997RS/996RS driven at Brands hatch Indy
Discussion
Bands Hatch Indy on Monday was the first time that I'd seen the 997GT3 - RS on circuit.
I thought that you guys might be interested in my thoughts....
I was impressed with the exit speeds that the 997 could achieve. Brands indy is essentialy 2nd and 3rd gear corners and the 997 deployed its power on the exits particularly well. Without a passenger in the afternoon, the balance fell back to the 996, but the Parr car has after market spings and shock absorbers fitted. A passenger always makes a lot of difference but I was amazed quite how much it made on the lap at the Indy circuit. Factoring in the afternoon session, I would say that the relative lap speed comparisons were inconclusive. I was lucky enough to drive a 997RS in the afternoon though. This gave me a much better oportunity to compare the cars behaviour on the circuit and it was immediately obvious where the differences were. The 997RS is subtatially more tractable in 3rd gear which feels long legged in the 996 by comparison. To maximise exit speed in Graham hill bend a 996 driver would reqiure 2nd gear before turn in (requiring a heal toe downshift from third after accellerating down the hill from druids) then pull 3rd just before the exit of graham hill. Take it in 3rd and the car boggs down and forward accelleration is lost. The same applys to clearways, again a 996 driver requires to heal toe downchage to second in the very tricky braking section before turn in. If you don't, again you loose drive onto the pit straight and a lot of time on the lap. In the 997 neither of these downchanges are needed, graham hill is an easy third gear corner and if you are a quick driver, clearways is also third. Accelleration in 3rd in the 997 is very strong and while the 996 driver is doing some kind of tap dance routine, the 997 driver just drives away. The 997GT3 engine/gearbox combination - especially in 3rd has as definate advantage over the 996. It is a bigger and more weildy car which - even in track mode - pitches considerably, requiring oposite lock correction under braking on the bumpy section at Paddock bend (which is approached in 5th as opposed to 4th in the 996). The chasis lacked feel - especially the steering - and gave you the impression that you were driving an extremely quick and capable road car, the 996 felt a lot more like the 964RS's (Thanks Jamie and Des) that I drove earlier in the day. The 996RS also suffered from pitch on standard suspension so this is nothing new, but it did feel much more comunicative than the 997. After I got out of the 997, I got straight into the Parr 996 a drove a few laps to get a comparison. From the baking zone to apex, the 996 had the advantage. In the slow/medium corners at Brands, apex to exit went to the 997. In terms of chasis feel/communication there is a noticable gap between the two cars, the 996 feeling much more like the 964RS. It was almost as though the 997 was telling you ony what you needed to know. No more, no less. On the race track this - I think - is to it's detriment. On the road, it may well be an advantage.
I understand that the adaptive damping on the 997 can be tuned both in terms on bump and rebound and JRZ are currently working on a prototype. It would be interesting to see whether the chasis can be tuned to become not only more capable on the track, but more communicative. It this can be done, I think that the 997GT3RS would be an awsome car. I suspect that passive damping may be the answer. Based on driving both cars in anger on the circuit, would I buy one over a 996? No. The 997 was quick but lacked far too much feel.
Steve R
I thought that you guys might be interested in my thoughts....
