Are French cars Crap ?
Discussion
...some musings:
1. it seems that whenever i read the results of a big public voted car survey, its always french cars that fill the bottom quarter - in fact they seem to be nearly as low quality as mercedes cars it appears!
2. i read this year that french labour costs in their car industry are the lowest in western-europe, an if so, could this be due to them not having their manpower costs wasted on a quality dept per factory?
3. if renault tried to move the nissan site in sunderland to poland or france, would the EU deem it illegal as its 51% french-gov owned, an so maybe viewed as a governments self-interest to boost its economy at the expense of a fellow union-member nation?
4. an how do the french-gov get away with co-funding renault with all the anti-subsidy palava we hear about in the media?
5. an why did the french overly-owned nissan company move nissans design center to england rather than to france?
6. an when i read 3 years ago that the yanks car industry is more efficient than that of europe, then how come theres been some big sackings there of late?
1. it seems that whenever i read the results of a big public voted car survey, its always french cars that fill the bottom quarter - in fact they seem to be nearly as low quality as mercedes cars it appears!
2. i read this year that french labour costs in their car industry are the lowest in western-europe, an if so, could this be due to them not having their manpower costs wasted on a quality dept per factory?
3. if renault tried to move the nissan site in sunderland to poland or france, would the EU deem it illegal as its 51% french-gov owned, an so maybe viewed as a governments self-interest to boost its economy at the expense of a fellow union-member nation?
4. an how do the french-gov get away with co-funding renault with all the anti-subsidy palava we hear about in the media?
5. an why did the french overly-owned nissan company move nissans design center to england rather than to france?
6. an when i read 3 years ago that the yanks car industry is more efficient than that of europe, then how come theres been some big sackings there of late?
vlc said:
...some musings:
1. it seems that whenever i read the results of a big public voted car survey, its always french cars that fill the bottom quarter - in fact they seem to be nearly as low quality as mercedes cars it appears!
2. i read this year that french labour costs in their car industry are the lowest in western-europe, an if so, could this be due to them not having their manpower costs wasted on a quality dept per factory?
1. it seems that whenever i read the results of a big public voted car survey, its always french cars that fill the bottom quarter - in fact they seem to be nearly as low quality as mercedes cars it appears!
2. i read this year that french labour costs in their car industry are the lowest in western-europe, an if so, could this be due to them not having their manpower costs wasted on a quality dept per factory?
This doesn't sound right to me. French labour laws mean that they are probably the highest costing (not necessarily paid) workers in europe.
vlc said:
3. if renault tried to move the nissan site in sunderland to poland or france, would the EU deem it illegal as its 51% french-gov owned, an so maybe viewed as a governments self-interest to boost its economy at the expense of a fellow union-member nation?
4. an how do the french-gov get away with co-funding renault with all the anti-subsidy palava we hear about in the media?
God knows. Only the English take the EU legislation seriously, everyone else ignores it.
vlc said:
5. an why did the french overly-owned nissan company move nissans design center to england rather than to france?
Cost, I guess. See 2.
vlc said:
6. an when i read 3 years ago that the yanks car industry is more efficient than that of europe, then how come theres been some big sackings there of late?
Efficient? Possibly. In the sense that 'we can make two cars in the same time for the same cost that you take to make one'. Only problem is that the two cars they made are pitifully bad. Hence huuuuge lack of demand. Over here, if you want to protect American jobs, you buy American. And put up with taking it back to the dealer once a month (one guy I know bought a ford truck, and took it back in about 15 times in the first year) If you want a good value reliable car, you buy Japanese. The only exception is trucks and SUV's, which the yanks have down pat. Only problem is still quality/finish - visible seam lines on anything plastic, leather that looks like cardboard, that sort of stuff.
No problems with '90s French cars really (OK, the ZX had an unlikely appetite for front brake pads and handbrake cables, but thats about it and before you start, the handbrake worked on the rear wheels) - wouldn't touch many of the more recent offerings with a bargepole, though. In addition to PSA having lost their way big time in the ride/handling department - whilst I can tolerate random electric faults and bits of trim falling off on an intoxicating hand built sports car, it's a bit much to suffer on a daily hack...
