Mk1 Mini Cooper s bodyshell
Discussion
I'd view any shell at best as a MK1. There are so many bodgers and scammers out there, for the price of an S, you can pretty much have a 140hp 8 port screaming Mk1.
I KNOW so many people in the Mk1>>>>>Cooper S scam trade, I wouldn't actually buy one unless ALL the numbers matched and the shell was original. Otherwise, it's just a reshell.
I KNOW so many people in the Mk1>>>>>Cooper S scam trade, I wouldn't actually buy one unless ALL the numbers matched and the shell was original. Otherwise, it's just a reshell.
What's wrong with a re-shell? The bodyshell is just another part number and any part can and will be changed to keep the vehicle on the road. My Historic Rally Cooper 'S' had a replacement shell 12 years ago as the old one was too far gone to rebuild. It has full FIA historic papers, an 'S' Heritage Certificate and an RAC rally log book. Is it not a Cooper 'S' then?
In the 60's, a crashed cooper 'S' would have to have a new shell, so does it cease to be a Cooper 'S' then. Most Cooper 'S's have been re-shelled as a matter of course anyway.
The 'S' body is identical with the 850, just some additional boot brackets and a different hole position in the floor.
We had a 1967 Cooper 998 which was re-shelled with the genuine original body from a 1275 Cooper 'S', all Mk.1, so what does that make the re-shelled Cooper 998. Incidentally, that Cooper 998 was subsequently fitted with a genuine 970 'S' engine and rallied as a 970 'S'. It is still being rallied on international historic rallies.
If the mechanical specification, V5 and other paperwork say it's a Cooper 'S', then that's what it is. In the 60's you could buy all the bits to build a Cooper 'S' in your own workshop, as many did, and then register it. What would that be now? Answer, a Cooper 'S'.
In the 60's, a crashed cooper 'S' would have to have a new shell, so does it cease to be a Cooper 'S' then. Most Cooper 'S's have been re-shelled as a matter of course anyway.
The 'S' body is identical with the 850, just some additional boot brackets and a different hole position in the floor.
We had a 1967 Cooper 998 which was re-shelled with the genuine original body from a 1275 Cooper 'S', all Mk.1, so what does that make the re-shelled Cooper 998. Incidentally, that Cooper 998 was subsequently fitted with a genuine 970 'S' engine and rallied as a 970 'S'. It is still being rallied on international historic rallies.
If the mechanical specification, V5 and other paperwork say it's a Cooper 'S', then that's what it is. In the 60's you could buy all the bits to build a Cooper 'S' in your own workshop, as many did, and then register it. What would that be now? Answer, a Cooper 'S'.
Edited by cooperman on Tuesday 19th September 17:09
Hi Rich,
I think a re-shell is still a Cooper 'S' if the vehicle has continuous history as an 'S' and there is no intention to deceive anyone. I'm sure my car is an 'S' as that's what all the documentation says. In principle I see no difference in changing the nshell as to changing front and rear sub-frames and the engine. If it meets the spec for a Cooper 'S' and the log book/documentation says it's an 'S', then that's what it is.
On the TV business, Gary from Potters Bar came over very well and we all enjoyed it. Made enough for most of my Grandson's parts as well, so that project is now well on the way.
I think a re-shell is still a Cooper 'S' if the vehicle has continuous history as an 'S' and there is no intention to deceive anyone. I'm sure my car is an 'S' as that's what all the documentation says. In principle I see no difference in changing the nshell as to changing front and rear sub-frames and the engine. If it meets the spec for a Cooper 'S' and the log book/documentation says it's an 'S', then that's what it is.
On the TV business, Gary from Potters Bar came over very well and we all enjoyed it. Made enough for most of my Grandson's parts as well, so that project is now well on the way.
There are some subtle differences in the shells. It's getting a bit like 977 ARX, an ex-works 998 cooper, running 1071 S engine and running gear and on its 3rd shell. Grandad's axe.
My blue one is one of these such cars and it's a bits an bobs car. Bits of Cooper, S, ST, Aftermarket this and that, a right old slutbag of a car. Most of the bits it left the factory as are binned or stored.
