To PCCB or to Not PCCB on 997 GT3
Discussion
Hi all - I have pretty much decided on the spec of GT3 I would like (and it includes the Clubsport package) however I am now wondering whether to go for PCCB. I have heard all the stories about the first generation discs being a nightmare... does anyone have any real life expirence of the current generation of PCCB?
cheers
cheers
I have PCCBs and they are fantastic - smooth, quiet, phenomenally powerful, consistent, and no brake dust or corrosion issues.
However, the main benefit is supposed to be the unsprung weight saving, which should improve ride, steering and handling. And, yes the ride, steering and handling are all superb. But I haven't driven a 997GT3 with steel brakes so I can't compare.
It really needs someone qualified to do meaningful back to back tests to provide an objective comparison.
They are expensive, but, if they live up to their claims and long life expectancy then, IMO, they are worth it - certainly for road use and probably for occasional track use.
However, the main benefit is supposed to be the unsprung weight saving, which should improve ride, steering and handling. And, yes the ride, steering and handling are all superb. But I haven't driven a 997GT3 with steel brakes so I can't compare.
It really needs someone qualified to do meaningful back to back tests to provide an objective comparison.
They are expensive, but, if they live up to their claims and long life expectancy then, IMO, they are worth it - certainly for road use and probably for occasional track use.
i have them on 997RS, and think they have awesome performance..
definatley even stronger than the Alcons i had on my MKII, this is
poss due to the larger 380mm rotor ??
The stopping power is sublime.
As said, the other benefits are supposed to be the ride feel etc, but i'm not
experienced to notice those kind of differences...although maybe i would if i
drove them against steels back to back......
The onl unknown is the longivity, i really think they will last longer than the previous gens, but
whether that's long enough to make them anywhere near economical is the unknown.....
G.
definatley even stronger than the Alcons i had on my MKII, this is
poss due to the larger 380mm rotor ??
The stopping power is sublime.
As said, the other benefits are supposed to be the ride feel etc, but i'm not
experienced to notice those kind of differences...although maybe i would if i
drove them against steels back to back......
The onl unknown is the longivity, i really think they will last longer than the previous gens, but
whether that's long enough to make them anywhere near economical is the unknown.....
G.
gizard said:
Then again if they are now as good as porsche say they are why would i need to change them?!?!?
Just tick the box gizard - it's only your money we're spending for you!
As you know I've back to backed my, non PCCB, car with a PCCB car and frankly the standard brakes are so good I don't think any small gains in braking performance are worth the extra dosh. However the PCCB car was definitely slightly more 'fluid' over the road than mine which you may think is worth something to you. Mind you the standard car is sublime 
so if you don't fit them I doubt you'll loose sleep over it! Either way it's gonna make that Noble seem like an airfix kit Edited by Pugsey on Tuesday 23 January 10:45
gizard said:
Hmm, so far it's looking like my finance baloon is going to be bigger!!! can you put steel replacements on easily and do you need to use different pads?
I don't think anyone makes any replacements yet ???
The caliper is larger for the PCCB's, so i assume that it would need a similar size rotor
as replacement ??
Anyone know any more about this ??
G.
Stopping power? Shirley the stopping power between steel and Carbon C is the same and depent on the tyre and contact patch and the ability of the caliber to lock the wheel.
I would hazard a guess that if you can lock up a wheel in either at any speed (cut in ABS) then you have reach the max stopping power of that wheel - doesnt matter if it has steel or CC.
I can understand heat and fade resisitance may be better with CC but for most driving steel will give the same stopping power.
Unsprung weight yes and longer resistnce to fade/overheat yes but thats it as far as i can see.
Please correct me.
I would hazard a guess that if you can lock up a wheel in either at any speed (cut in ABS) then you have reach the max stopping power of that wheel - doesnt matter if it has steel or CC.
I can understand heat and fade resisitance may be better with CC but for most driving steel will give the same stopping power.
Unsprung weight yes and longer resistnce to fade/overheat yes but thats it as far as i can see.
Please correct me.
superlightr said:
Stopping power? Shirley the stopping power between steel and Carbon C is the same and depent on the tyre and contact patch and the ability of the caliber to lock the wheel.
