Discussion
It's 8 pages long but...
Forget the beginning and cut to the tuning part. These guys are saying that the Rousch mapping is cr4p and there are maybe another 40-50 ponies left with a remap, which can be done by post.
www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?t=1945
Discuss.
Martin.
Forget the beginning and cut to the tuning part. These guys are saying that the Rousch mapping is cr4p and there are maybe another 40-50 ponies left with a remap, which can be done by post.
www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?t=1945
Discuss.
Martin.
Edited by V6GTO on Monday 19th March 11:56
adrian w said:
Read it now, think Hoover has done a good selling job on Caccobra and he wont see much difference. I also thought that Trevor only did the M400 not the 3R, also not convinced the US engines are identical.
You'd be wrong then, Adrian. I wasn't "sold" anything and Trevor did develop all of the maps for the US cars, AFAIK. Let me see if I can help everyone on the UK side understand what we are dealing with in the US. It is a bit different that what you have experienced there, so it is easy to understand why you may be confused by some of the discussion on nobleforums of late. It may appear that I have been "sold" on this issue, but that's just because I have been more vocal about it after discovering that we can now get our cars ECU's fixed. This is important to all of us, because several cars have been sold in the US after short periods of ownership, just out of frustration over the probelms associated with our ECU's. That doesn't have to be the case anymore and it only helps 1G to sell more cars, if existing owners are thoroughly happy with their cars. Once this issue is behind us, 1G won't be competing with so many used Nobles on the market and the car will no longer have this negative issue working against future sales. That benefits all Noble owners too.
A little background first: Trevor has supported the owners in the UK for quite some time now on any ECU issues and he also remaps your cars so that you can take advantage of mods that you have added. You have also been able to take your cars to him to correct any ECU related issues as they arise. We in the US have never had any ECU support for our cars. The ECU's had been password locked. There was no one that was authorized to examine the problems we have here, let alone the ability to correct them....until now.
Trevor is an excellent guy and he definitely knows his stuff when it comes to tuning. I don't want anyone to think that I am in any way saying something bad about him. I am a true fan of his. However when it came time to develop the maps for the US cars, as I understand it, he was instructed to just phone it in through a Kentucky based speed shop of questionable talent (now out of business, so....). Anyhow, Trevor never came to the US to develop our maps on a dyno. He had to rely on feedback from this US based tuner whilst a car was on that guy's dyno, over the phone. I have a feeling that Trevor sensed the shortcomings of the US guy he was working with and erred on the over-conservative side of things. As a result we actually don't have a hands-on Trevor map in our cars like you all do. It is best guess only, because he wasn't here to do it himself.
Now having said that, I will express my opinion of the maps we have in the U.S. once again. They are in large part crap. Let me stress again, that isn't the fault of Trevor, it is the fault of the method used (remote tuning) and the person he had to rely on for feedback, IMHO. Upon thorough and extensive investigation of those maps by Hoover, many of our cars are found to be spiking boost and the A/F's are eratic, the power bands are way too narrow and the idle management is based on the throttle plate angle rather than using other sensors that control it better (you guys have that problem too). By adjusting those things, Hoover (who by the way has Lee Noble's blessing on this as well as Dean Rosen at 1G) is able to find anywhere from 50-100 more rwhp in our cars while keeping the A/F ratio exactly where it should be (at a very safe level throughout the powerband). In fact our cars are much safer after the remap because the A/F is where it should be and they are no longer spiking boost. The real added bonus is no more idle/stalling issues on our cars. In fact, on the car that Hoover just remapped last week to develop a map that would work on my configuration, I asked him to test the car with A/C on for hot start stumbling/stalling (you all know that little idiosincracy of our cars) and he drove it for two hours with A/C on, stopping to let it sit periodically after getting it thouroughly warmed up in 85F weather. He reported back to me that it didn't have any problem starting and idling smoothly each time he did so. That is a huge improvement over the usual "leave the A/C off until you are driving for a couple of minutes so that it won't stall" approach.
No sales job on me. I had been investigating this issue myself for over two years so I already suspected that our ECU's left a lot on the table. I had no idea it was as much as it turned out to be though. It took Lee Noble and 1G ok'ing Hoover to do for us what Trevor does for you guys in order for us to know exactly where the US mapping can be improved for our cars in the US. Thanks, Lee and Dean!
One other side note on this. Hoover's discovery of the shortcomings of throttle plate idle management and his change from that to a better way to utilize other sensors in our cars to control idle management, should also be utilized in all UK ECU's, IMHO. I would strongly recommend that Trevor hook up with Hoover on that issue, because it is a real improvement in how the car behaves at idle and on hot starts, etc. with A/C on or off.
I have always been of the opinion that one should not have to nurse the idle of a $100,000 car by leaving the A/C off when you start it. That is not a solution, that is like prescribing aspirin for a brain tumor, since it doesn't address the real problem (the way in which the idle is managed to begin with). Hoover's solution addresses the real problem and takes care of that issue completely. Bear in mind that he has been researching and working on our ECU's on his customer's cars for over a year now and he is a very detailed guy, so he has a wealth of knowledge on the MBE unit that we use here and the maps that Trevor provided. His company's web site is www.turbohoses.com and he can be reached via email at hooverc@turbohoses.com.
Hope that helps to explain our situation here in the US. The really good news for all US Noble owners or soon to be Noble owners is that it is a very simple fix. My ECU is in Hoover's hands today for a remap (I pulled it out and overnighted it to him on Saturday). It will probably take him about 5 minutes to download the new map into my ECU and he will overnight it back to me. The car he developed my map on was a bone stock 3R using 91 octane fuel and it ended up with 377rwhp after the remap. The owner was looking for 350rwhp, so his car may get dialed back a little bit. Mine, which uses 93 octane fuel and has a Faulks intercooler, should be closer to 390-395rwhp after the remap (I was probably at 280-300 rwhp on the Roush 400 hypo map that I had). And it will no longer have any idle/stalling issues for me to deal with. I hope that the end result for me is a very smooth running car that has a wider powerband and boost all the way to the redline. This is something many of you have experienced after Trevor does his magic on your ECU's after installing one of his new exhaust systems. That's the way ALL of our cars in the US should behave right from the factory, IMHO and now we finally have a way to make that happen here. A US owner would be crazy not to have their ECU remapped. Even if they think the map they have now is perfect, it really can be improved. Boost spiking is dangerous and our engines are pretty sensitive to any mods that improve air flow in or out. If an owner has added bigger turbos and exhaust, etc. and hasn't had their car remapped, they are inviting disaster. Those mods will lean the engine out even more and if it is also spiking boost......detonation is a very real possibility. That's why Trevor installs a new map in your cars when he installs his uprated exhaust system.
The really good news for me is that, at these rwhp numbers, there really is no need to add any other performance modifications on my car like different turbos or different exhaust. While that might get me another 50-60 rwhp, I think it might have the negative result of overpowering the chassis and I sure don't want to mess up the chassis balance that Lee has designed.
Hope that helps the Nobility in the UK to understand our situation in the US a little better. Sorry for the rather lengthy discourse. It is a touchy subject for some and it is best if everyone understand where we are coming from on this issue in the US. I love my Noble. Once my ECU is fixed, I never plan on selling it. I hope that holds true for the majority of US owners that have been frustrated because of their ECU's current shortcomings. It is a simple fix and it will save money for many looking for better performance through other modifications. You can probably get to where you want to be with just a remap, without all the expense of those modifications. That is probably not such good news for the aftermarket speed shops selling them the mods, but it is real good news for the Noble owners.
Best Regards,
Craig
Edited by caccobra on Monday 19th March 14:36
V6GTO said:
It's 8 pages long but...
Forget the beginning and cut to the tuning part. These guys are saying that the Rousch mapping is cr4p and there are maybe another 40-50 ponies left with a remap, which can be done by post.
www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?t=1945
Discuss.
Martin.
Forget the beginning and cut to the tuning part. These guys are saying that the Rousch mapping is cr4p and there are maybe another 40-50 ponies left with a remap, which can be done by post.
www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?t=1945
Discuss.
Martin.
Edited by V6GTO on Monday 19th March 11:56
Trevor did go stateside to do some mapping however as all their engines are built / set up by different w/shops US engines have varying build "parameters" so where one engine has been built "Just so" another may not have been therefore one MAP Doesen't fit all, and so not all engines will react in the same manner to the standard MAP therefore each engine should be tuned to "its own potential" individually.
Our engines were built by the same people therefore have (in theory) the same build quality / set-up and vis a vis one MAP fits all (ish)
F.C.
For those that are interested, I've looked at the graphs being displayed and figure that they're run in fourth gear from the speeds. At 100mph (circa 6200rpm in 4th according to my calculations) the losses on the dyno I use is a mere 18hp and at 80mph, it's only 13.5bhp. That would mean that if we were to measure our power this way, we would have in excess of 500rwhp for Richards engine!
Looking at those graphs, and this one in particular:
[pic] www.turbohoses.com/mel400new.jpg [/pic]
it's quite clear to me that the car loses 100rwhp at 100mph and ends up no better off than the standard map with revised intercooler. All he's done is wind the boost up in the mid-range and throw a bit more fuel into it (or maybe the fuel pump wiring had been sorted on the second car).
Well, the extra boost causes other problems which in my opinion affects the durability of the engine. As I was being paid by 1G to map the cars, I kept it safe and nearer to what the UK cars had. Bear in mind that against Lee's request, 1G were already using different turbos and injectors. I have posted for years about this durability trade-off and it seems to me people keep forgetting.... Ask Adrian about his issue....
As F.C. has said, the consistency of the UK build may now only just be being matched by the US installers. That makes it hard to map for all cars and be safe... I only had one visit and not much dyno time when I was there, or many cars to work with so the sample size was very small - it took years of trans-atlantic emails and phone calls to get the maps somewhat better. I spent a lot of time (all of it unpaid by Lee or 1G ) helping Mike E out with problem after problem, simply because I wanted you guys to have the best Noble experience possible. However, there's nothing like being with the car to get a feel for it, and sure, if I could map all cars, I could get them all running super sweet. There's no doubt I could get all US cars running better but there was no budget to come back and do any more.
You can see what we have achieved with our upgrades to the cars (exhausts, intercoolers, suspension mods, cooling mods, power upgrades, etc) - all of them engineered to be reliable and work with the car's inherent strengths, and not all of them aimed at headline-grabbing big power numbers.
YellowShed
Looking at those graphs, and this one in particular:
[pic] www.turbohoses.com/mel400new.jpg [/pic]
it's quite clear to me that the car loses 100rwhp at 100mph and ends up no better off than the standard map with revised intercooler. All he's done is wind the boost up in the mid-range and throw a bit more fuel into it (or maybe the fuel pump wiring had been sorted on the second car).
Well, the extra boost causes other problems which in my opinion affects the durability of the engine. As I was being paid by 1G to map the cars, I kept it safe and nearer to what the UK cars had. Bear in mind that against Lee's request, 1G were already using different turbos and injectors. I have posted for years about this durability trade-off and it seems to me people keep forgetting.... Ask Adrian about his issue....
As F.C. has said, the consistency of the UK build may now only just be being matched by the US installers. That makes it hard to map for all cars and be safe... I only had one visit and not much dyno time when I was there, or many cars to work with so the sample size was very small - it took years of trans-atlantic emails and phone calls to get the maps somewhat better. I spent a lot of time (all of it unpaid by Lee or 1G ) helping Mike E out with problem after problem, simply because I wanted you guys to have the best Noble experience possible. However, there's nothing like being with the car to get a feel for it, and sure, if I could map all cars, I could get them all running super sweet. There's no doubt I could get all US cars running better but there was no budget to come back and do any more.
You can see what we have achieved with our upgrades to the cars (exhausts, intercoolers, suspension mods, cooling mods, power upgrades, etc) - all of them engineered to be reliable and work with the car's inherent strengths, and not all of them aimed at headline-grabbing big power numbers.