I was impressed with the exit speeds that the 997 could achieve. Brands indy is essentialy 2nd and 3rd gear corners and the 997 deployed its power on the exits particularly well. Without a passenger in the afternoon, the balance fell back to the 996, but the Parr car has after market spings and shock absorbers fitted. A passenger always makes a lot of difference but I was amazed quite how much it made on the lap at the Indy circuit. Factoring in the afternoon session, I would say that the relative lap speed comparisons were inconclusive. I was lucky enough to drive a 997RS in the afternoon though. This gave me a much better oportunity to compare the cars behaviour on the circuit and it was immediately obvious where the differences were. The 997RS is subtatially more tractable in 3rd gear which feels long legged in the 996 by comparison. To maximise exit speed in Graham hill bend a 996 driver would reqiure 2nd gear before turn in (requiring a heal toe downshift from third after accellerating down the hill from druids) then pull 3rd just before the exit of graham hill. Take it in 3rd and the car boggs down and forward accelleration is lost. The same applys to clearways, again a 996 driver requires to heal toe downchage to second in the very tricky braking section before turn in. If you don't, again you loose drive onto the pit straight and a lot of time on the lap. In the 997 neither of these downchanges are needed, graham hill is an easy third gear corner and if you are a quick driver, clearways is also third. Accelleration in 3rd in the 997 is very strong and while the 996 driver is doing some kind of tap dance routine, the 997 driver just drives away. The 997GT3 engine/gearbox combination - especially in 3rd has as definate advantage over the 996. It is a bigger and more weildy car which - even in track mode - pitches considerably, requiring oposite lock correction under braking on the bumpy section at Paddock bend (which is approached in 5th as opposed to 4th in the 996). The chasis lacked feel - especially the steering - and gave you the impression that you were driving an extremely quick and capable road car, the 996 felt a lot more like the 964RS's (Thanks Jamie and Des) that I drove earlier in the day. The 996RS also suffered from pitch on standard suspension so this is nothing new, but it did feel much more comunicative than the 997. After I got out of the 997, I got straight into the Parr 996 a drove a few laps to get a comparison. From the baking zone to apex, the 996 had the advantage. In the slow/medium corners at Brands, apex to exit went to the 997. In terms of chasis feel/communication there is a noticable gap between the two cars, the 996 feeling much more like the 964RS. It was almost as though the 997 was telling you ony what you needed to know. No more, no less. On the race track this - I think - is to it's detriment. On the road, it may well be an advantage.
I understand that the adaptive damping on the 997 can be tuned both in terms on bump and rebound and JRZ are currently working on a prototype. It would be interesting to see whether the chasis can be tuned to become not only more capable on the track, but more communicative. It this can be done, I think that the 997GT3RS would be an awsome car. I suspect that passive damping may be the answer. Based on driving both cars in anger on the circuit, would I buy one over a 996? No. The 997 was quick but lacked far too much feel.
Steve R
Good assessment Steve, considering the Parr car has had years of their excellent development it makes the performance of the "out of the box" 997 version even more impressive.
Just an observation, but with respect to the feel and involvement of the 996 being superior, it's the age old arguement about the latest Porsche pushing the envelope of performance and not involving you so much. many of us find this lack of involvement with the 996 after our stripped out aircooled boneshakers
Just an observation, but with respect to the feel and involvement of the 996 being superior, it's the age old arguement about the latest Porsche pushing the envelope of performance and not involving you so much. many of us find this lack of involvement with the 996 after our stripped out aircooled boneshakers
clubsport said:
Good assessment Steve, considering the Parr car has had years of their excellent development it makes the performance of the "out of the box" 997 version even more impressive.
Just an observation, but with respect to the feel and involvement of the 996 being superior, it's the age old arguement about the latest Porsche pushing the envelope of performance and not involving you so much. many of us find this lack of involvement with the 996 after our stripped out aircooled boneshakers
Just an observation, but with respect to the feel and involvement of the 996 being superior, it's the age old arguement about the latest Porsche pushing the envelope of performance and not involving you so much. many of us find this lack of involvement with the 996 after our stripped out aircooled boneshakers
Point taken. I drove 2 964RS's earlier that day. The 996 was far closer to the 964 in terms of steering and chasis feel. It was very interesting to drive the cars so closely together. Thanks again to Des and Jamie. The 964 really is a beautifuly balanced car.
Steve
Dr JonboyG said:
Out of interest, how much of the difference could be due to the 997 being almost new, and the 996 (and 964s) being a lot older and having more miles on them?
If you were to compare boxfresh 996 and 997 GT3 RSs, would the 997 shine more?
If you were to compare boxfresh 996 and 997 GT3 RSs, would the 997 shine more?
The drive train was very impressive anyway. It was chasis feel which dissapointed. That wont change.
Steve
steve rance said:
Dr JonboyG said:
Out of interest, how much of the difference could be due to the 997 being almost new, and the 996 (and 964s) being a lot older and having more miles on them?
If you were to compare boxfresh 996 and 997 GT3 RSs, would the 997 shine more?
