguar, in terms of construction, is possibly more sophisticated and expensive than the BMW. However the BMW M3 is lighter and it's front strut suspension allows the front overhang to be minimised improving weight distribution. Add into the fact that to maintain front wheel camber control using very stiff springs then it's no surprise that the M3 handles better. Of course this means the ride quality is f***ing appaling, but who cares this is a sports saloon! The Jaguar S type R (factoring in it's extra girth) probably has 90% of the handling but 10 times better ride quality, a factor that gets conveniently dismissed by the Evo Quoters Association.
You want enthusiasm? We should meet up (with Marquis_Rex as well) and we will destroy your will to live as we talk for hours about engines, made infinitely worse as I drone on with my East Midlands accent. I guarantee you will have gnawed you're own leg off by the end. This guy being brought up in a country that shows utter disdain for nerdy enthusiasm for a technical subject is probably too self concious to bring it up for fear of admonishment.
As an aside, one thing motoring enthusiasts and journalists don't get is the compromise of ride and handling balance. What you probably didn't pick up on was that he probably didn't like the tune of the Jag chassis dynamics, which is always going to be biased towards ride. With it's all aluminium double wishbone setup and strong chassis the Jaguar, in terms of construction, is possibly more sophisticated and expensive than the BMW. However the BMW M3 is lighter and it's front strut suspension allows the front overhang to be minimised improving weight distribution. Add into the fact that to maintain front wheel camber control using very stiff springs then it's no surprise that the M3 handles better. Of course this means the ride quality is f***ing appaling, but who cares this is a sports saloon! The Jaguar S type R (factoring in it's extra girth) probably has 90% of the handling but 10 times better ride quality, a factor that gets conveniently dismissed by the Evo Quoters Association.
wheeljack said:
FFS, what a steaming pile of generalisation!
Yeah, but that's what a forum is all about isn't it? It was my opinion as is yours and many others.Personally I think a company is built on dynamic enthused smart individuals, I didn't meet one in this case...
Edited by robm3 on Tuesday 3rd July 20:11
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