YellowShed
Edited by yellowshed on Monday 19th March 19:18
F.C. said:
V6GTO said:
It's 8 pages long but...
Forget the beginning and cut to the tuning part. These guys are saying that the Rousch mapping is cr4p and there are maybe another 40-50 ponies left with a remap, which can be done by post.
www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?t=1945
Discuss.
Martin.
Forget the beginning and cut to the tuning part. These guys are saying that the Rousch mapping is cr4p and there are maybe another 40-50 ponies left with a remap, which can be done by post.
www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?t=1945
Discuss.
Martin.
Edited by V6GTO on Monday 19th March 11:56
Trevor did go stateside to do some mapping however as all their engines are built / set up by different w/shops US engines have varying build "parameters" so where one engine has been built "Just so" another may not have been therefore one MAP Doesen't fit all, and so not all engines will react in the same manner to the standard MAP therefore each engine should be tuned to "its own potential" individually.
Our engines were built by the same people therefore have (in theory) the same build quality / set-up and vis a vis one MAP fits all (ish)
F.C.
F.C. All the US engines are the same, built by A.E.R. in the US. As recommended by 1G.
alex s said:
F.C. said:
V6GTO said:
It's 8 pages long but...
Forget the beginning and cut to the tuning part. These guys are saying that the Rousch mapping is cr4p and there are maybe another 40-50 ponies left with a remap, which can be done by post.
www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?t=1945
Discuss.
Martin.
Forget the beginning and cut to the tuning part. These guys are saying that the Rousch mapping is cr4p and there are maybe another 40-50 ponies left with a remap, which can be done by post.
www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?t=1945
Discuss.
Martin.
Edited by V6GTO on Monday 19th March 11:56
Trevor did go stateside to do some mapping however as all their engines are built / set up by different w/shops US engines have varying build "parameters" so where one engine has been built "Just so" another may not have been therefore one MAP Doesen't fit all, and so not all engines will react in the same manner to the standard MAP therefore each engine should be tuned to "its own potential" individually.
Our engines were built by the same people therefore have (in theory) the same build quality / set-up and vis a vis one MAP fits all (ish)
F.C.
F.C. All the US engines are the same, built by A.E.R. in the US. As recommended by 1G.
Alex,
That's true, but they can't help themselves when it comes to the bits they bolt onto the engine. Different turbos, different intercoolers, different dump valves the list goes on. They never start with a "standard" engine, thereby giving themselves a benchmark on which to improve. If they're all starting from different places then the race to the finish line will be easier for some than others. Another factor is that the cars are put together by different people/garages...this can have a lot to do with the equation too.
Martin.
Edited by V6GTO on Monday 19th March 21:28
the power is measured on a Dynojet - you can take 15 - 20% off those figures
for those that are interested - the reason why is here :
Read the last paragraph from the first document and the first paragraph on the second document
www.factorypro.com/magazine/Sports%20car%20magazine/scan0002.pd f
www.factorypro.com/magazine/Sports%20car%20magazine/scan0003.pd f
for those that are interested - the reason why is here :
Read the last paragraph from the first document and the first paragraph on the second document
www.factorypro.com/magazine/Sports%20car%20magazine/scan0002.pd f
www.factorypro.com/magazine/Sports%20car%20magazine/scan0003.pd f
gadgeroonie said:
the power is measured on a Dynojet - you can take 15 - 20% off those figures
for those that are interested - the reason why is here :
Read the last paragraph from the first document and the first paragraph on the second document
www.factorypro.com/magazine/Sports%20car%20magazine/scan0002.pdf
www.factorypro.com/magazine/Sports%20car%20magazine/scan0003.pdf
Sorry to be a spanner, but that is a motorcycle dyno article with just one roller. How do you get a Noble onto that.... for those that are interested - the reason why is here :
Read the last paragraph from the first document and the first paragraph on the second document
www.factorypro.com/magazine/Sports%20car%20magazine/scan0002.pdf
www.factorypro.com/magazine/Sports%20car%20magazine/scan0003.pdf
Dear All,
As Trevor has pointed out, he wasn't given an opportunity to develop the US maps as he would have liked. The end result of that lack of funding is that the mapping that we have in the US is not at all close to what he developed for the UK cars. I'm not sure that Trevor has ever even seen what the end result actually looks like in one of our cars. I have posted an example of what was in my car and what my remap looks like so you can see the difference here:
www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?p=18949#post18949
Trevor, I think that your comments are probably based on the assumption that what we already had in the US was close to what you developed in the UK. Unfortunately that is not the case, as you can see. I doubt that you would say that the first dyno plot of the map I had is in any way acceptable by your standards. Hopefully now, you can understand why it has been very frustrating for us not to have someone of your talents that could give us hands on support such as you have been providing for the UK owners. Hoover can now fill that void for us and he can now do what you wanted to do from the start, provide us with maps that actually work as well as the ones you use in the UK.
