911 ownership on a budget
Discussion
Hi, I've currently got a BMW 330 ci, which is lovely but kinda boring. Motorbikes have ruined cars for me and I'd like something more involving and fun to drive.
I've also wanted a 911 since I was 5, so...
Are late 80's early 90's 911 for sub 20K likely to be any use? I dont do much milage, about 8K a year, but it would be an only car.
I need to know roughly how much one of these would cost to keep, and if they are usually reliable.
Any other suggestions are appreciated.
(I dont want a Boxter, no convertables for me at all thanks!)
I've also wanted a 911 since I was 5, so...
Are late 80's early 90's 911 for sub 20K likely to be any use? I dont do much milage, about 8K a year, but it would be an only car.
I need to know roughly how much one of these would cost to keep, and if they are usually reliable.
Any other suggestions are appreciated.
(I dont want a Boxter, no convertables for me at all thanks!)
Taske your time by a 3.2 911 (84-89or a 964 (89-93) for about 15k. 964 much more modern than the 3.2 - drive both.
This will leave you 5 k for suprises which you shouuld not need if you choose well - but you might do
good luck. I found Henry Firman at 911virgin.com very helpful, but do lots of desk research as well
This will leave you 5 k for suprises which you shouuld not need if you choose well - but you might do
good luck. I found Henry Firman at 911virgin.com very helpful, but do lots of desk research as well
I very stupidly sold an absolute peach of a 911 3.2 Carrera (pics on profile).
It was a 1988, handled like it was on rails, and achieved 10mph more than it was supposed to have come out the factory with
I did 10,000 very happy miles in the year that i had it including a 3,000 mile blast down to Monaco on MegaHoon 06 in the company of Daz (996TT), Shadytree (Aston V8) to name just two. The carrera more than held it's own and never missed a beat.
Also, everyone seems to love them
Find a good specialist to look after it (I wish Strasse in Leeeds did TVRs) and you should have many happy miles.
Be warned though ... mine was a VERY good one that the last owner didn't realise exactly what he had ... I paid £13,500 including the plate 911 *** which i sold for £1,300. There are a lot of neglected ones out there so look carefully. Service history and a file of receipts goes a long way in my book
The 3.2 Carreras are a bit agricultural but likewise, very simple and relatively cheap to fix.
It was a 1988, handled like it was on rails, and achieved 10mph more than it was supposed to have come out the factory with
I did 10,000 very happy miles in the year that i had it including a 3,000 mile blast down to Monaco on MegaHoon 06 in the company of Daz (996TT), Shadytree (Aston V8) to name just two. The carrera more than held it's own and never missed a beat.
Also, everyone seems to love them
Find a good specialist to look after it (I wish Strasse in Leeeds did TVRs) and you should have many happy miles.
Be warned though ... mine was a VERY good one that the last owner didn't realise exactly what he had ... I paid £13,500 including the plate 911 *** which i sold for £1,300. There are a lot of neglected ones out there so look carefully. Service history and a file of receipts goes a long way in my book
The 3.2 Carreras are a bit agricultural but likewise, very simple and relatively cheap to fix.
I paid £15k for my 964 at Northway (very helpful) last August and it has since become a daily driver - likely to do about 8.5k this year. Paid £1,500 for a full service and replacement brakes since then, in addition to £300 on tyres and a couple of other discretionary bits, so reckon on about £2,000 a year (which seems to be the received wisdom).
Great fun and very reliable, no problems as an only car (touch wood).
Great fun and very reliable, no problems as an only car (touch wood).
Speed addicted said:
So it is possible...
Any good Porsche specalists around ABerdeen? How much do you normally pay for servicing? And what sort of performance/MPG does a 3.2 achive?
Also I take it aircon isint really available?
Cheers.
Any good Porsche specalists around ABerdeen? How much do you normally pay for servicing? And what sort of performance/MPG does a 3.2 achive?
Also I take it aircon isint really available?
Cheers.
No idea about Aberdeen I'm afraid, but they will be one not far away I'll hazard a guess.
Servicing at reputable idies? £299 for 6,000 miles £399 for 12,000 miles.
Performance? well, mine had been slightly tweaked as I discovered ... and would do a genuine 160mph. One of the quotes from a European jaunt from the Ferrari 550 driver as he rolled up to me and Daz - "Christ, I had 155 on the clock and you guys were pulling away!"
On a run it will return about 27mpg. Added to the fact that they have a big tank (£70 of V.Power) and it makes a great tourer.
Aircon is rare on the 3.2 but more readily available on the 964s.
I was fairly ambivalent about 911s ... but now I can hand on heart say that they are the best "all round" sportscar in the world
Sorry!Had my 964 for nearly 4 months now. I use it as a second car, mainly so I don't worry about it in the station car park all day, so when it gets driven it tends to be for fun (weekends away, going out to restaurants, blasts through the countryside, European jaunts etc.) hence I only get about 15mpg normally, but on a run about 25mpg.
Parts are available online at very reasonable prices (sites like design911 and porscheshop) and I use an excellent specialist locally that only charges £45 an hour labour.
Given my time again I would probably go for a Carrera 2 (certainly will next time) they have so much traction anyway that the extra weight and complexity isn't necessary (unless you drive like a loon in the wet or with knackered tyres!)
Before I bought it I thought long and hard, did my research and eventually took the plunge. These cars have a lot of character, even if you don't love it instantly when you drive it you will warm to it over time. Mine brings a smile to my face every time I look at it.
Go for it, the younger you are the more you'll enjoy it - you only live once and on the scale of things in life £15k ish isn't a life changing amount of money. If you ever wanted to get rid again they are always worth something.
Parts are available online at very reasonable prices (sites like design911 and porscheshop) and I use an excellent specialist locally that only charges £45 an hour labour.
Given my time again I would probably go for a Carrera 2 (certainly will next time) they have so much traction anyway that the extra weight and complexity isn't necessary (unless you drive like a loon in the wet or with knackered tyres!)
Before I bought it I thought long and hard, did my research and eventually took the plunge. These cars have a lot of character, even if you don't love it instantly when you drive it you will warm to it over time. Mine brings a smile to my face every time I look at it.
Go for it, the younger you are the more you'll enjoy it - you only live once and on the scale of things in life £15k ish isn't a life changing amount of money. If you ever wanted to get rid again they are always worth something.
iamthestig said:
- you only live once and on the scale of things in life £15k ish isn't a life changing amount of money. If you ever wanted to get rid again they are always worth something.
I sold my '88 with 97k on for £14,250 to the first guy that looked at it ... and he knew his cars. burriana said:
iamthestig said:
- you only live once and on the scale of things in life £15k ish isn't a life changing amount of money. If you ever wanted to get rid again they are always worth something.
I sold my '88 with 97k on for £14,250 to the first guy that looked at it ... and he knew his cars. Free porsche????
nice one - £13500 - £1300 = £12200 sold for £2k more....
I wish i had you luck/judgement!!
am actually contemplating a very similar thing
any nice 3.2s in the classifieds? BERGS2 said:
Free porsche????
nice one - £13500 - £1300 = £12200 sold for £2k more....
I wish i had you luck/judgement!!
nice one - £13500 - £1300 = £12200 sold for £2k more....
I wish i had you luck/judgement!!
well, not quite ...
I did drive it fairly, enthusiastically which included a few Dawn Raids and a couple of V.Maxes as well as the MegaHoon trip. And on one of those V.Maxes i managed to shatter the 3rd synchro. Rather trhan do half a job I had the full set replaced and gearbox rebuilt with a new clutch for good measure ... about £1500.
I also spent a few grand getting the car exactly how i wanted it as soon as i bought it. This included cosmetic stuff like bumper respray, wheels and decals, plus major service, braided brake lines, uprated track rod ends and various other bits and pieces.
So ... I bought a very good car, spent money on it to get it to a superb car ... then stupidly sold it!
The 928 is lovely too, but I've just turned 30 and I've wanted a 911 since I was 5....(mainly due to the baddies in condor man)
the 964 seems to be a good option as I'd like air-con. Also they dont seem to be as sought after, any reasons? I've done some research and ealy troubles seem to have affected the prices (or are there more problems?)Same for the TArga models.
so..
Carrerra 2 or 4? The car will be used all year round, and have to live outside (but be cleaned and waxed obsessively). Is the extra weight of the 4wd worth it?
Thanks for the replies.
the 964 seems to be a good option as I'd like air-con. Also they dont seem to be as sought after, any reasons? I've done some research and ealy troubles seem to have affected the prices (or are there more problems?)Same for the TArga models.
so..
Carrerra 2 or 4? The car will be used all year round, and have to live outside (but be cleaned and waxed obsessively). Is the extra weight of the 4wd worth it?
Thanks for the replies.
The main 964 specific things to look for (more so than earlier cars) are oil leaks (on pre-93 cars) which may necessitate an engine rebuild to rectify and that the clutch is OK, as they usually need a flywheel at the same time (circa nearly £1,000 all in).
If you can stretch another 2 or 3 grand 993s will come into the equation too.
If you can stretch another 2 or 3 grand 993s will come into the equation too.
I had the same quandary in 2002. I was looking at getting a 3.2 and test drove a couple, then tried a 964 just to see what it was like and i ended up preferring its power, handling/suspension and bumpers. I still have it & love it.