I could sell it as a spangly one if I was dishonest.
It's a joke.
My blue one is one of these such cars and it's a bits an bobs car. Bits of Cooper, S, ST, Aftermarket this and that, a right old slutbag of a car. Most of the bits it left the factory as are binned or stored.
I could sell it as a spangly one if I was dishonest.
It's a joke.
Edited by love machine on Wednesday 20th September 12:16
love
the problem with is that the differances between a non s ans a s shell can all be retro fitted in a afternoon - cost less than a 100 quid!
if its done right i dont see a problem with it, its when you get wan&ers telling you that there 100% correct 15 grand 1965 1275 s is correct, yet its got a 1962 shell.......
i just dont worry about it, neither of my minis have ever been 's's, they never will.
they are what they are - i built 'em to enjoy, not to polish!
the problem with is that the differances between a non s ans a s shell can all be retro fitted in a afternoon - cost less than a 100 quid!
if its done right i dont see a problem with it, its when you get wan&ers telling you that there 100% correct 15 grand 1965 1275 s is correct, yet its got a 1962 shell.......
i just dont worry about it, neither of my minis have ever been 's's, they never will.
they are what they are - i built 'em to enjoy, not to polish!
guru_1071 said:
love
the problem with is that the differances between a non s ans a s shell can all be retro fitted in a afternoon - cost less than a 100 quid!
if its done right i dont see a problem with it, its when you get wan&ers telling you that there 100% correct 15 grand 1965 1275 s is correct, yet its got a 1962 shell.......
i just dont worry about it, neither of my minis have ever been 's's, they never will.
they are what they are - i built 'em to enjoy, not to polish!
the problem with is that the differances between a non s ans a s shell can all be retro fitted in a afternoon - cost less than a 100 quid!
if its done right i dont see a problem with it, its when you get wan&ers telling you that there 100% correct 15 grand 1965 1275 s is correct, yet its got a 1962 shell.......
i just dont worry about it, neither of my minis have ever been 's's, they never will.
they are what they are - i built 'em to enjoy, not to polish!
Quite right too.
I had an issue at the MCR many years ago, as a result of which I left the club. I was told by some 'prat' that my International Rally 1071 'S' which had just won its class and got 8th overall on the Belgian Int. Historic Rally was not a Cooper 'S' as it had been re-shelled and had new sub-frames. I asked him what it was, then, as it didn't look like a Lotus-Cortina.
He could not really understand my logic. I sort-of put it this way. In the late 60's a friend had a 1966 Cooper 'S' which we rallied. He rolled it and the shell was really beyond repair and as it was done in competition it was not fully comp insured. So I found a 1965 '850' with minor rear end damage and we got the shell from that, modified and repaired it to full 'S'spec, and re-shelled the 'S' fitting a new rear sub-frame at the same time (the old one was distorted by the roll), which was then rallied for several more years as an 'S'. It was only a year old when crashed and it was properly re-shelled from a shell of similar age. Was it not then an 'S'? No-one ever questioned that and the car could well still exist somewhere, as an 'S'. However, if I now do the same with my 'S' it's deemed by some 'purists' no longer to be an 'S', even though all I've done is to repair it as it would have been in the 60's. The strange thing is that the 'works' cars were virtually all re-shelled and carried various identities and this is the 'heritage' claimed for the Mini Cooper 'S'.
To me a Cooper 'S' is a car which has a V5 saying it's an 'S' and which meets the full specification and configuration of the original, with any homologated extras or mods as the homologation papers allow.
pete
dont get me started on the wan$ers at the cooper register....
its funny how many of the commitee have managed to aquire 'genuine', and as a result very valuable ex works rally cars and what not, yet in the early browning book, the chassis numbers of many of these cars clearly states 'written off, scrapped etc'. strange how the newer copies of this book dont include this info!!!!!
i even know of a guy who bought a works car 'ex-works' in 1968 - yet a cooper reg commitee member managed to get the v5 back from the dvla and 'find' the genuine car - fully restored of course....
funny that the orginal owner still has the car sat in his garage..............
a works car has all its components removed (from new), modded etc yet is still a genuine s when its put back together.....
yet, a s built into another shell by a private individaul is not a s?
i dont have a problem with re-shells, want really gets my goat is the buying and selling of logbooks with the sole purpose of either increasing the value of ones car or tax evasion, i really dont thing it will be long before there is a huge crack down on this.
of course you missed a trick with your 'prat', anybody who questions the parentage of my car (which im always 100% honest about, its a 850 delux logbook) gets my standard response, 'well, lets go and have a look at your car then' sudenly they tend to shut up and usually mumble that its in a thousand bits in the garage, or they dont actually own a decent car! works every time!
dont get me started on the wan$ers at the cooper register....
its funny how many of the commitee have managed to aquire 'genuine', and as a result very valuable ex works rally cars and what not, yet in the early browning book, the chassis numbers of many of these cars clearly states 'written off, scrapped etc'. strange how the newer copies of this book dont include this info!!!!!
i even know of a guy who bought a works car 'ex-works' in 1968 - yet a cooper reg commitee member managed to get the v5 back from the dvla and 'find' the genuine car - fully restored of course....
funny that the orginal owner still has the car sat in his garage..............
a works car has all its components removed (from new), modded etc yet is still a genuine s when its put back together.....
yet, a s built into another shell by a private individaul is not a s?
i dont have a problem with re-shells, want really gets my goat is the buying and selling of logbooks with the sole purpose of either increasing the value of ones car or tax evasion, i really dont thing it will be long before there is a huge crack down on this.
of course you missed a trick with your 'prat', anybody who questions the parentage of my car (which im always 100% honest about, its a 850 delux logbook) gets my standard response, 'well, lets go and have a look at your car then' sudenly they tend to shut up and usually mumble that its in a thousand bits in the garage, or they dont actually own a decent car! works every time!
I got in a bit of a rage with a guy who (cut a story short) bought a big load of mini stuff and paperwork, including a load of V5's as well as GRX 5D's !!!! He was ebaying off the ones he couldn't turn into Mk1 S's (which he did a few times), you may remember the 970 S on ebay, a green one with 4 big 700 spots. That was a Mk2 mini before he got his hands on it. Anyway, I got the rage and spoke to DVLC and despite the 2 year jail term or £5K fine (max) they flatly refuse to do anything about it. Even selling the bit of paper is illegal as it is DVLA property.
They are doing nothing which is why I refuse to buy anything advertised as a cooper s, as it probably isn't. Unless it's got a known history. I wouldn't want to waste £10K on something I could get for £2K
They are doing nothing which is why I refuse to buy anything advertised as a cooper s, as it probably isn't. Unless it's got a known history. I wouldn't want to waste £10K on something I could get for £2K
ive often thought that the refusal of the dvla to do anything about it points to the fact that they know that it goes on and that much of this log book reclaiming is going on with some serious insider help - it makes you wonder what sort of a can of worms would be opened up inside the dlva if they started to look into it......
ive heard a few stories about people boasting about 'their' contact within the dvla, and apparently this lark is common in the world of mk 1 escorts as well!
im really surprised that any logbook thats applied for thats been 'dead' for, say 15 years isnt subject to a full inspection of the car before its issued - the dvla do it on older car as my dad has had a few of his old beasts inspected - usually due to the fact that they where exported to the states in the 50's or have been off the road for many years. the dvla are very good at this and know exactly where to look for chassis numbers, engine numbers and what not - mind you these cars tend not to have any form of v5.
note
the above 'rant' concerns the devious buying and selling of logbooks, not the 'reshelling/rebuilding' of cars for which the logbook is already owned.......
ive heard a few stories about people boasting about 'their' contact within the dvla, and apparently this lark is common in the world of mk 1 escorts as well!
im really surprised that any logbook thats applied for thats been 'dead' for, say 15 years isnt subject to a full inspection of the car before its issued - the dvla do it on older car as my dad has had a few of his old beasts inspected - usually due to the fact that they where exported to the states in the 50's or have been off the road for many years. the dvla are very good at this and know exactly where to look for chassis numbers, engine numbers and what not - mind you these cars tend not to have any form of v5.
note
the above 'rant' concerns the devious buying and selling of logbooks, not the 'reshelling/rebuilding' of cars for which the logbook is already owned.......
