A question of economics

[dnwilliams]

Newby to the forum so hi guys, but being lurking around for a few months, the time has come to ask for some advice.

I have a Jaguar XJR and use it as my daily drive doing about 20,000 miles a year which is lots of fuel, a set of tyres every 12 months, big insurance and fairly high and extremely complicated servicing, the Jag is due for a swap next year I've become addicted to the performance so I'm torn between changing it for another XJR or running a sports car for weekends, holidays and the occaisional trip to work and getting a euro box for my day to day drive, I have narrowed my sports car choice down to two, a Ferrari 348 or an Ultima GTR. So your advice please on the issues and running costs involved in buying an Ultima as a useable weekend car, unfortunately I don't have the time or space to build one and I'm not interested in track days, I saw one in the flesh at Stonleigh this year and was blown away with the styling and the exclusivity of an Ultima.
Any help and advice much appreciated.

[steve_d]

Don't go expecting an unbiased opinion no here.

The Ferrari is going to be as expensive in fuel, servicing and tyres as the Jag but will not see so many miles. The Ultima will probably only win over the Ferrari on the servicing but you may find insurance cheaper than you think.

Of course the Ult wins on looks as long as you don't get a black one.

Steve

[lvjost]

best solution is: Buy 2 cars. 1 Smart Diesel (that´s the reasonable economic car), 3 Litres on 100km, hardly taxed, and very cheap in insurance and maintaining... The other car has to be a GTR. Forget about a Ferrari! Compared to the Ultima a Ferrari is bulk good, limousine-like and quite expensive. Might be, that the acquisition costs are higher with an brand-new Ultima compared to a used 10 Year old Ferrari, but 1 inspection-service at you local ferrari dealer will show you what it means to maintain an Italo..Maintaining an Ultima means buying new rear-tires every 10 000km, and maybe a bit oil and hell lot of fuel In terms of insurance I can´t help you, as I live in Germany, where these things are quite different...

[tuxman]

hi dnwilliams, thats what we do i have a mondeo st tdci for my main everyday car and a ultima can-am for when i want too have some fun , mondeo is dead cheep too run and is actualy a very good car having had big Audi's for 15 years it was a big decision to change but owning the can-am is a great experience something i would have not wanted to miss . simon

[gtr-gaz]

Definitly go for an Ultima.
They are so cheap to service. The only costly thing will be tyres, but as these cars are so light, you will be surprised at how long they last. The AP brakes seem to last forever.
I suggest you get a catalogue from Real Steel to see just how cheap Chevy parts are, but don't tell anyone though

A Ferrari on the other hand...I would hate the service bill for one and if the engine blew. Jeez!! What's more, if it's not maintained by a specialist dealer, the value of the car will be seriously affected.


I would not have missed the experience of owning an Ultima for the world. It's been a real privilege to meet so many great people

[GTWayne]

name said:

Of course the Ult wins on looks as long as you don't get a black one.[quote]

Steve

Steve, I have only ever had good things to say about you, now lets not start something that you can't finish eh?



As has been said already, you can't really ask people like us in a place like this what we think and expect to get an unbiased opinion. I bet if you go onto the Fez forum and ask the same question you will get the same kind of retort, only thing is, they will all be wrong! My daily driver is a Fiat Panda of 1994 vintage and returns 40mpg+. When driving it, it has been said that I strongly resemble an over sized retard (I must say I was surprised to hear this only because I was not aware that there was a standard size?) in a Baked Bean tin, but 'am I bothered'.........no, I love it and most of all it gives folks a laugh. Now, I am not suggesting that you go and get something this extreme but the theory behind it is a sound one. If you have a hairy chest, you need an Ultima and if you want a hairy chest then you need to get an Ultima, either way, you can not loose.

Edited by GTWayne on Friday 1st September 19:41

[dnwilliams]

Great replies guys thanks a lot, I wasn't expecting an unbiased opinion, you all have Ultimas I was keen to hear the servicing costs, any reliability issues, if there's one sure way to look a muppet it's being towed in by the RAC man, and just the arguments for having one, I would imagine limiting the mileage there won't be too much difference between a Ferrari and an Ultima on insurance, the parts and servicing costs for Ferrari's are very scary, the Jag's bad enough but Ferrari's are waking up in a cold sweat scary, if I decide to go down the route of running two cars it looks like an Ultima for the adrenalin then and I'd already kind of decided on a diesel Mondeo as the day to day, a friend of mine has one and I'm very impressed.