The big things to consider on a 964 is the old engine rebuild. They usually need to be done at around 90-120k miles and cost around £4k for a topend job or about £6k for a top and bottom job. Tell tale signs are smokey exhausts, lowish oil pressure and oily/leaky engines. My C2 coupe needed a rebuild at 200k kms (left-hooker) and it cost me about 7k due to a few unnecessary (but nice) extras.
As long as the price is right for an un-rebuilt engined car you're ok, but if i was looking again, i'd probably go for a rebuilt car with a receipt for the work.
Regarding C2 vs C4, i'm biased but i'd go for a C2 every time. They are slightly lighter and feel nimbler and faster.
The big things to consider on a 964 is the old engine rebuild. They usually need to be done at around 90-120k miles and cost around £4k for a topend job or about £6k for a top and bottom job. Tell tale signs are smokey exhausts, lowish oil pressure and oily/leaky engines. My C2 coupe needed a rebuild at 200k kms (left-hooker) and it cost me about 7k due to a few unnecessary (but nice) extras.
As long as the price is right for an un-rebuilt engined car you're ok, but if i was looking again, i'd probably go for a rebuilt car with a receipt for the work.
Regarding C2 vs C4, i'm biased but i'd go for a C2 every time. They are slightly lighter and feel nimbler and faster.
Just to add - Running a 911 on a budget is definitely do-able. I've managed since 2002. It does help if you like getting your hands dirty and enjoy spending the odd Saturday tinkering etc. for an answer to almost everything have a look on rennlist.com
Here's some info i just found on my pc from when i was looking. Hope its of use !
964 Checks
----------
Check door hinge bolts for movement, reseating, paint fit and finish.
B post should have barcode affixed. Nearside.
Door slam plates same reasons.
Oil tank drivers side front wheel arch, in front of wheel, check for impact damage, and leaky, possibly rusty pipes.
Check engine compartment for all stickers : Mobil 1/Shell on intake duct, others where engine cover closes.
Check distributor assembly for plastic pipe to inlet manifold
Check service history - distributor connection belts should have been replaced.
Check oil level gauge for level when warm at tickover. Then check (dip) oil still at tickover. Should tally. Sensor is £££.
Check oil level anyway. Running with low oil is bad news.
Check for any oil leaks around top of engine
Check the under engine plate. This may be damp with oil, but nothing serious.
Should be nice mixture of oil and dust.
Throttle body rubbers should have been replaced at approximately 40k miles.
Steering should have no steering play dead at straight ahead, but a slight dead zone.
It should not be snatchy as this points to front suspension bushes being worn.
Check inside front tyres check for wear possibly due to suspension bushes.
Opinions differ. Seems to make the car slightly fidgety if they are worn - but no major deal.
Check power steering pump for noise.
At full lock with engine lid open. Listen.
In 3rd gear lift off at 45mph and listen. Should be no loud flywheel graunging. Most flywheels should have been sorted by now - or superceded on later models.
Check front disks for lip (disk wear).
Check that rear spoiler works, this is M£££ to repair.
Check sunroof motor works. This is £££.
Check heater/ac panel works. This is £1000 to replace.
Check that passenger electric window operates ok. They don't get used much, stick, and then people burn out the motors.
Check boot and bonnet hydraulic struts. If they are a little soft this can be good! Means they haven't been swapped for another reason! They work better when weather is warm - mind the bonnet doesn't drop on your head. That latch thing hurts!
Check for sticker under bonnet for paint code, VIN number and options list. This should be well stuck on. Like it has never been off and never will come off! Should be the same as the one in the front of the service book. Easy to derive fitted options. Option code numbers all over the Internet
Check that the car has original porsche battery. This is important especially on a c4 which draws a lot of current (for hydraulic booster etc) and is £150+ to replace.
Check that gear oil has been replaced (probably twice) during service history.
Car cold, air con on, should be hard to pull away. Indicates good a/c charge pressure.
Check slight oil smell inside car (slight is fine). Turn heat right up and fan right up and sniff for oil smell.
Check front and rear underbody guards for damage.
Check for first aid kit, compressor, tool kit, plastic bag for removed wheel, plastic gloves (all shipped with car at new). Says good owners.
Check wheel bearing rumble. Especially back ones. Roll in neutral at 30mph+
Listen to exhaust for baffles noise and leaks. Should be rock solid.
New cat may be required at this age, can't really check without garage support. (Could be replaced with sports exhaust!).
If 92 claimed car, check that rear ind lenses have vents. Condensation in rear lights is normal - and they have a tendency to crack - doesn't always mean they've been dinged! Later cars/lenses are better, but not cured!
