Porsche Tiptronic

[wanta996]

Why is it that the Tiptronic 911s are looked down upon and seem to sell for less used BUT the Ferrari F1 and Lambo F1's seem to hold there value so much better that the manuals? Is it because Porsches tiptronic is not upto the job? A bit like the problem the Vanquish had with paddle shift?

As you know or may not know i am on the look out for a used 911 and OPC (Nottingham i think) has a Silver 2002 low mileage C4s at private prices BUT its a Tiptronic.

OPC Nottingham
996 C4s
Arctic Silver
Colour (interior): Seats: full leather - metropol blue
Mileage: 33,000 m
Registration Year: 07/02
Price: £41,995

Edited by wanta996 on Wednesday 21st February 11:30

[supermono]

I think you're comparing a traditional automatic, torque converter based slushbox (aka tiptronic) with a conventional gearbox that is being "shifted" automatically (like BMW's SMG)

Could be wrong though.

SM

[bermyandy]

Its a very personal preference. The porsche is an auto box with buttons, wheres the F1 is ( i think) effectively a manual box

Just means you can sometimes get some odd gear changes in the porsche box

For some its the only way to get into a Porsche. For others, they think it takes away the experience of driving a porsche.

Drive them both, and then pick. Dont be swayed by others peoples opinions. Its not a small amount of money to spend on a car, so pick what YOU are happy, not just what someone on here says

[wanta996]

I may be SUPERMONO - Whats the difference, i just assumed the F430 F1 used the same or similar system to a 997 Tip? No?

[Dr S]

supermono said:

I think you're comparing a traditional automatic, torque converter based slushbox (aka tiptronic) with a conventional gearbox that is being "shifted" automatically (like BMW's SMG)

Could be wrong though.

SM

That's the issue. Tiptronic is a bog standard auto and a poor example of it's kind. Go and test drive both and you'll see

Edited by Dr S on Wednesday 21st February 11:47

[Vesuvius 996]

Interesting.

The Porsche system is an auto box with a torque converter. The others a manual boxes with mechanised shifting systems.

I love the Tiptronic. It it very easy to use, quicker than a manual according to Barry Hartech, and it makes commuting easy. It is also very intelligent, doesn't downshift or upshift in corners or on gradients, and "learns" your driving style. You can use it as a manual as well with shift on the wheel.

There are some people on here who berate the tip box, but you can normally spot them from their Nomex underpants and Puma raceboots, worn as they shave the vital two tenths off the trip to Tesco for an egg bap at lunchtime.

[thegoose]

The Glass's Guide values are higher for Tiptronic cars, showing that they retain part of the extra cost of that box when new. I think it's right too in the later market where most buyers will be using the cars everyday. Earlier examples will be worth similar, or less than manuals as they are more likely to be bought by less regular users. These are generalisations but that's how market values work with anything.

On a late C4S, the colours and presence or abscence of Sat Nav will have more of an effect on value/saleability than the gearbox will.

[Dr S]

Vesuvius 996 said:

There are some people on here who berate the tip box, but you can normally spot them from their Nomex underpants and Puma raceboots, worn as they shave the vital two tenths off the trip to Tesco for an egg bap at lunchtime.

I guess these two thenths had a vital effect on you so that you'll be going manual on the 997 as well...

[clorenzen]

Whereas the Vanquish is a manual gearbox with an automatic clutch where the gears are operated by the paddles, the tiptronic is an automatic box with a paddle override a bit like the ZF touchtronic gearbox in the DB9.

I have owned both and must confess that the tiptronic in the Porsche is very poor compaed to the ZF touchtronic. Yes it is convenient, yes it adapts to your driving style but it has a number of flaws. It shift up to 5th gear far to early so that you always feel that you are driving in the wrong gear. If you want to accelerate quickly it will take ages to "kick down" unless you override it manually. The downshifts are crude and not as in the DB9 where it blips the throttle doing so. All in all it spoils the driving experience - but it is conveniet.

[rubystone]

It's fair to say that the Tip in 964s was a dog. The last 996 Tip I drove was much better but still had that "torque converter" affect. I haven't driven a turbo Tip or 997, but can only assume that like a good wine, it has improved with age!

[kayc]

thegoose said:

The Glass's Guide values are higher for Tiptronic cars, showing that they retain part of the extra cost of that box when new. I think it's right too in the later market where most buyers will be using the cars everyday. Earlier examples will be worth similar, or less than manuals as they are more likely to be bought by less regular users. These are generalisations but that's how market values work with anything.

On a late C4S, the colours and presence or abscence of Sat Nav will have more of an effect on value/saleability than the gearbox will.

What a load of bollox..colour will have a bigger effect on prices than what type of gearbox?I realise Porsche owners now are not quite the enthusiasts of years by..but the day that people over look the type of gearbox because they like the colour surely isnt here yet?