Edited by 900T-R on Friday 27th October 09:08
Are French cars crap? No
Build quality might not be A+, but their design ethos is pretty great:
Renault 5, Twingo, Espace, Vel Satis, Avantime, Megane
Citreon 2CV, DS, GS, SM, CX, BX, AX, C4, C6
Peugeot 205, 607
Their diesels moved the game forward considerably
Their ride quality vs handling balance set the standard
Technologically their seem to be close to cutting edge too...
The question unfortunately should be "are British cars crap?" or maybe Korean....
Build quality might not be A+, but their design ethos is pretty great:
Renault 5, Twingo, Espace, Vel Satis, Avantime, Megane
Citreon 2CV, DS, GS, SM, CX, BX, AX, C4, C6
Peugeot 205, 607
Their diesels moved the game forward considerably
Their ride quality vs handling balance set the standard
Technologically their seem to be close to cutting edge too...
The question unfortunately should be "are British cars crap?" or maybe Korean....
I don't think they really deserve the "rubbish" tag that seems to become attatched to anything French built. I've owned my Clio from new and it is now coming up to 20 months old with only one minor fault which was the reversing light switch on the gearbox.
The French also seem more willing to try something a little different on their cars rather than follow the norm.
The French also seem more willing to try something a little different on their cars rather than follow the norm.
My little french number - xantia diesel turbo - was bought with ~60k on the clock in near immaculate condition for chump change.
It has received virtually NOTHING in the way of maintenance over the last few years other than pads, discs, clutch cable clevis and 4 spheres (which took longer to find the tools for than to actually do). oh, and I treated it to a lightbulb yesterday as it's getting dark early. I've definitely spent no more than £200 on repairs.
It now has 140k odd on the clock, would cost between £75 and £100 to replace with another in the same condition (it's not in bad condition, just no-one likes them) has the most comfortable ride of any car I've been in for distance driving and is not so slow as to be painful.
Is it crap? it is if you want a car for image, but it's got me to work and back for 4ish years, has been abused in every way shape and form possible. At the moment it's sat outside with enough building materials in the back to sink a ship.
If I scrap it tomorrow, it'll have cost less than £300 per year ownership.
It has received virtually NOTHING in the way of maintenance over the last few years other than pads, discs, clutch cable clevis and 4 spheres (which took longer to find the tools for than to actually do). oh, and I treated it to a lightbulb yesterday as it's getting dark early. I've definitely spent no more than £200 on repairs.
It now has 140k odd on the clock, would cost between £75 and £100 to replace with another in the same condition (it's not in bad condition, just no-one likes them) has the most comfortable ride of any car I've been in for distance driving and is not so slow as to be painful.
Is it crap? it is if you want a car for image, but it's got me to work and back for 4ish years, has been abused in every way shape and form possible. At the moment it's sat outside with enough building materials in the back to sink a ship.
If I scrap it tomorrow, it'll have cost less than £300 per year ownership.
My 307 has been pretty much OK (touches wood as it will now go wrong)
70k in 3yrs, all issues sorted under warranty, mainly niggly stuff
Agreed re build quality, its not bad, but could be better in places, and fuel consumption poor when pushing on (which is most of the time
).
Handling & ride, decent for a warm hatch, but THE most uncomfortable seats & the driving postion could be better.
My expereince would not put me off of another French car, however the dealer that I use is a small family pug garage that are known for good service, had to use an alternative pug service once & its was poor.
Compared to the Alfa 147 I had previously its been a joy to own
70k in 3yrs, all issues sorted under warranty, mainly niggly stuff
Agreed re build quality, its not bad, but could be better in places, and fuel consumption poor when pushing on (which is most of the time
). Handling & ride, decent for a warm hatch, but THE most uncomfortable seats & the driving postion could be better.
My expereince would not put me off of another French car, however the dealer that I use is a small family pug garage that are known for good service, had to use an alternative pug service once & its was poor.