If you were to compare boxfresh 996 and 997 GT3 RSs, would the 997 shine more?
The drive train was very impressive anyway. It was chasis feel which dissapointed. That wont change.
Steve
Interesting and useful post Steve. This 'feel' thing is very personal isn't it and I'll reserve judgement until I've had my own car on track. However at the moment, from a purely road point of view, I would say that the 997GT3 has bags of feel/feedback/call it what you will, with incredibly intuitive steering and front end bite compared to the 996 variant. Any more feedback would actually be unwelcome IMO - if the car was going to remain purely a road tool.
kayc said:
steve rance said:
Dr JonboyG said:
Out of interest, how much of the difference could be due to the 997 being almost new, and the 996 (and 964s) being a lot older and having more miles on them?
If you were to compare boxfresh 996 and 997 GT3 RSs, would the 997 shine more?
If you were to compare boxfresh 996 and 997 GT3 RSs, would the 997 shine more?
The drive train was very impressive anyway. It was chasis feel which dissapointed. That wont change.
Steve
Not that good....
Pugsey said:
Interesting and useful post Steve. This 'feel' thing is very personal isn't it and I'll reserve judgement until I've had my own car on track. However at the moment, from a purely road point of view, I would say that the 997GT3 has bags of feel/feedback/call it what you will, with incredibly intuitive steering and front end bite compared to the 996 variant. Any more feedback would actually be unwelcome IMO - if the car was going to remain purely a road tool.
I think that the GT3 is probably an astounding road car. Far better than the previous incarnations
steve
steve rance said:
kayc said:
steve rance said:
Dr JonboyG said:
Out of interest, how much of the difference could be due to the 997 being almost new, and the 996 (and 964s) being a lot older and having more miles on them?
If you were to compare boxfresh 996 and 997 GT3 RSs, would the 997 shine more?
If you were to compare boxfresh 996 and 997 GT3 RSs, would the 997 shine more?
The drive train was very impressive anyway. It was chasis feel which dissapointed. That wont change.
Steve
Not that good....
steve rance said:
Pugsey said:
Interesting and useful post Steve. This 'feel' thing is very personal isn't it and I'll reserve judgement until I've had my own car on track. However at the moment, from a purely road point of view, I would say that the 997GT3 has bags of feel/feedback/call it what you will, with incredibly intuitive steering and front end bite compared to the 996 variant. Any more feedback would actually be unwelcome IMO - if the car was going to remain purely a road tool.
I think that the GT3 is probably an astounding road car. Far better than the previous incarnations
steve
[quote=steve rance][quote=clubsport]Good assessment Steve, considering the Parr car has had years of their excellent development it makes the performance of the "out of the box" 997 version even more impressive.
Good write up Steve, It seems that the RS heyday is numbered... I had a chat with a pro driver and he said the 996 GT3 RS was still the better car. My friend has driven all the GT3 Cup cars and the new GT3 RS and he thinks the latest road car is at it's best mainly on the road. I am glad I sold my 996 GT3 RS, it was a weapon but you need feedback (which you get more of with the Parr goodies) in a hardcore Porsche and you don't learn correct car control by osmosis either... I think you would like a 964RS Clubsport with K+W Suspension and a 340HP RS Tuning engine with only 1050 KGS..... See you at Oulton Steve.
Good write up Steve, It seems that the RS heyday is numbered... I had a chat with a pro driver and he said the 996 GT3 RS was still the better car. My friend has driven all the GT3 Cup cars and the new GT3 RS and he thinks the latest road car is at it's best mainly on the road. I am glad I sold my 996 GT3 RS, it was a weapon but you need feedback (which you get more of with the Parr goodies) in a hardcore Porsche and you don't learn correct car control by osmosis either... I think you would like a 964RS Clubsport with K+W Suspension and a 340HP RS Tuning engine with only 1050 KGS..... See you at Oulton Steve.
Edited by Renns Reunited on Wednesday 7th February 17:47
Edited by Renns Reunited on Wednesday 7th February 17:48
Edited by Renns Reunited on Wednesday 7th February 17:49
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff