Discussion
Friend of mine sells Nobles in the USA. Spent some time with me going through known problems as obviously the litigation in the States is as we all know. He has started to get a clearer picture of how the structure is within the factory and at times is at his wits end as to how the whole thing stays together.
Regardless. I am just interested to know where people's limit of tolerance is with Noble. We can all agree the uniqueness (spell?) of the product and the pride of buying a UK product but I thought that Noble is pitching itself as a road car manufacturer that sells something that could be used day in day out?
We all know of the variety of failures and I just wonder if really people are simply happy to take something else on the chin having shelled out reasonable money. On many failures you see the question being asked "was it done on track or on road.." Come on to be honest in 2006 does it make a difference? You can take 996/7's or BMW M products around race tracks all day and they just take it.
Finally would the company fair better without Lee himself at the helm? Many suppliers can't deal with the guy and its clear neither could the investor. Isn't the canning of the M14 proof of this?
Regardless. I am just interested to know where people's limit of tolerance is with Noble. We can all agree the uniqueness (spell?) of the product and the pride of buying a UK product but I thought that Noble is pitching itself as a road car manufacturer that sells something that could be used day in day out?
We all know of the variety of failures and I just wonder if really people are simply happy to take something else on the chin having shelled out reasonable money. On many failures you see the question being asked "was it done on track or on road.." Come on to be honest in 2006 does it make a difference? You can take 996/7's or BMW M products around race tracks all day and they just take it.
Finally would the company fair better without Lee himself at the helm? Many suppliers can't deal with the guy and its clear neither could the investor. Isn't the canning of the M14 proof of this?
Sorry I was asleep - No I have no idea why Lee is in US.
My friend was discussing the issues because initially the factory just totally refused to accept some problems - which had happened on several occasions.
Perhaps Lee is in the US for investment, sales, etc, etc - however personally I can't think that Noble could ask for a bigger headache selling the current product to a US customer.
Lets face it if you can stand in the dock and complain that your coffee was hot...
My friend was discussing the issues because initially the factory just totally refused to accept some problems - which had happened on several occasions.
Perhaps Lee is in the US for investment, sales, etc, etc - however personally I can't think that Noble could ask for a bigger headache selling the current product to a US customer.
Lets face it if you can stand in the dock and complain that your coffee was hot...
To be fair, I moved to a GT3 RS to avoid constant maintenance on my Noble. So far I've spent 2.5k on alcon brakes as the ceramics will fall apart on the track (but so do the drilled OEM steels), and I've got some alloys that are degrading at 4.5k miles on the clock and Porsche have told me to bugger off. The cars are solid, but Porsche are bastards like everyone else. On the plus side the car will lap all day without missing a beat and these are pretty minor problems in the scheme of things. Oh and I got Porsche hospitality to festival of speed which was pretty cool 
Put it this way though, the class action against Porsche on the ceramic brakes fell apart, and that was in the land of litigation...
Be interesting to see what happens in the Carrera GT lawsuit. It's alledged the car is too much of a handful to sell to the public without vetting and thus Porsche are responsbile for 2 peoples death on a race track!
p.s. Phil, just back from the pub and looking for a fight?
Put it this way though, the class action against Porsche on the ceramic brakes fell apart, and that was in the land of litigation...
Be interesting to see what happens in the Carrera GT lawsuit. It's alledged the car is too much of a handful to sell to the public without vetting and thus Porsche are responsbile for 2 peoples death on a race track!
p.s. Phil, just back from the pub and looking for a fight?
Edited by DanH on Saturday 14th October 00:33
Hey Dan - hey you are right all manufacturers have their own issues - the latest Merc products are a bit flakey. Mate of mine has an SL65 and the diff oil couldn't be changed at the AMG service schedule cos no dealer in the UK had the correct stuff!
However I think you'll agree their is a world of difference between wear on discs, pads, wheel corrosion and motors lunching themselves, driveline failures and so on.
Not looking for a fight but it would be good to have a decent debate on such things rather than living in the moon..
The M400 is a mega quick bit of kit - if that thing was as "sorted" in other ways I can't see anyone the world over would buy anything else..
However I think you'll agree their is a world of difference between wear on discs, pads, wheel corrosion and motors lunching themselves, driveline failures and so on.
Not looking for a fight but it would be good to have a decent debate on such things rather than living in the moon..
The M400 is a mega quick bit of kit - if that thing was as "sorted" in other ways I can't see anyone the world over would buy anything else..
P490KVP said:
Hey Dan - hey you are right all manufacturers have their own issues - the latest Merc products are a bit flakey. Mate of mine has an SL65 and the diff oil couldn't be changed at the AMG service schedule cos no dealer in the UK had the correct stuff!
However I think you'll agree their is a world of difference between wear on discs, pads, wheel corrosion and motors lunching themselves, driveline failures and so on.
Not looking for a fight but it would be good to have a decent debate on such things rather than living in the moon..
The M400 is a mega quick bit of kit - if that thing was as "sorted" in other ways I can't see anyone the world over would buy anything else..
However I think you'll agree their is a world of difference between wear on discs, pads, wheel corrosion and motors lunching themselves, driveline failures and so on.
Not looking for a fight but it would be good to have a decent debate on such things rather than living in the moon..
The M400 is a mega quick bit of kit - if that thing was as "sorted" in other ways I can't see anyone the world over would buy anything else..
Hey Phil,
The m400 is mega quick, but in the end you pay some of what you saved in servicing. Bit of a TVR equation I think? Anything of similar pace from Porsche is nearly 100% more expensive, and lets not dwell on how much the RS and GT2 depreciated initially, although I reckon first years GT2 depreciation would have bought an m400! Frankly all the other super cars in that performace bracket fall apart if you take them on track, so are they really much better than a noble. Put it this way, it takes a brave man to track a 430 or gallardo regularly.
I get where you are coming from, and I've scratched my noble itch enough to probably not return, but I don't really see the point in having a go at the car or the manufacturer as anyone with half a brain will realise you don't get something for nothing and that there are swings and roundabouts getting this kind of performance so cheaply. Its an enthusiasts car and if you just want something to buy and belt around the track all day with little or no maintenance it wouldn't be my choice, but that doesn't make it a shit car. On the plus if you lunch the engine at least its cheap, I can't even get a decent power upgrade on my RS for less than 30k euros and if I buzz the engine that'll be 30k GBP for a new one! I prefer not to dwell on that though...
My main disappointment with noble is their continual use of a forced induction 3.0l ford engine. Wish Lee would consider an LS6 or something with a bit more character. Turbos just don't do it for me and I couldn't give a crap how fast they are. The fact is though, the factory clearly has bugger all money and he's doing a pretty good job given the constraints. This obviously means that buyers will be suffering from a lack of testing, but this is a low volume manufacturer and I suspect the whole m12 product line has probably undergone less testing than Ford would put into the window seal on a new focus design.
[quote=DanH. Its an enthusiasts car and if you just want something to buy and belt around the track all day with little or no maintenance it wouldn't be my choice, but that doesn't make it a shit car....
The fact is though, the factory clearly has bugger all money and he's doing a pretty good job given the constraints. This obviously means that buyers will be suffering from a lack of testing, but this is a low volume manufacturer and I suspect the whole m12 product line has probably undergone less testing than Ford would put into the window seal on a new focus design.[/quote]
Quite - I agree but then again how many truely unique parts are there on any car? Engine, gearboxes, starter motors, alternators, etc, etc - pretty much all come from a bunch of usual suspects.
My motivation for asking the question is that I really can't understand why we in the UK can't seem to build a sportscar that goes well and holds itself together for a couple of winters. More to the point like the thread asks - where is the limit for these people? How shit can it get before the rose tints come off?
You mention track use and my view is that I think a Noble makes a better track car than road car - given the number one road car must is that it is reliable for normal use. Come on Porsche are now at 20K service intervals and then it only costs a couple of hundred quid at that mileage.
The fact is though, the factory clearly has bugger all money and he's doing a pretty good job given the constraints. This obviously means that buyers will be suffering from a lack of testing, but this is a low volume manufacturer and I suspect the whole m12 product line has probably undergone less testing than Ford would put into the window seal on a new focus design.[/quote]
Quite - I agree but then again how many truely unique parts are there on any car? Engine, gearboxes, starter motors, alternators, etc, etc - pretty much all come from a bunch of usual suspects.