Best Regards,
Craig
As Trevor has pointed out, he wasn't given an opportunity to develop the US maps as he would have liked. The end result of that lack of funding is that the mapping that we have in the US is not at all close to what he developed for the UK cars. I'm not sure that Trevor has ever even seen what the end result actually looks like in one of our cars. I have posted an example of what was in my car and what my remap looks like so you can see the difference here:
www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?p=18949#post18949
Trevor, I think that your comments are probably based on the assumption that what we already had in the US was close to what you developed in the UK. Unfortunately that is not the case, as you can see. I doubt that you would say that the first dyno plot of the map I had is in any way acceptable by your standards. Hopefully now, you can understand why it has been very frustrating for us not to have someone of your talents that could give us hands on support such as you have been providing for the UK owners. Hoover can now fill that void for us and he can now do what you wanted to do from the start, provide us with maps that actually work as well as the ones you use in the UK.
Best Regards,
Craig
caccobra said:
Dear All,
As Trevor has pointed out, he wasn't given an opportunity to develop the US maps as he would have liked. The end result of that lack of funding is that the mapping that we have in the US is not at all close to what he developed for the UK cars. I'm not sure that Trevor has ever even seen what the end result actually looks like in one of our cars. I have posted an example of what was in my car and what my remap looks like so you can see the difference here:
www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?p=18949#post18949
Trevor, I think that your comments are probably based on the assumption that what we already had in the US was close to what you developed in the UK. Unfortunately that is not the case, as you can see. I doubt that you would say that the first dyno plot of the map I had is in any way acceptable by your standards. Hopefully now, you can understand why it has been very frustrating for us not to have someone of your talents that could give us hands on support such as you have been providing for the UK owners. Hoover can now fill that void for us and he can now do what you wanted to do from the start, provide us with maps that actually work as well as the ones you use in the UK.
Best Regards,
Craig
As Trevor has pointed out, he wasn't given an opportunity to develop the US maps as he would have liked. The end result of that lack of funding is that the mapping that we have in the US is not at all close to what he developed for the UK cars. I'm not sure that Trevor has ever even seen what the end result actually looks like in one of our cars. I have posted an example of what was in my car and what my remap looks like so you can see the difference here:
www.nobleforums.com/showthread.php?p=18949#post18949
Trevor, I think that your comments are probably based on the assumption that what we already had in the US was close to what you developed in the UK. Unfortunately that is not the case, as you can see. I doubt that you would say that the first dyno plot of the map I had is in any way acceptable by your standards. Hopefully now, you can understand why it has been very frustrating for us not to have someone of your talents that could give us hands on support such as you have been providing for the UK owners. Hoover can now fill that void for us and he can now do what you wanted to do from the start, provide us with maps that actually work as well as the ones you use in the UK.
Best Regards,
Craig
Craig,
I see where you are coming from with regard to the plots. For sure, the second plot is about what I remember my map producing on that Kentucky dyno in terms of numbers for power and AFR. I don't know why it ended up so different in your car. The fuelling on your car is nothing like I would have mapped to. The cars over here are nothing like that either. So I'm at a loss to explain why it's so different.
YellowShed
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