996 PCCB Question

[rjben]

Hi All,

I've done a search but can't seem to find a definitive answer on this one.

I understand that there was an issue with the PCCB's when tracked on earlier cars. Has this issue been resolved? If so when was this resolved i.e. would a 2003 MkII GT3 be susceptible to this issue. Also, if this issue has been resolved then what kind of life expectancy do PCCB's have if tracked 3 or 4 times a year with 5 or 6k of quickish road driving. I understand that this is a very subjective question but I'm just trying to find out if PCCB's would be considered consumables in this situation?

Thanks,

Rob

[slippydiff]

I don't think there is a definitive answer.
The safest option seems to be:- if you intend tracking the car, remove them and replace either with original Porsche 350mm steel discs which will stand 4 or 5 trackday use, or Parrs /JZ Machtechs Brembo/Alcon alternatives (which will last up to 5 times longer)

If the PCCB discs are in perfect condition . I suggest you get them checked by someone who knows exactly what they are looking for (best get an Indy then ) and you only intend using the car on the road, they'll most likely be fine.

Personally, and having been shafted by Reading over a PCCB issue, I wouldn't buy any car with the generation one PCCBs fitted.
It's most likely too soon to comment on the durability of the PCCBs fitted to the 997 GT3/RS but no doubt time will tell if all the issues have been addressed ..........

[rjben]

Thanks for that quick response!

Can I assume that PCCB's are the same then for a Mk1 & Mk2 GT3 and have only been updated for the 997 GT3?

Regards,

Rob

[Geneve]

The latest 997 GT3 PCCBs are often referred to as Gen 3, so there may have been two previous specifications.

[slippydiff]

rjben said:

Thanks for that quick response!

Can I assume that PCCB's are the same then for a Mk1 & Mk2 GT3 and have only been updated for the 997 GT3?

Regards,

Rob

PCCB was not fitted to the Mk 1 GT3.
Geneve is correct in saying there are/or have been three generations of PCCBs.
Several owners in the US who post on www.rennlist.com appear to be quite happy with the Generation 2 items (there is a way of establishing which are Gen 1 and which are Gen 2 by the pattern the cross drillings are located on the face of the disc)
Furthermore I believe the last-of-the line 996 Turbo S came fitted with Gen 2 PCCB.

Edited by slippydiff on Wednesday 7th February 14:45

Edited by slippydiff on Wednesday 7th February 14:47

[GuyR]

There is a Carrera GT in the UK that has has already knackered it's PCCBs from trackdays, so it's seems the problem has not been fixed entirely.

[993rsr]

Performance wise the ones on the CGT are chalk and cheese to the 996GT2. I've done two track days, the brakes performed faultlessly with no fade and similar pad wear to steel discs and no percievable wear to the disc surface. However, the cost of retrofitting a Brembo set up is £2.5k including new mounting bells.

[rjben]

Thanks for the answers gents. I guess the best option is to buy a car with steel disks and change as required rather than risk destroying a set of PCCBs.

Regards,

Rob

[AL001]

Just replace the PCCB's with steels, if and when they fail, just as you would do with steels. Should think of them as a freebie on used car as no premium to pay.

It's also worth bearing in mind that it's easy to damage any brakes on track with lack of proper warm-up, cool down, poor braking (too early and for too long), etc.


P.S. Most problems seem related to Gen 1 PCCB's, fitted to GT2's.

[Kurgen_]

AL001 said:

It's also worth bearing in mind that it's easy to damage any brakes on track with lack of proper warm-up, cool down, poor braking (too early and for too long), etc.

Think this is as much issue as anything else.

I wonder how many people just abused their PCCB when they first came out on the GT2 etc, and thought Porsche would guarantee the lifetime of the brakes, regardless of abuse..

I had PCCB on my last RS and had absolutely no probs after plenty of trackwork last year, in sweltering conditions.. but I was very careful with brake application and cool down.

Flame suit on

[cableguy]

Whilst there have been a few PCCB problems listed on this and similar forums, these are IMO generally from people who have acquired used cars not knowing the true background to the cars use/abuse. It would be good to hear from someone who has owned a car from new with gen1/2 PCCB's fitted to see how they have worn under their own various driving conditions. I personally feel that with the way Porsche originally campaigned the PCCB System is why many have been abused due to their advertised longevity.

Hands up all those who love their PCCB's...

C.

[thegoose]

AL001 said:

Just replace the PCCB's with steels, if and when they fail, just as you would do with steels. Should think of them as a freebie on used car as no premium to pay.

I have just sourced a GT3 RS for a client wanting to do some trackdays in it. We found him a car with steel brakes as it happened (collected it today actually), but had one not been available his preference on a PCCB car was to replace with steels immediately. This was so that the very expensive PCCB discs were retained in good condition and could be re-fitted on re-sale (thereby keeping the car original spec).

If you do as AL001 suggests then you will end up with a set of broken PCCB discs and non orignal equipment worn (to one degree or another) steel ones on the car when you come to re-sell. Also, rather inconvenient if your PCCB discs break when you're on a track day and have to go home for an early bath too (particularly if it's at Spa, as this client's intending to do, and driving the car there and back).

[AL001]

Are you keeping the original tyres too? The OP was asking about a standard GT3, rather than RS. As such, there's less of an anoraky dedication to wrapping items in bubble wrap and storing them in the attic.

Could you enlighten me how many GT3 MK2/RS's have had PCCB discs break? You make it sound like this is a common occurence so I assume this is based on factual evidence.

When Gen 1 PCCB's seen in GT2's deteroriate, this is clearly visible for someone that knows what a normal condition PCCB disc looks like. Gen 2 in GT3's, by most accounts, were a great improvement. Every braking system is fallible to operator error though.

Think most 997GT3/RS owners with PCCB, have decided to drive the car with the brakes they paid £6k for, rather than removing them for future posterity also.

[rjben]

that is a very good point - take them off and enjoy the benefits at resale!

Regarding the comments on warm up etc - I just don't understand this? I've had many a quick car and my last was a seriously modified track elise with nearly 200bhp and sticky tyres. My brakes always warmed up at roughly the same rate as the tyres - ie you can only push it to the limit of grip, brakes do not get excersided beyond that? Can somebody explain?

Regards,

Rob

PS, few beers, forgive the bad typing.

[thegoose]

AL001 said:

Are you keeping the original tyres too? The OP was asking about a standard GT3, rather than RS. As such, there's less of an anoraky dedication to wrapping items in bubble wrap and storing them in the attic.

Probably true.

AL001 said:

Could you enlighten me how many GT3 MK2/RS's have had PCCB discs break? You make it sound like this is a common occurence so I assume this is based on factual evidence.

I don't have any figures at all (do you?) but suffice to say it's enough to warrant this type of discussion in the first place.

AL001 said:

When Gen 1 PCCB's seen in GT2's deteroriate, this is clearly visible for someone that knows what a normal condition PCCB disc looks like. Gen 2 in GT3's, by most accounts, were a great improvement. Every braking system is fallible to operator error though.

Think most 997GT3/RS owners with PCCB, have decided to drive the car with the brakes they paid £6k for, rather than removing them for future posterity also.

Calm down a bit, will you?! I was only adding another viewpoint to the discussion. That viewpoint was not from having paid £6k for PCCB, but rather from not wanting it in the first place, nor the liability of £4000/£4300 (front/rear) each disc to replace them when they fail, the probability of which, whilst not certain, was a sufficient deterrent given the potential cost.

[slippydiff]

AL001 said:

Are you keeping the original tyres too? The OP was asking about a standard GT3, rather than RS. As such, there's less of an anoraky dedication to wrapping items in bubble wrap and storing them in the attic.

Could you enlighten me how many GT3 MK2/RS's have had PCCB discs break? You make it sound like this is a common occurence so I assume this is based on factual evidence.

When Gen 1 PCCB's seen in GT2's deteroriate, this is clearly visible for someone that knows what a normal condition PCCB disc looks like. Gen 2 in GT3's, by most accounts, were a great improvement. Every braking system is fallible to operator error though.

Think most 997GT3/RS owners with PCCB, have decided to drive the car with the brakes they paid £6k for, rather than removing them for future posterity also.

Bit of difference between a set of tyres costing £900 (and clearly consumable) and a set of discs costing IRO £10K wouldn't you say ?

As regards 997 GT3/RS PCCBs being kept for future posterity, only time will tell..........(but I really do hope they're as durable as Porsche made them out to be originally)
The fact Porsche have clearly modified the method of construction and the materials used (not to mention increasing the diameter) indicates there were significant issues with the first generation PCCBs.

Whether or not in years to come the lack of a set of pristine PCCBs with a car will be an issue come sale time, remains to be seen.
When these cars find there way into the hands of the "pipe and beards" mob it may very well be ...............

Who would have thought the magnesium cup wheels on a 964RS would become such an intrinsic part of the package ? to the degree that if they're not fitted to the car come resale time a lot of people would see this as devaluing the car ?

Likewise the Speedline wheels on a 993RS (overweight, very susceptible to corrosion and to my way of thinking not particularly pleasing aesthetically) but try selling a car without them now and see what the first thing a propsective purchaser says...........

[thegoose]

Just in case there's any confusion, the car we sourced (and hence the others we looked at with PCCB) was a 2004 996 GT3 RS, not a 997.

[AL001]

Sorry but think you'll find that very few Mk2 GT3/RS owners with PCCB have any intention of swallowing Porsche's replacement cost once the PCCB discs are worn. They will simply change to steel, just in the same way you would do so if replacing steels when worn. The liability is not as you suggest.

I struggle to think why someone would seek you out to source them a GT3 if this is representative of the information you are giving out.

[slippydiff]

AL001 said:

Sorry but think you'll find that very few Mk2 GT3/RS owners with PCCB have any intention of swallowing Porsche's replacement cost once the PCCB discs are worn. They will simply change to steel, just in the same way you would do so if replacing steels when worn. The liability is not as you suggest.

I struggle to think why someone would seek you out to source them a GT3 if this is representative of the information you are giving out.

Take a Chill Pill Dude

And that's the point precisely, no one in their right mind will stump up for replacement PCCBs, so why risk using them until they're scrap and THEN go out and buy a set of steels ?
Surely it's better not to risk them AND have the option of being able to put them back on the car for whatever reason at a later date.Especially when the steel replacements are relatively cheap in comparison ?

[WetWipe]

slippydiff said:

AL001 said:

Sorry but think you'll find that very few Mk2 GT3/RS owners with PCCB have any intention of swallowing Porsche's replacement cost once the PCCB discs are worn. They will simply change to steel, just in the same way you would do so if replacing steels when worn. The liability is not as you suggest.

I struggle to think why someone would seek you out to source them a GT3 if this is representative of the information you are giving out.

Take a Chill Pill Dude

And that's the point precisely, no one in their right mind will stump up for replacement PCCBs, so why risk using them until they're scrap and THEN go out and buy a set of steels ?
Surely it's better not to risk them AND have the option of being able to put them back on the car for whatever reason at a later date.Especially when the steel replacements are relatively cheap in comparison ?

defo. as daft as it sounds and irrespective of the replacement costs, buyers in later years will want the comfort that the PCCBs are in good nick, and if they are they would prefer to buy an original car rather than something that has been effectively de-spec'd.

and completely OT slippy when are we going to see you on Mastermind your specialist subject of course being "Porsche Ceramic Composite Braking systems 2003 - present"