My motivation for asking the question is that I really can't understand why we in the UK can't seem to build a sportscar that goes well and holds itself together for a couple of winters. More to the point like the thread asks - where is the limit for these people? How shit can it get before the rose tints come off?
You mention track use and my view is that I think a Noble makes a better track car than road car - given the number one road car must is that it is reliable for normal use. Come on Porsche are now at 20K service intervals and then it only costs a couple of hundred quid at that mileage.
hi Phil
i looked on your profile and you do not say what car you drive
i can see what you mean about reliability from the posts on here but all cars break at some point
its just 9 times out 10 we remember when they go well and not the minor problems
Porche /bmw are the same ok until something goes wrong then bang £80 an hour plus parts
and you still have a big bill
i have a friend whos 911 4s was brand new which had a vibration that porche could find so they
gave him another one he was thengoing to France for the weekend just got fifteen miles into the country
when the engine went bang
bullet proof i dont think so
Sorry for spelling not my strong point
Simon
i looked on your profile and you do not say what car you drive
i can see what you mean about reliability from the posts on here but all cars break at some point
its just 9 times out 10 we remember when they go well and not the minor problems
Porche /bmw are the same ok until something goes wrong then bang £80 an hour plus parts
and you still have a big bill
i have a friend whos 911 4s was brand new which had a vibration that porche could find so they
gave him another one he was thengoing to France for the weekend just got fifteen miles into the country
when the engine went bang
bullet proof i dont think so
Sorry for spelling not my strong point
Simon
P490KVP said:
You can take 996/7's or BMW M products around race tracks all day and they just take it.
... reality check required! Now where can I get that unbreakable racecar ... Dan has sensibly reasoned that the time/cost/enjoyment equation is a personal thing - that's why he's happy driving the RS rather than a Noble.
---
Richard
Phil,
I think you are pointing out that there are compromises. To get the car you do, for the money you do, in the volumes sold you do with Nobles you aren't going to get a 5 year, billion dollar development programme thrown at it.
However, I do believe Lee has proved his product isn't in the normal low volume range when it comes to reliability. My original 2.5 had quite a few problems, but the latest M400 has done 20+ track days, 14,000 miles and is 20 months old and mechanical wise the list is a new throttle body to cure an idle problem, a new O-ring in the air-con to fix a coolant leak and regular servicing. Total servicing costs are about £5k, or about 35p per mile, pretty decent.
When I compare notes with the issues on my X5 (3 recalls, an un-fixable rattle, missing parts at build, smoke pouring out of the bonnet....), and friends Ferrari's, Porkas and Lambos I think Noble are pretty much in the zone.
Sure I'm biased as I love the whole driving experience, but I'm no fool with my money and wouldn't persevere if it didn't make financial sense compared to the reward I'm getting.
Comparing early 2.5l with the later 3.0l cars is like comparing 993s with 996s to my mind.
J
I think you are pointing out that there are compromises. To get the car you do, for the money you do, in the volumes sold you do with Nobles you aren't going to get a 5 year, billion dollar development programme thrown at it.
However, I do believe Lee has proved his product isn't in the normal low volume range when it comes to reliability. My original 2.5 had quite a few problems, but the latest M400 has done 20+ track days, 14,000 miles and is 20 months old and mechanical wise the list is a new throttle body to cure an idle problem, a new O-ring in the air-con to fix a coolant leak and regular servicing. Total servicing costs are about £5k, or about 35p per mile, pretty decent.
When I compare notes with the issues on my X5 (3 recalls, an un-fixable rattle, missing parts at build, smoke pouring out of the bonnet....), and friends Ferrari's, Porkas and Lambos I think Noble are pretty much in the zone.
Sure I'm biased as I love the whole driving experience, but I'm no fool with my money and wouldn't persevere if it didn't make financial sense compared to the reward I'm getting.
Comparing early 2.5l with the later 3.0l cars is like comparing 993s with 996s to my mind.
J
Edited by joust on Saturday 14th October 11:27
this does make me laugh a bit
there seems to be a consensus that a Noble is unreliable and it will break down
there are a few issues that are known about - but even big manufacutrers get it wrong too
the things that we know about are
1 don't buy a 5 speed unless the diff has been changed to an ATB
2 fit a track day sump
3 make sure the throttle cable has been rerouted (i would be suprised if there are many that havn't been done by now - the service centres have all benn asked to change them over)
4 change the wiring to the fuel pump - especially if you go for more power
5 expect the ex maniflds to crack at some stage and get them welded up
not really big issues in my opinion - and some are things that may not go wrong for many many thousnds of miles
if you buy a noble with a lot of miles on it - then you should expect a few things to go wrong - but its more likely the points above will already have been taken care of
so is the Noble unreliable - I think not
Noble is a small company and will never have the financial security of sombody like BMW for example - but remember that all oak trees grow from small acorns
if the company went bust i for one would not care in the slightest - there are plenty of enthusiasts who own these cars and they will always find a way to get spare parts - the prices of them will go up also !
there seems to be a consensus that a Noble is unreliable and it will break down
there are a few issues that are known about - but even big manufacutrers get it wrong too
the things that we know about are
1 don't buy a 5 speed unless the diff has been changed to an ATB
2 fit a track day sump
3 make sure the throttle cable has been rerouted (i would be suprised if there are many that havn't been done by now - the service centres have all benn asked to change them over)
4 change the wiring to the fuel pump - especially if you go for more power
5 expect the ex maniflds to crack at some stage and get them welded up
not really big issues in my opinion - and some are things that may not go wrong for many many thousnds of miles
if you buy a noble with a lot of miles on it - then you should expect a few things to go wrong - but its more likely the points above will already have been taken care of
so is the Noble unreliable - I think not
Noble is a small company and will never have the financial security of sombody like BMW for example - but remember that all oak trees grow from small acorns
if the company went bust i for one would not care in the slightest - there are plenty of enthusiasts who own these cars and they will always find a way to get spare parts - the prices of them will go up also !
Edited by gadgeroonie on Saturday 14th October 15:10
I brought an early 2.5 and the issues I had were as Gadge said, the diff. I did however need a headgasket replaced as it looked like the previous owner (not a Piston header) let the car overheat and plans found it during the service.
Gadge, just a quick question. On Friday I did a driver training day and the car was fine until half way through the day the fan wouldn't come on (it tried a few times but stopped) the car got well hot so I stopped. At the end of the day we had 15mins track time and the car was fine. Since then the fan sometimes works and somtimes it doesn't- would this be the fan switch of thermostat?
Bondy
Gadge, just a quick question. On Friday I did a driver training day and the car was fine until half way through the day the fan wouldn't come on (it tried a few times but stopped) the car got well hot so I stopped. At the end of the day we had 15mins track time and the car was fine. Since then the fan sometimes works and somtimes it doesn't- would this be the fan switch of thermostat?
Bondy
HI Bondy
it sounds like an intermittant fault to me - and would either be the wiring to the fans, the relay for the fans or the fan switch
i'm not sure if the 2.5's use a fan switch or if it is controlled by the ECU
most oem fords use a fan switch - which normally screws into the themostat housing - pull the connector off and bridge the connector with some thick gauge wiring - the fan should come on. If it doesn't - then its a good bet the fan switch is ok and its something else.
if you can't get it sorted drop me a line and i will find out some more info for you.
G.
it sounds like an intermittant fault to me - and would either be the wiring to the fans, the relay for the fans or the fan switch
i'm not sure if the 2.5's use a fan switch or if it is controlled by the ECU
most oem fords use a fan switch - which normally screws into the themostat housing - pull the connector off and bridge the connector with some thick gauge wiring - the fan should come on. If it doesn't - then its a good bet the fan switch is ok and its something else.
if you can't get it sorted drop me a line and i will find out some more info for you.
G.
I've reached "the limit" with mine twice.
Then I've gone off to look at other metal driven it and then been unable to sell the Noble (sorry Gadget - though you've got a better car by "waiting".
By the way it's half the cost of my old Cerbera to run and has cost almost exactly the same as my "unbreakable" M5 did to run.