[loach]

Tiptronic is poo. Porsche have gotten by for ages with it, because demand for a more contemporary alternative to the ancient and wheezy old automatic still fitted to self-shifting Porsches hasn't reached a level where Porsche has felt compelled to do a bit of engineering. DSG is on its way, and it will offer something to rival the F1-style systems offered by BMW, Ferrari, Aston, Audi, VW, Maserati, Lamborghini, Bugatti and others. It has been delayed for ages, no doubt due to internal crapology going on in the VW family group. In essence, as has been pointed out already here, the F1-style systems such as the SMG 'box fitted to a new M5, are manual gearboxes with actuators fitted to operate the clutch and select the gears. These types of systems aren't universally great, but they do allow the driver a lot more freedom in terms of gear selection and so on. At times a bit jerky and/or brutal, at least in principal, these types of systems allow the driver to call the shots and rev the knackers off the car/select the wrong gear and so forth if that's what he wants to do. The Tiptronic system is a standard automatic box, with a pair of buttons that allow some degree of control over which one of the 5 available gears you can select. Because its an auto, it'll still make that groaning, crappy CVT-like noise as you drive along, and as often as not, it'll shift up early or elect to start in second unless you are constantly on top of it to make sure it's doing what you want it to. It's fine if you are stuck in traffic, or are missing some limbs, but if you're keen at all, you'll end up frustrated at the Tiptronic 'box. The enthusiast's choice it ain't.

Second hand pricing will always be a supply and demand story, and when you look at models like the 997TT (for example), I find it hard to imagine that in a few years, the tiny percentage of these delivered with the manual 'box, will not be worth more than those fitted with Tiptronic. There'll be fewer about, and they will be more likely to appeal to the enthusiast. I'd rather a manual polka-dotted car with no navigation and a crap spec, than a tiptronic-equipped car in the right colour with all the bits I want.

[johnfm]

Dr S said:

supermono said:

I think you're comparing a traditional automatic, torque converter based slushbox (aka tiptronic) with a conventional gearbox that is being "shifted" automatically (like BMW's SMG)

Could be wrong though.

SM

That's the issue. Tiptronic is a bog standard auto and a poor example of it's kind. Go and test drive both and you'll see

Edited by Dr S on Wednesday 21st February 11:47

A poor example of its kind? Are you sure? Or do you just dislike automatics?

[Dr S]

johnfm said:

Dr S said:

supermono said:

I think you're comparing a traditional automatic, torque converter based slushbox (aka tiptronic) with a conventional gearbox that is being "shifted" automatically (like BMW's SMG)

Could be wrong though.

SM

That's the issue. Tiptronic is a bog standard auto and a poor example of it's kind. Go and test drive both and you'll see

Edited by Dr S on Wednesday 21st February 11:47

A poor example of its kind? Are you sure? Or do you just dislike automatics?

I find the DSG box a much more convincing piece of equipment with lots of potential

[stealth997]

Firstly, Loach, I respect your views on this but..

"Because its an auto, it'll still make that groaning, crappy CVT-like noise as you drive along, and as often as not, it'll shift up early or elect to start in second unless you are constantly on top of it to make sure it's doing what you want it to."

Sorry, but that does not happen in my tip. I'm from the video game generation and my thumbs have been using buttons to change gear since I was a toddler. It's perfectly responsive and has never done anything it shouldnt have done. All you do is whack it in manual and use the buttons on the wheel. The car then gives you control over all the gears. Perhaps you've driven a tip but left it in auto?? That would certainly explain the "groaning" your refer to.

Wanna996 - the best thing for you to do is compare the 2 types and make your own opinion - after all it's a personal decision. Plus, you'll see how many differing views there are on this at PH!

Happy hunting!

[supermono]

I think that aside from any shift quality issues, the problem with anything containing a torque converter is that it saps power to run the internals. Has anyone got a figure for the % of your torques that are being wasted stirring hydraulic fluid? And they'll be heavier and bigger too I'm guessing.

SMG/DSG/etc gearboxes are traditional manual gearboxes so don't have any more losses than normal, except there are some computer controlled actuators moving the mechanisms the gearstick and clutch pedal is normally connected to.

SM

[clorenzen]

Sorry, but that does not happen in my tip. I'm from the video game generation and my thumbs have been using buttons to change gear since I was a toddler. It's perfectly responsive and has never done anything it shouldnt have done. All you do is whack it in manual and use the buttons on the wheel. The car then gives you control over all the gears. Perhaps you've driven a tip but left it in auto?? That would certainly explain the "groaning" your refer to.

Well Stealth, this must be a truth with some modifications. Shifting up I agree that you can control that process quite allright, shifting down however is crude to say the least. Where the DB9 box blips the throttle making a very smooth transmission down from say 4th to 2nd adjusting the revs, the Porsche simply slots into the lower gear overrewing in the process - on a wet surface you might even end up in the ditch during the process.

[loach]

stealth997 said:

Firstly, Loach, I respect your views on this but..

"Because its an auto, it'll still make that groaning, crappy CVT-like noise as you drive along, and as often as not, it'll shift up early or elect to start in second unless you are constantly on top of it to make sure it's doing what you want it to."

Sorry, but that does not happen in my tip. I'm from the video game generation and my thumbs have been using buttons to change gear since I was a toddler. It's perfectly responsive and has never done anything it shouldnt have done. All you do is whack it in manual and use the buttons on the wheel. The car then gives you control over all the gears. Perhaps you've driven a tip but left it in auto?? That would certainly explain the "groaning" your refer to.

I live in a German city, and from the balcony, can hear a multitude of Porsches going about their daily business in the streets around me. I can't be the only one that can tell which is a Tip and which isn't just from the noise it makes - can I? Or has my anorak now mutated into such groteque proportions that it has started to endow me with super-powers? And the groaning I refer to doesn't even mean exclusively that 'UUUuuuuaaaahhhhh' shite a Tip goes on with when its trundling off in auto on a full-bore belt from the lights - it also includes that 'Uuuaaahhh-uuuaahh'* it makes when it's changing gear. I've driven a lot of Tips. I even owned one once *shudder*. On a relatively recent thousand-odd mile trip in a Cayman S Tip, I concluded that some inprovements had been made, and it didn't even totally destroy the car. But it still had all of the drawbacks I referred to. It blunted the car, dulled its responses, and left me gagging for a manual 'box. And try a Tip that's a few years old. In a TT, for example, where presumably the Tip is getting a bit of a workout, this whole moany groany business seems to really go to town. last couple of second-hand 996 TT Tips I drove sounded like a pair of shagged old Merc taxis.

Tiptronic is an automatic - with all the positives and negatives that go with an automatic. It's not SMG. It's not F1. It's not E-Gear. It's not particularly clever. It's not something I'd expect to still see slapped into a Porsche in 2001, let alone 2007; and it's long overdue a replacement that befits Porsche's 'Ing' blahblah, marketing pretentions and sporting heritage.

As you've said, if you're happy to keep your thumbs busy, then you can get around some of the drawbacks. If you take a few deep breaths and think of kittens, you can probably even kid yourself that Tip isn't all bad. But if you've got to work the problem, think ahead, slap the lever around, and go at the buttons like you've got a nervous disorder to make believe the gearbox is doing what you want, then what's wrong with a manual where there's no doubt who's in charge opf proceedings?

[BliarOut]

clorenzen said:

Sorry, but that does not happen in my tip. I'm from the video game generation and my thumbs have been using buttons to change gear since I was a toddler. It's perfectly responsive and has never done anything it shouldnt have done. All you do is whack it in manual and use the buttons on the wheel. The car then gives you control over all the gears. Perhaps you've driven a tip but left it in auto?? That would certainly explain the "groaning" your refer to.

Well Stealth, this must be a truth with some modifications. Shifting up I agree that you can control that process quite allright, shifting down however is crude to say the least. Where the DB9 box blips the throttle making a very smooth transmission down from say 4th to 2nd adjusting the revs, the Porsche simply slots into the lower gear overrewing in the process - on a wet surface you might even end up in the ditch during the process.

That's not been my experience of driving a tip for circa 15K miles in manual mode. It won't allow you to change down until the road speed drops sufficiently to allow you to do it.

It's different from driving a manual but you have to learn to adapt your driving technique to the car. Once you've mastered the art it's fine.

[Vesuvius 996]

BliarOut said:

clorenzen said:

Sorry, but that does not happen in my tip. I'm from the video game generation and my thumbs have been using buttons to change gear since I was a toddler. It's perfectly responsive and has never done anything it shouldnt have done. All you do is whack it in manual and use the buttons on the wheel. The car then gives you control over all the gears. Perhaps you've driven a tip but left it in auto?? That would certainly explain the "groaning" your refer to.

Well Stealth, this must be a truth with some modifications. Shifting up I agree that you can control that process quite allright, shifting down however is crude to say the least. Where the DB9 box blips the throttle making a very smooth transmission down from say 4th to 2nd adjusting the revs, the Porsche simply slots into the lower gear overrewing in the process - on a wet surface you might even end up in the ditch during the process.

That's not been my experience of driving a tip for circa 15K miles in manual mode. It won't allow you to change down until the road speed drops sufficiently to allow you to do it.

It's different from driving a manual but you have to learn to adapt your driving technique to the car. Once you've mastered the art it's fine.

Correct. The computer won't allow a downshift which will cause a level 1 over rev.

This is a good reason for being confident that the Tip car won't have been "buzzed" and prevent a warranty claim.

You can't over rev a Tip on a downchange.