classic mini fast road geometry set up
Discussion
Have recently purchased a 96 sprite,cooper s clone which has KAD neg camber bars,cones,etc etc.The setup has not been done and I now require the settings for a fast road setup as it currently has the stance of a lowrider.
Anyones knowledge or wisdom on this subject would be greatly appreciated,as steel plates for sparking are not really my syle.
Regards,
Sausage Head.
Anyones knowledge or wisdom on this subject would be greatly appreciated,as steel plates for sparking are not really my syle.
Regards,
Sausage Head.
I assume the ride height at the front is adjustable by means of 'hi-lo's' and adjustable tie-bars.
If that is correct then my advice is as follows:
Front:
With negative camber lower arms fitted, set the ride height to standard. Track it straight ahead with no toe-out or toe-in. With the adjustable front tie bars set 3 deg of castor, plus or minus 0.5 deg to allow for tolerances in the sub-frame to ensure that the wheels are in the same geometrical position with respect to the centres of the rears. Don't set too high a damper stiffness. The reason I say standard ride height is that the Mini has little enough suspension travel as it is and the sump is very low if you lower the car. For track use it's a different matter.
Rear:
Set camber at 0 to 0.5 deg negative. There must be NO positive camber on the rear.
Set the rear track, and this is very important in overall handling terms for a road car, to between 1/8"and 3/16" toe-in. If the camber adjust brackets won't allow this to be set, then you either put shims behind the trailing arm brackets, or grind a bit off the bracket faces to achieve less or more toe-in respectively.
Again set standard ride height, although the rear can go down by about 1/2" from standard. Don't set the dampers too stiff in order that the suspenmsion can work properly
If you do this accurately your Mini will really handle, turn in and ride any normal bumps well. I've driven some really nasty lowered Minis on the road and whilst they will set good lap times on a circuit, on the road they are next to useless for any quick driving on twisty narrow lanes, where the Mini is at its best.
I hope this helps. Mail me if you need anything more on this,
Peter
If that is correct then my advice is as follows:
Front:
With negative camber lower arms fitted, set the ride height to standard. Track it straight ahead with no toe-out or toe-in. With the adjustable front tie bars set 3 deg of castor, plus or minus 0.5 deg to allow for tolerances in the sub-frame to ensure that the wheels are in the same geometrical position with respect to the centres of the rears. Don't set too high a damper stiffness. The reason I say standard ride height is that the Mini has little enough suspension travel as it is and the sump is very low if you lower the car. For track use it's a different matter.
Rear:
Set camber at 0 to 0.5 deg negative. There must be NO positive camber on the rear.
Set the rear track, and this is very important in overall handling terms for a road car, to between 1/8"and 3/16" toe-in. If the camber adjust brackets won't allow this to be set, then you either put shims behind the trailing arm brackets, or grind a bit off the bracket faces to achieve less or more toe-in respectively.
Again set standard ride height, although the rear can go down by about 1/2" from standard. Don't set the dampers too stiff in order that the suspenmsion can work properly
If you do this accurately your Mini will really handle, turn in and ride any normal bumps well. I've driven some really nasty lowered Minis on the road and whilst they will set good lap times on a circuit, on the road they are next to useless for any quick driving on twisty narrow lanes, where the Mini is at its best.
I hope this helps. Mail me if you need anything more on this,
Peter
I run the wheels concentric in the arches
-2.25 camber front -0.6 rear 1/8" rear tow in, a rear 14mm fixed arb, minimum offset 5" wheels, weighed the axles and set the shocks 1/3 loose as they go at the back and the front ones about 3/4 stiff. Run a micron of tow out on the front.
Messed around with the tyre pressures until the tread patch was a rectangle with sides which bulged by about 1/8" unladen. Not sure offhand what the PSI's are.
Have played with the settings loads. These are the best IMO. 10" wheels and 165 tyres.
I use it for ASBO style driving on A, B and unclassified roads. Would jack it up if I made a habit of running around on dirty lanes.
-2.25 camber front -0.6 rear 1/8" rear tow in, a rear 14mm fixed arb, minimum offset 5" wheels, weighed the axles and set the shocks 1/3 loose as they go at the back and the front ones about 3/4 stiff. Run a micron of tow out on the front.
Messed around with the tyre pressures until the tread patch was a rectangle with sides which bulged by about 1/8" unladen. Not sure offhand what the PSI's are.
Have played with the settings loads. These are the best IMO. 10" wheels and 165 tyres.