I would hazard a guess that if you can lock up a wheel in either at any speed (cut in ABS) then you have reach the max stopping power of that wheel - doesnt matter if it has steel or CC.
I can understand heat and fade resisitance may be better with CC but for most driving steel will give the same stopping power.
Unsprung weight yes and longer resistnce to fade/overheat yes but thats it as far as i can see.
Please correct me.
I would hazard a guess that if you can lock up a wheel in either at any speed (cut in ABS) then you have reach the max stopping power of that wheel - doesnt matter if it has steel or CC.
I can understand heat and fade resisitance may be better with CC but for most driving steel will give the same stopping power.
Unsprung weight yes and longer resistnce to fade/overheat yes but thats it as far as i can see.
Please correct me.
I understand what you are saying about the maximum amount of breaking power needed to lock a wheel etc..
With my previous steels on a GT3, after getting very hot, they started to need more and more effort to
reach that point before you felt the ABS would cut in.
With the PCCB's they feel is consistant, and the bite is always reasuringly firm.
Ultimately, as long as the steels can lock the wheels, then that's all you'll need, but the reasurance
of the bite and pedal feel is very confidence inspiring.
My 0.02p
(prob talking complete balls of course
) G.
Edited by Glenn mcmenamin on Tuesday 23 January 10:32
Geneve said:
certainly for road use and probably for occasional track use.
Is that because PCCB's are known to disintegrate when used heavily on track? No trying to open a can of worms here - just trying to work out if PCCB are truly worth the money if the GT3 is supposed to be used on track?
type-r said:
Geneve said:
certainly for road use and probably for occasional track use.
Is that because PCCB's are known to disintegrate when used heavily on track? No trying to open a can of worms here - just trying to work out if PCCB are truly worth the money if the GT3 is supposed to be used on track?
There were issues with the first generation PCCBs, mainly on track, and a search will reveal several unhappy users. However, Porsche deny there was a problem and blame mis-use (but they would say that wouldn't they). Nevertheless the latest generation PCCBs (3?)claim to have improved construction, improved cooling, better protection, revised front to rear bias, and longer service life. We shall see.
I have just bought a 360 CS which has carbon brakes. i am amazed by them, i have lots of confidence in them and although porsche brakes are renowned( i think) for being great i would say to put the PCCBs on now whilst you have the choice.
Again, just my 2p's worth. Oh and i wanted to drop it in to convo i have a new car.
Again, just my 2p's worth. Oh and i wanted to drop it in to convo i have a new car.
_tc said:
I have just bought a 360 CS which has carbon brakes. i am amazed by them, i have lots of confidence in them and although porsche brakes are renowned( i think) for being great i would say to put the PCCBs on now whilst you have the choice.
Again, just my 2p's worth. Oh and i wanted to drop it in to convo i have a new car.
Again, just my 2p's worth. Oh and i wanted to drop it in to convo i have a new car.
Lovely Car mate, love the stripe !!!
isn't that a £3k plus option or something ???
Glenn mcmenamin said:
_tc said:
I have just bought a 360 CS which has carbon brakes. i am amazed by them, i have lots of confidence in them and although porsche brakes are renowned( i think) for being great i would say to put the PCCBs on now whilst you have the choice.
Again, just my 2p's worth. Oh and i wanted to drop it in to convo i have a new car.
Again, just my 2p's worth. Oh and i wanted to drop it in to convo i have a new car.
Lovely Car mate, love the stripe !!!
isn't that a £3k plus option or something ???
Thanks Glenn, yep the stripe is a £3.5k option if from the factory or a £60 option if you know a 3M supplier
I love the car to bits. yours looks fantastic, i have seen it on S9's.
Anyway. i dont want to hijack the thread.
Carbon brakes.......do it!
superlightr said:
Stopping power? Shirley the stopping power between steel and Carbon C is the same and depent on the tyre and contact patch and the ability of the caliber to lock the wheel.
I would hazard a guess that if you can lock up a wheel in either at any speed (cut in ABS) then you have reach the max stopping power of that wheel - doesnt matter if it has steel or CC.
I can understand heat and fade resisitance may be better with CC but for most driving steel will give the same stopping power.
Unsprung weight yes and longer resistnce to fade/overheat yes but thats it as far as i can see.
Please correct me.