Then I've gone off to look at other metal driven it and then been unable to sell the Noble (sorry Gadget - though you've got a better car by "waiting"
. By the way it's half the cost of my old Cerbera to run and has cost almost exactly the same as my "unbreakable" M5 did to run.
nickytwohats said:
By the way it's half the cost of my old Cerbera to run and has cost almost exactly the same as my "unbreakable" M5 did to run.
I just totted up the costs of running the X5 in servicing / fixes over the same period as I've had the M400. Interestingly, even though he has the extended warranty, he has to pay £100 each time there is a problem, and that means that, exhaust upgrade excluded on the M400, we've paid more to keep the X5 running than the M400....
Makes you think.
J
Not really sure how everyone uses their daily driver in terms of mileage/usage but 14K in 20 months without insulting peoples maths is around 8.5K p.a. Which isn't massive and something that quite a few people will manage on a sportsbike over the summer.
Someone asked what I drove and the answer is anything and everything - this year I've been in a Cooper S and a Z4 and throughout '05 I'd been using an old 1996 Peugeot 406 and an ever older 1988 BMW 318!
Nothing so exotic however tyres, oil and brake pads aside none of the above cars needed anything spending on them - Between the 55 reg Cooper and Z4 (Cooper was run from Jan til end Jul) I've done around 50K miles in '06. The Cooper had done 5 track days in that time and two trips to the 'Ring and like I said it needed for nothing. Maybe I'm lucky?
The Z4 gets thrashed daily and at no point do you think that the diff is going to give up - maybe thats a Quaife issue rather than a Noble one but given Noble spec'd it...
I guess you pay your money and take your chance with whatever and it wouldn't do for us to all want the same thing - but I can't believe the level that people can accept what is ultimately poor attention to detail.
For instance it is well known that the car doesn't vent the air that it takes into the cabin. So at speed the cabin pressurises to a point then it must go somewhere - which of course it does, past the door seals which creates a low frequency (and painful to the ear) thrumming.
The list could go one and it isn't that Noble don't know about these things or haven't got a development budget, etc, etc - their are pages and pages of feedback from journo's and automotive suppliers. Much after test cars have gone back to the factory on the back of a recovery truck.
Still be interested to hear the view on Noble himself being a help or hinderance...
Someone asked what I drove and the answer is anything and everything - this year I've been in a Cooper S and a Z4 and throughout '05 I'd been using an old 1996 Peugeot 406 and an ever older 1988 BMW 318!
Nothing so exotic however tyres, oil and brake pads aside none of the above cars needed anything spending on them - Between the 55 reg Cooper and Z4 (Cooper was run from Jan til end Jul) I've done around 50K miles in '06. The Cooper had done 5 track days in that time and two trips to the 'Ring and like I said it needed for nothing. Maybe I'm lucky?
The Z4 gets thrashed daily and at no point do you think that the diff is going to give up - maybe thats a Quaife issue rather than a Noble one but given Noble spec'd it...
I guess you pay your money and take your chance with whatever and it wouldn't do for us to all want the same thing - but I can't believe the level that people can accept what is ultimately poor attention to detail.
For instance it is well known that the car doesn't vent the air that it takes into the cabin. So at speed the cabin pressurises to a point then it must go somewhere - which of course it does, past the door seals which creates a low frequency (and painful to the ear) thrumming.
The list could go one and it isn't that Noble don't know about these things or haven't got a development budget, etc, etc - their are pages and pages of feedback from journo's and automotive suppliers. Much after test cars have gone back to the factory on the back of a recovery truck.
Still be interested to hear the view on Noble himself being a help or hinderance...
P490KVP said:
For instance it is well known that the car doesn't vent the air that it takes into the cabin. So at speed the cabin pressurises to a point then it must go somewhere - which of course it does, past the door seals which creates a low frequency (and painful to the ear) thrumming.
Well known to who? Never had an issue in mine and don't know anyone who has
P490KVP said:
The list could go one and it isn't that Noble don't know about these things or haven't got a development budget, etc, etc - their are pages and pages of feedback from journo's and automotive suppliers. Much after test cars have gone back to the factory on the back of a recovery truck.
Thera are half a dozen issues that may cause problems subject to use. Mine has done 32k with the original diff and not a problem ( hope I'm not tempting fate ).
Would you like to point me in the direction of these pages of feedback? All I have ever seen is unqualified praise for the car.
worty
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