Condensation not normal in other lights - except possibly side repeaters - but they are cheap anyhow - especially if you replace with (identical) VW Golf parts!
Compare build date - front of service book, and date of first reg.
I found mine easy to stall when I first got it, so I think it's probably you, not the car... check that it idles ok at about 850 rpm.
many 90/91 UK cars have rebuilds between 70 and 110k miles.
Also check when the clutch was last replaced (and by who), if it had the dizzy belt replaced (if not change it asap, budget £120) and what brand make the tyres are (good tyres = careful owner in general).
Finally, regarding the bodywork, if you look at the inner lip of the wheelarch you should feel a rubberised texture, this was the original factory finish. If its painted over, it means that the wing was probably resprayed. Drop me an email if you want a pic of what I mean.
Here's some info i just found on my pc from when i was looking. Hope its of use !
964 Checks
----------
Check door hinge bolts for movement, reseating, paint fit and finish.
B post should have barcode affixed. Nearside.
Door slam plates same reasons.
Oil tank drivers side front wheel arch, in front of wheel, check for impact damage, and leaky, possibly rusty pipes.
Check engine compartment for all stickers : Mobil 1/Shell on intake duct, others where engine cover closes.
Check distributor assembly for plastic pipe to inlet manifold
Check service history - distributor connection belts should have been replaced.
Check oil level gauge for level when warm at tickover. Then check (dip) oil still at tickover. Should tally. Sensor is £££.
Check oil level anyway. Running with low oil is bad news.
Check for any oil leaks around top of engine
Check the under engine plate. This may be damp with oil, but nothing serious.
Should be nice mixture of oil and dust.
Throttle body rubbers should have been replaced at approximately 40k miles.
Steering should have no steering play dead at straight ahead, but a slight dead zone.
It should not be snatchy as this points to front suspension bushes being worn.
Check inside front tyres check for wear possibly due to suspension bushes.
Opinions differ. Seems to make the car slightly fidgety if they are worn - but no major deal.
Check power steering pump for noise.
At full lock with engine lid open. Listen.
In 3rd gear lift off at 45mph and listen. Should be no loud flywheel graunging. Most flywheels should have been sorted by now - or superceded on later models.
Check front disks for lip (disk wear).
Check that rear spoiler works, this is M£££ to repair.
Check sunroof motor works. This is £££.
Check heater/ac panel works. This is £1000 to replace.
Check that passenger electric window operates ok. They don't get used much, stick, and then people burn out the motors.
Check boot and bonnet hydraulic struts. If they are a little soft this can be good! Means they haven't been swapped for another reason! They work better when weather is warm - mind the bonnet doesn't drop on your head. That latch thing hurts!
Check for sticker under bonnet for paint code, VIN number and options list. This should be well stuck on. Like it has never been off and never will come off! Should be the same as the one in the front of the service book. Easy to derive fitted options. Option code numbers all over the Internet
Check that the car has original porsche battery. This is important especially on a c4 which draws a lot of current (for hydraulic booster etc) and is £150+ to replace.
Check that gear oil has been replaced (probably twice) during service history.
Car cold, air con on, should be hard to pull away. Indicates good a/c charge pressure.
Check slight oil smell inside car (slight is fine). Turn heat right up and fan right up and sniff for oil smell.
Check front and rear underbody guards for damage.
Check for first aid kit, compressor, tool kit, plastic bag for removed wheel, plastic gloves (all shipped with car at new). Says good owners.
Check wheel bearing rumble. Especially back ones. Roll in neutral at 30mph+
Listen to exhaust for baffles noise and leaks. Should be rock solid.
New cat may be required at this age, can't really check without garage support. (Could be replaced with sports exhaust!).
If 92 claimed car, check that rear ind lenses have vents. Condensation in rear lights is normal - and they have a tendency to crack - doesn't always mean they've been dinged! Later cars/lenses are better, but not cured!
Condensation not normal in other lights - except possibly side repeaters - but they are cheap anyhow - especially if you replace with (identical) VW Golf parts!
Compare build date - front of service book, and date of first reg.
I found mine easy to stall when I first got it, so I think it's probably you, not the car... check that it idles ok at about 850 rpm.
many 90/91 UK cars have rebuilds between 70 and 110k miles.
Also check when the clutch was last replaced (and by who), if it had the dizzy belt replaced (if not change it asap, budget £120) and what brand make the tyres are (good tyres = careful owner in general).
Finally, regarding the bodywork, if you look at the inner lip of the wheelarch you should feel a rubberised texture, this was the original factory finish. If its painted over, it means that the wing was probably resprayed. Drop me an email if you want a pic of what I mean.
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