I use it for ASBO style driving on A, B and unclassified roads. Would jack it up if I made a habit of running around on dirty lanes.
^^ - - Very similar to above. I run shocks set-up 1/4 soft rear and 1/2 soft front and then with the whole car 3/4 inch lower than standard (I seldom have rear seat passengers)...
Run with -0.5Camber rear, -1.5Camber front. 15mins tow out front, with rear tracked parallel. Front Castor set at 4/4.5 degrees. Solid mounts on Subframe at top turret and front cross member, with normal mounts to front floor.
Remember that the Mini is blessed with not the greatest suspension travel. If you want to go the extra yard, make the front susp top turret bumpstops flat topped with just 10mm (height) of rubber left.
Edited to add: 12" Rover Minilites standard offset with 5mm spacers at rear. 32Psi front/30rear on 165/60/12 Falkens.
This is a very enjoyable set-up and the car is easy to control in the event of lift off oversteer!
Quite a lot is down to personal preference, so enjoy playing around with it.
Run with -0.5Camber rear, -1.5Camber front. 15mins tow out front, with rear tracked parallel. Front Castor set at 4/4.5 degrees. Solid mounts on Subframe at top turret and front cross member, with normal mounts to front floor.
Remember that the Mini is blessed with not the greatest suspension travel. If you want to go the extra yard, make the front susp top turret bumpstops flat topped with just 10mm (height) of rubber left.
Edited to add: 12" Rover Minilites standard offset with 5mm spacers at rear. 32Psi front/30rear on 165/60/12 Falkens.
This is a very enjoyable set-up and the car is easy to control in the event of lift off oversteer!
Quite a lot is down to personal preference, so enjoy playing around with it. Edited by fwdracer on Friday 18th May 12:11
dark_helmet said:
Great info in here. Just a quick question. What would be the "standard" ride height measurement actually be? I guess this is taken from the centre of the wheel to the arch lip? I am just about to set mine up and was wondering what you would recemmend this would be. Cheers
You'll have to check the workshop manual which gives this, ideally an original BMC one.
Now that where on this topic i thought i could maybe get some expert advice too. The camber on the rear wheels on my 89 mini thirty is positive. Ive seen a set of rear camber adjustment brackets and was wondering if any one knew how to fit them? Also what are the pro's and cons of having positive camber?
Dabz.
Dabz.
Pro's...... tough to think of any... maybe with the exception of completely benign breakaway characteristics at really modest road speeds.
Con's..... Outside drop shoulder wear on the rear tyres.... limited rear grip.... Car looks daft (Combined with a high ride height I always think a Mini looks as if it has been swiftly kicked up the a*se
).. I could go on....
The camber brackets are a doddle to fit, but should always be tracked and if possible 4-wheel aligned afterwards. Your Mini will feel like a different car - guaranteed.
Course, you could file a slot in the existing Rover outer bracket and then use a a large washer for increased clamping load once the arm has gone from positive to negative. Used this on the first Mini. Cost is usually an afternoon, few cups of tea and the almost compulsory expletives that come with working on a Mini
Con's..... Outside drop shoulder wear on the rear tyres.... limited rear grip.... Car looks daft (Combined with a high ride height I always think a Mini looks as if it has been swiftly kicked up the a*se
).. I could go on.... The camber brackets are a doddle to fit, but should always be tracked and if possible 4-wheel aligned afterwards. Your Mini will feel like a different car - guaranteed.
Course, you could file a slot in the existing Rover outer bracket and then use a a large washer for increased clamping load once the arm has gone from positive to negative. Used this on the first Mini. Cost is usually an afternoon, few cups of tea and the almost compulsory expletives that come with working on a Mini
There are no 'pros' to having positive camber on the rear. The negatives are that the car won't handle like a Mini should and will be less predictable at or near the limit, especially in the wet.
Actually you don't need camber brackets. All you need to do is to get a large piece of square plywood (and I mean SQUARE) and, with the car sitting on a flat and smooth surface, place it vertically adjacent to each rear wheel in turn and in line with the wheel centre. It doesn't matter if it's a little way away from the wheel rim as you then measure accurately from the lowest point of the rim to the plywood, then the highest point of the rim. If the upper position measurement is greater than the lower one, that's the positive camber (i.e., the wheel is 'tucking under').
To correct this, get a couple of large (c.20mm dia) and thick (1.5mm) steel washers, remove the outer bracket into which the trailing arm spindle goes and file the hole in the bracket to allow the outer end of the spindle to re-position slightly higher. By trial-and-error, you can set the camber into negative, then when it's correct, MIG-weld the washer in place. Before welding, put the full weight of the car onto its wheels and do up the outer nut tight, then the washer can't move. You really only need to tack the washer on, not seam weld, as it can't move once set in position.
I hope this makes sense. I do this on all the Minis I have to set the rear suspension on and it works. It's just so cheap as well.
I hope I've explained it OK, but if not feel free to email me.
Peter
Actually you don't need camber brackets. All you need to do is to get a large piece of square plywood (and I mean SQUARE) and, with the car sitting on a flat and smooth surface, place it vertically adjacent to each rear wheel in turn and in line with the wheel centre. It doesn't matter if it's a little way away from the wheel rim as you then measure accurately from the lowest point of the rim to the plywood, then the highest point of the rim. If the upper position measurement is greater than the lower one, that's the positive camber (i.e., the wheel is 'tucking under').
To correct this, get a couple of large (c.20mm dia) and thick (1.5mm) steel washers, remove the outer bracket into which the trailing arm spindle goes and file the hole in the bracket to allow the outer end of the spindle to re-position slightly higher. By trial-and-error, you can set the camber into negative, then when it's correct, MIG-weld the washer in place. Before welding, put the full weight of the car onto its wheels and do up the outer nut tight, then the washer can't move. You really only need to tack the washer on, not seam weld, as it can't move once set in position.
I hope this makes sense. I do this on all the Minis I have to set the rear suspension on and it works. It's just so cheap as well.
I hope I've explained it OK, but if not feel free to email me.
Peter
Cooperman, seem to remember you giving some guide values in an old thread for increasing the hole / effect on camber, can you remind us?
Also, how do you adjust the brackets to change the rear tracking?
Just thought, the problem with a diy job on the brackets and why i never get round to doing it, is not having the alignment gear to set it up. If youre relying on someone else to do it, it really needs to be adjustable i suppose.
Also, how do you adjust the brackets to change the rear tracking?
Just thought, the problem with a diy job on the brackets and why i never get round to doing it, is not having the alignment gear to set it up. If youre relying on someone else to do it, it really needs to be adjustable i suppose.
Edited by haynes on Tuesday 22 May 12:55
Richard Longman used to run +camber at the back to de-grip it. That was on the clubby with 12" wheels. I run a rear anti roll bar which has a similar sort of influence as it allows the back to slide in certain circumstances. Gripping up the front has a limit and de gripping the back slightly should be on the agenda perhaps. I suppose you could run 008's on the back and 032's on the front and see how that worked. The purpose of my rear ARB is to allow me to run it lower without the tyres binding (as they did with the wheels concentric in the arches). Since it de-weights the inner wheel (sometimes lifts off a lot) I run sticky rear tyres and negative camber to make it grip when I drive fast around a corner. However, if I chuck it, it glides which is nice. A similar result could be had for running slight +camber on the rear or at least not decambering it so much.
I agree, it looks naff but we are concerned with handling here, not looks.
I have also run rear tow out in the interests of cornering, something I will be getting rid of next rebuild.
I agree, it looks naff but we are concerned with handling here, not looks.
I have also run rear tow out in the interests of cornering, something I will be getting rid of next rebuild.
cara jynwyth said:
I agree, it looks naff but we are concerned with handling here, not looks.
Mines a day to day commuter also, so its gotta have a balance between handling and looks (but mainly looks)! And that means that the rear +ve camber has to go and has to be replaced with -ve camber! 
I've driven Minis with rear ARB's and they do 'turn-in' nicely. I don't run them on my rally cars as it's just something else to break off on the rough and I think you can get almost the same effects by setting the suspension accurately in terms of front and rear geometry. For racing, with a rear ARB it does mean that you can get back on the power earlier in long corners without the terminal understeer happening. With my car on slightly raised from standard ride height, the 'roll-oversteer' is quite enough!
My Rover 214Si rally car has a very thich ARB on the back to induce 'turn-in', but I lost 5 minutes on a rally earlier this year when it snapped, then another 2 minutes when I went off briefly due to not allowing for the different handling after it broke (well, continuing to try too hard, if truth be told!). Mad OAP rallying in a Rover, as someone rightly said.
My Rover 214Si rally car has a very thich ARB on the back to induce 'turn-in', but I lost 5 minutes on a rally earlier this year when it snapped, then another 2 minutes when I went off briefly due to not allowing for the different handling after it broke (well, continuing to try too hard, if truth be told!). Mad OAP rallying in a Rover, as someone rightly said.
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