Compared to the Alfa 147 I had previously its been a joy to own
Like any car I think some models are more prone to problems than others! Personally I would always try and avoid french cars, and if I had to have one, would always favor Renault over the others. My girlfriends mother had one of those 206 convertibles from new, after just 18 months it had been at the dealers for about 12 weeks in total. New gearbox, been in for a couple of head gaskets (yes a couple). In the end they got it all sorted and traded it in.
Edited by markda on Friday 27th October 09:34
Yes.
1) Great designs, aesthetically - some almost stunning (e.g 607)
2) Great advertising campaigns and spend - Does anyone not know what 'Vaa Vaa Voom' refers to?
BUT THEN - once they've roped you into ownership...
3) IMO - largely awful in terms of relibility and engineering, and fit and overall quality.
4) Crp customer service - they seem to deploy a tactic of dealer blames Head office, Head Office blames dealer - meanwhile your car is off the road all of this time. People continue to buy them because the ad' campaigns are so effective. And yes - millions of people can be wrong.
5) It's Friday (where did Autumn go?) and yes, I am in the mood for sweeping, unsubstantiated generalisations, but I will very objectively point you towards www.crushmy307.co.uk
1) Great designs, aesthetically - some almost stunning (e.g 607)
2) Great advertising campaigns and spend - Does anyone not know what 'Vaa Vaa Voom' refers to?
BUT THEN - once they've roped you into ownership...
3) IMO - largely awful in terms of relibility and engineering, and fit and overall quality.
4) Crp customer service - they seem to deploy a tactic of dealer blames Head office, Head Office blames dealer - meanwhile your car is off the road all of this time. People continue to buy them because the ad' campaigns are so effective. And yes - millions of people can be wrong.
5) It's Friday (where did Autumn go?) and yes, I am in the mood for sweeping, unsubstantiated generalisations, but I will very objectively point you towards www.crushmy307.co.uk
i love french cars,
ive got a saxo vts, a mk1 1998 model, im the second owner, and the odd few problems aside its been great - i think in the four years ive owned it i have spent about 600 quid on it.
not as good as my dad mind you, he has a e reg 205 diesel van. owned from 6 months old. its done over 650,000 miles now!, it has had a few heads, front hubs and what not. but the original exhaust and clutch plate lasted until its first major rebuild (when the cam hardening went) at @550,000 miles.
it looks a bit shabby now, but he loves it!
ive got a saxo vts, a mk1 1998 model, im the second owner, and the odd few problems aside its been great - i think in the four years ive owned it i have spent about 600 quid on it.
not as good as my dad mind you, he has a e reg 205 diesel van. owned from 6 months old. its done over 650,000 miles now!, it has had a few heads, front hubs and what not. but the original exhaust and clutch plate lasted until its first major rebuild (when the cam hardening went) at @550,000 miles.
it looks a bit shabby now, but he loves it!
IMHO the question is rhetorical as in French=crap.
We have a 51 plate Laguna which has broken down twice and been back to the dealers at least a dozen times sorting problems! I am not impressed. Comparing it to the older Mundano which has had three times the mileage and twice the abuse it has only been in for 1 cat replacement (cheap) and the key needed reprogramming when I changed the battery! also it has never stranded me!
Also just had to have new tyres on the Laguna and half the garages refused the job because of the waist of time tyre pressure sensors being to fragile to withstand a tyre change!
The Laguna is soon to be traded for a nice reliable banger of a Mondeo.
We have a 51 plate Laguna which has broken down twice and been back to the dealers at least a dozen times sorting problems! I am not impressed. Comparing it to the older Mundano which has had three times the mileage and twice the abuse it has only been in for 1 cat replacement (cheap) and the key needed reprogramming when I changed the battery! also it has never stranded me!
Also just had to have new tyres on the Laguna and half the garages refused the job because of the waist of time tyre pressure sensors being to fragile to withstand a tyre change!
The Laguna is soon to be traded for a nice reliable banger of a Mondeo.
leorest said:
IMHO the question is rhetorical as in French=crap.