My rally car (see photos elsewhere on this forum)is a 1964 'S'. It has been re-shelled with a completely re-built 1965 shell from an 850 Automatic, the shell resto costing me £5000 in 1992! The rear sub-frame was new, and may need changing again soon. It is dry suspension - changed from hydro - and is fully rally prepared. I have 2 genuine 'S' engines and loads of spare 'S' parts to keep it going. In addition to a proper V5 listing it as a Cooper 'S', it has a Heritage certificate, an MSA Rally log book and a Historic Vehicle Identity Book. I've just re-built one of the engines to give about 115 bhp, the other one will now need re-building when I get the time.
If anyone wants to tell me it's not a 'reall' Cooper 'S', then that's their priviledge, but have their cars done 31 rallies and won 5 of them outright, being placed never outside the top 10 on every one it has finished. There have been articles about the car in both of the Mini Magazines and all consider it a genuine 'S'. It was valued by a real Mini rally car expert (Chris Spennewyn) as worth between £15k and £20k with all its parts and spares. It also won a concours award on a proper rally recently, despite having been driven flat out for 15 hours just prior to that.
So, is it a Cooper 'S'? You decide - I don't really care so long as the scrutineers don't object. I tell you this, though, it is more genuine than the so-called ex-works rally cars which change hands for up to c.£75k. One so-called ex-works car I know of is a complete 'ringer', as was alluded to earlier by Rich.
If anyone wants to tell me it's not a 'reall' Cooper 'S', then that's their priviledge, but have their cars done 31 rallies and won 5 of them outright, being placed never outside the top 10 on every one it has finished. There have been articles about the car in both of the Mini Magazines and all consider it a genuine 'S'. It was valued by a real Mini rally car expert (Chris Spennewyn) as worth between £15k and £20k with all its parts and spares. It also won a concours award on a proper rally recently, despite having been driven flat out for 15 hours just prior to that.
So, is it a Cooper 'S'? You decide - I don't really care so long as the scrutineers don't object. I tell you this, though, it is more genuine than the so-called ex-works rally cars which change hands for up to c.£75k. One so-called ex-works car I know of is a complete 'ringer', as was alluded to earlier by Rich.
My cooper re-shell cost me £1500 fully restored about 5 years ago. It's a mini minor if you want to split hairs. After a few grand it's faster than most. I bought a Mk1 mini which is what it is, what I bought it as. It has all sorts of bits which make it special, could be a £10K car on ebay but...... I've face it, I know a 1071s in a shed near me, totally rusted, if I resurrected the bits into my shell, would that be the car which left the factory? No. It may have the right bits but it's not the right car.
If you own a dog, own a dog, own up, mine is a bits and pieces car, as much as most of them. The chassis plate was rivited to different shell to start with, it has a different engine, just like most of them, most of the suspension has been changed, the interior is not there. It's a mini and it goes faster than most of them but isn't masquerading as something different. Mini's are about going around corners fast. A Cooper S is a different car which is worth a lot more money, something which left the factory as an auto mini or a mk2, etc, is a different ball game.
You can kid yourself or a potential buyer but at the end of the day, what do you own? I'd wouldn't attempt to join the Cooper Register as mine is a slut just like most of them, however I know mine is a slut and that's what it is. It's an old car, goes like shit and is great fun which is the point, not trying to prove it's something which it isn't.
S
If you own a dog, own a dog, own up, mine is a bits and pieces car, as much as most of them. The chassis plate was rivited to different shell to start with, it has a different engine, just like most of them, most of the suspension has been changed, the interior is not there. It's a mini and it goes faster than most of them but isn't masquerading as something different. Mini's are about going around corners fast. A Cooper S is a different car which is worth a lot more money, something which left the factory as an auto mini or a mk2, etc, is a different ball game.
You can kid yourself or a potential buyer but at the end of the day, what do you own? I'd wouldn't attempt to join the Cooper Register as mine is a slut just like most of them, however I know mine is a slut and that's what it is. It's an old car, goes like shit and is great fun which is the point, not trying to prove it's something which it isn't.
S
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