I would hazard a guess that if you can lock up a wheel in either at any speed (cut in ABS) then you have reach the max stopping power of that wheel - doesnt matter if it has steel or CC.
I can understand heat and fade resisitance may be better with CC but for most driving steel will give the same stopping power.
Unsprung weight yes and longer resistnce to fade/overheat yes but thats it as far as i can see.
Please correct me.
That sounds very scientific
But I don't think it's correct.
Surely, to stop quickly, and in control, on a normal road surface, the brakes should not lock up, hence the development of ABS. Better still, the frictional forces between the disc and the pad should retard the rotation of the wheel as quickly as possible without even activating the ABS. Ceramic brakes are supposed to be able to do this better than conventionsal materials, and to do so consistantly.
This is equally true with steel brakes. If you compare a Caterham on standard brakes or the bigger AP 4-pot callipers and master cylinder, they transform the car's stopping power and stability without locking up.
Im not saying to lock up. (although that would make no difference between steel and CC)
But simply if the brakes can lock a wheel they have enough power to do so no matter what the disc is made of. The limiting factor I beleive is the tyre not the disc.
Feel is different to stopping power. If a calliper of x size can lock a wheel then its strong enough for the purpose a calliper of x+5 ie bigger etc can do no better than lock a wheel as for the max stopping power it can exert.
From memory, If you have a look at stopping distances you will see that most modern cars stop within the same or very similar distance. I would wager a donut that on the same car and set up there would be no difference between a cc and a steel in stopping distance. ie two GT3's one with and one without.
The more Sticky-er tyres you have the require more force to stop them hence bigger brakes ie the 7.
But simply if the brakes can lock a wheel they have enough power to do so no matter what the disc is made of. The limiting factor I beleive is the tyre not the disc.
Feel is different to stopping power. If a calliper of x size can lock a wheel then its strong enough for the purpose a calliper of x+5 ie bigger etc can do no better than lock a wheel as for the max stopping power it can exert.
From memory, If you have a look at stopping distances you will see that most modern cars stop within the same or very similar distance. I would wager a donut that on the same car and set up there would be no difference between a cc and a steel in stopping distance. ie two GT3's one with and one without.
The more Sticky-er tyres you have the require more force to stop them hence bigger brakes ie the 7.
superlightr said:
Im not saying to lock up. (although that would make no difference between steel and CC)
But simply if the brakes can lock a wheel they have enough power to do so no matter what the disc is made of. The limiting factor I beleive is the tyre not the disc.
Feel is different to stopping power. If a calliper of x size can lock a wheel then its strong enough for the purpose a calliper of x+5 ie bigger etc can do no better than lock a wheel as for the max stopping power it can exert.
From memory, If you have a look at stopping distances you will see that most modern cars stop within the same or very similar distance. I would wager a donut that on the same car and set up there would be no difference between a cc and a steel in stopping distance. ie two GT3's one with and one without.
The more Sticky-er tyres you have the require more force to stop them hence bigger brakes ie the 7.
But simply if the brakes can lock a wheel they have enough power to do so no matter what the disc is made of. The limiting factor I beleive is the tyre not the disc.
Feel is different to stopping power. If a calliper of x size can lock a wheel then its strong enough for the purpose a calliper of x+5 ie bigger etc can do no better than lock a wheel as for the max stopping power it can exert.
From memory, If you have a look at stopping distances you will see that most modern cars stop within the same or very similar distance. I would wager a donut that on the same car and set up there would be no difference between a cc and a steel in stopping distance. ie two GT3's one with and one without.
The more Sticky-er tyres you have the require more force to stop them hence bigger brakes ie the 7.
That is my understanding too, although feel is relevent in terms of being able to modulate them effectively to just stay away from lockup. Ceramics haven't previously been lauded for their feel though.
rjben said:
Don't forget, a lighter disk has lower rotational inertia and as such the car has less energy for the brakes to absorb. I think that every kg of rotational inertia is worth 3 or 4 kg's of non-rotating mass. Who knows if you could feel the difference though - I certainly wouldn't!
If I can anyone can! You might also want to consider how much of that money you would get back when you sell the car on if you go for the ceramic brake option. If you are not too bothered yourself, and a prospective buyer would not pay a premium, then maybe go for steel and do without the risk of any potential problems with them.
James.
James.
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