We have a 51 plate Laguna which has broken down twice and been back to the dealers at least a dozen times sorting problems! I am not impressed. Comparing it to the older Mundano which has had three times the mileage and twice the abuse it has only been in for 1 cat replacement (cheap) and the key needed reprogramming when I changed the battery! also it has never stranded me!
Also just had to have new tyres on the Laguna and half the garages refused the job because of the waist of time tyre pressure sensors being to fragile to withstand a tyre change!
The Laguna is soon to be traded for a nice reliable banger of a Mondeo.
We have a 51 plate Laguna which has broken down twice and been back to the dealers at least a dozen times sorting problems! I am not impressed. Comparing it to the older Mundano which has had three times the mileage and twice the abuse it has only been in for 1 cat replacement (cheap) and the key needed reprogramming when I changed the battery! also it has never stranded me!
Also just had to have new tyres on the Laguna and half the garages refused the job because of the waist of time tyre pressure sensors being to fragile to withstand a tyre change!
The Laguna is soon to be traded for a nice reliable banger of a Mondeo.
Well, there's your problem. Never buy a large French car, surely everyone knows they're just for the French politicos who don't need to worry about reliability.
The French seem to be good at building small cars (up to Megane/307 sized) but anything bigger than that is to be avoided. The only large French car I'd consider would be a classic DS.
vlc said:
1. it seems that whenever i read the results of a big public voted car survey, its always french cars that fill the bottom quarter - in fact they seem to be nearly as low quality as mercedes cars it appears!
I must admit that I tend to not necessarily hold too much by these "surveys". Its all about the type of car and buyer. Japanese cars tend to be bought with the buyers money and as a result most people dont want to admit that its crap - the motivation is there to say its pretty good, even though the reliability is very good. While other manufacturers, such as the French and Ford / Vauxhall, come in really badly - considering many of these are company cars the owners tend to be overly critical. Take the Ford Mondeo for example - widely regarded as one of the best all-round mid-sized family cars yet sales are dropping and consistently comes in crap in reliability / customer satisfaction surveys - why? They are actually pretty reliable. The Focus is another one - again rated crap, but the German ADAC (IIRC - the equivalent of the MOT) said it had the lowest number of failures and repairs per car....
I dont believe there is a crap car manufacturer necessarily - some are better than others, but in general they are all pretty good. Maybe our expectations are too high for some models?
vlc said:
2. i read this year that french labour costs in their car industry are the lowest in western-europe, an if so, could this be due to them not having their manpower costs wasted on a quality dept per factory?
Maybe. French manufacturers are widely regarded as efficient but they tend not to be that well screwed together. That doesnt make the bad, but if you look at them today against a model from the late 80's and early 90's you can see they have come a LONG way. Rattly dashboards are rare these days, while anyone who has had a Pug 205 knows that its just character building....
vlc said:
3. if renault tried to move the nissan site in sunderland to poland or france, would the EU deem it illegal as its 51% french-gov owned, an so maybe viewed as a governments self-interest to boost its economy at the expense of a fellow union-member nation?
The UK plants for both Honda and Nissan are widely regarded as the most efficient in the world. One recently won a major award, but cant remember which. It would be suicide for Nissan to move the Sunderland plant overseas - its already as efficient and cost effective as a Polish plant already and a huge amount of supporting industry has been built up to support the factory. Look at the European development and engineering that is carried out in the UK now. Costs are important, but the Sunderland factory is very good and why move it?
vlc said:
4. an how do the french-gov get away with co-funding renault with all the anti-subsidy palava we hear about in the media?
Cos they are the French - ignore rules and regulations when it suits them and prop-up French businesses when possible. Self-interest in the extreme and one country in particular which is holding the EU back. The sooner the Belgians annexe France the better.....
vlc said:
5. an why did the french overly-owned nissan company move nissans design center to england rather than to france?
Because there are a hell of a lot of engineering design and automotive design people already here. This is the halo location for them and London the hub of the urban design scene for Europe. We have pretty much the only widely regarded automotive design degree course in the world (Coventry) and a massive industry based around small bespoke engineering. Why not? You would be surprised to see how many design companies are based here.... and anyway, they want Nissan to look like Nissan not Renault so they need to differentiate.
vlc said:
6. an when i read 3 years ago that the yanks car industry is more efficient than that of europe, then how come theres been some big sackings there of late?
The US industry is struggling under huge amounts of healthcare and labour costs. Additionally they have been narrow minded and gone for the profit rather than long-term stability and development. The SUV market in the US is massive and hugely profitable, but the US manufacturers were complacent and simply took pick-up trucks and converted them to SUVs. Wrong..... While the rest of the world were developing specific models and pushing the engineering along, the US manufacturers just went for the easy money and now that gas is nearly $3 a gallon they are paying the price. I dont think its a fair comparison as they are totally different markets, but thankfully GM and Ford are turning themselves around and are stopping throwing out any-old-crap to their customers. They are actually designing cars and looking to the future a bit more - without the two giants I hate to think what would happen to the Global car industry.
Oh, and the other big one for the US is that they gave the mid-market to the Japanese. The Toyota Camry the most popular mid-sized saloon? Give me a break - its your home market but missed the fact that customers wanted reliable motors. Que Toyota to fill the void with an average product but boy the US companies missed a trick there!
vlc said:
...some musings:
1. it seems that whenever i read the results of a big public voted car survey, its always french cars that fill the bottom quarter - in fact they seem to be nearly as low quality as mercedes cars it appears!
2. i read this year that french labour costs in their car industry are the lowest in western-europe, an if so, could this be due to them not having their manpower costs wasted on a quality dept per factory?
3. if renault tried to move the nissan site in sunderland to poland or france, would the EU deem it illegal as its 51% french-gov owned, an so maybe viewed as a governments self-interest to boost its economy at the expense of a fellow union-member nation?
4. an how do the french-gov get away with co-funding renault with all the anti-subsidy palava we hear about in the media?
5. an why did the french overly-owned nissan company move nissans design center to england rather than to france?
6. an when i read 3 years ago that the yanks car industry is more efficient than that of europe, then how come theres been some big sackings there of late?
1. it seems that whenever i read the results of a big public voted car survey, its always french cars that fill the bottom quarter - in fact they seem to be nearly as low quality as mercedes cars it appears!
2. i read this year that french labour costs in their car industry are the lowest in western-europe, an if so, could this be due to them not having their manpower costs wasted on a quality dept per factory?
3. if renault tried to move the nissan site in sunderland to poland or france, would the EU deem it illegal as its 51% french-gov owned, an so maybe viewed as a governments self-interest to boost its economy at the expense of a fellow union-member nation?
4. an how do the french-gov get away with co-funding renault with all the anti-subsidy palava we hear about in the media?
5. an why did the french overly-owned nissan company move nissans design center to england rather than to france?
6. an when i read 3 years ago that the yanks car industry is more efficient than that of europe, then how come theres been some big sackings there of late?
My Saxo handled like a roller-skate, good turn in, even lift-off oversteer if provoked, nippy, great in London traffic. Chopped it in for a Honda in the end - why? Kept breaking down, regular misfire which dealer couldnt fix. immobiliser dies 200 miles from home on new years day and leaves me stranded, central locking was possessed, battery kept going flat for no obvious reason. Generally a crock of **** and would rather shove wasps up my **** than own another french car. Having said that, my bro loves his Clio and thats been solid. Maybe its just citroens....?
Arif110 said:
name said:
Maybe its just citroens....?
Nope - it's French cars. It's just that occassionally - you might end up with one that works.
I think you'll find it's more a case of occassionally you end up with a crap one, but because it's french people scream from the hill tops about it just to run it down. My citroen isn't my first french car by a long way, and it wont be my last. My father has had many french cars, my uncle is a mechanic for a french company. They'll all admit you will get a shit one now and again, but on the whole I think most people like to run french cars down purely because they think it's cool to.
My Wife's colleague has a company BMW that has had more major surgery on it in the few weeks of ownership than any car I've ever known. Her boss has a Fezza 430 that has literally covered more milage on a tow truck than under its own steam, My Brother has a Audi that is constantly disapearing into the garage for it's latest fault to be repaired. but it wouldn't be cool to diss them would it.
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