I'll research into the Ultima side a bit longer and lurk in the forum gleaming what info I can.
Oh one more question why not black?

[GTWayne]

No such question exists, try 'why did you have anything BUT BLACK', the answers will be many and varied but none will be able to vindicate such a monumental fopa!

[steve_d]

dnwilliams said:

....Oh one more question why not black?

I was trying to protect you from making the same foolish mistake others have made.

You know that in life we all, at some time, make a decision that we later regret. The sensible thing is to just accept it but human nature makes us try an defend it beyond all reason. This is the case for some owners who deep down regret the colour choice of their Ultima. How vocal they are about it is only a demonstration of the depth of denial.

Steve

[Dr Peter]

A Ferrari would be great, oh the sound of a 355......, but it was the servicing that put me off.
I read in the Sunday Times Driving section, that a full exhaust system for some Ferrari was just under £8,000 plus fitting.
Err.
How is that possible.
I'm going to have my system build and expect it to be about £1500-2000.
Crazy.

[m3desmo]

Unfortunately, the costs of owning a Ferrari, have little (if anything) to do with increased complexity or higher quality componentry, but more to do with what their perceived worth is to a fashion conscious customer base, and what the manufacturer believes they can get away with charging. Try asking a Ferrari dealership about the costs of servicing, and they will look at you like you've committed a cardinal sin - almost as though - if you need to ask you can't afford to buy one. It's not just Ferrari who have this approach. Porsche are just as guilty and to a lesser degree BMW & Audi. I once asked my usual BMW dealership, how much an Inspection II service would be for my M3 and the reply (after a sarcastic intake of breath) was 'How much have you got?'. Needless to say I will not be sending anymore of my 'hard-earned' their way, thanks to the indiscretion of that one service consultant. These manufacturers (or should I say their sales staff) can be really poor at 'reading' their clients. If you don't believe me, try turning up at a Ferrari/Porsche dealer in t-shirt, jeans and trainers (not designer clobber!) and see how long it takes you to get some service. My bet is you will have to ask for it and even then they won't take you seriously.

It's a sad reality of life that most Ferraris are not owned by true petrolheads but are bought for the pose factor (obviously there are exceptions to this rule!). Ultimas on the other hand seem to be built and owned by people who bought them for their performance and not the badge that they carry (and they're mostly friendly people too!!)

All the above is precisely why my 'hard-earned' will be going into an Ultima.

[GTWayne]

steve_d said:

dnwilliams said:

....Oh one more question why not black?

I was trying to protect you from making the same foolish mistake others have made.

You know that in life we all, at some time, make a decision that we later regret. The sensible thing is to just accept it but human nature makes us try an defend it beyond all reason. This is the case for some owners who deep down regret the colour choice of their Ultima. How vocal they are about it is only a demonstration of the depth of denial.

Steve

If that is the case, surely any credibility your argument may have had has just been ruined by your statement?

[steve_d]

GTWayne said:

steve_d said:

dnwilliams said:

....Oh one more question why not black?

I was trying to protect you from making the same foolish mistake others have made.

You know that in life we all, at some time, make a decision that we later regret. The sensible thing is to just accept it but human nature makes us try an defend it beyond all reason. This is the case for some owners who deep down regret the colour choice of their Ultima. How vocal they are about it is only a demonstration of the depth of denial.

Steve

If that is the case, surely any credibility your argument may have had has just been ruined by your statement?

My argument is sound as I'm not trying to defend my colour choice.

Steve

[cupra]

m3desmo said:

It's a sad reality of life that most Ferraris are not owned by true petrolheads but are bought for the pose factor

Sadly, but too true!

It also means that the owners of Ultima's or petrolheads in general spend a lot of time with our heads in the engine room and maintaining. To get real pleasure from the Ultima, we are also talking big horse powers. Big horse powers from a lo-tec Chevy V8 will take a lot of work to maintain, or else the engine specs need to go up - and then the price will go up equally. So, if you can not do your own maintenance, make sure there is budget to also make it a reliable car (BMW M5 (new) from MLR Racetec is 38K eur for engine, clutch and gearbox, Lambo engine (new) without clutch and gearbox is 35K eur.)
Nevertheless, a 348 is not going to give smaller bills from the garage (probably higher). You can not have a performance car without maintenance, the question is whether it is maintenance or endless problems, and that depends on specs.

So I am not trying to turn you away from the Ultima, but an Ultima spec’ed to be reliable at high out-put is both expensive and difficult. I think you can get a high-performance Porsche with low mileage for a much smaller budget – but then again - it is not spec’ed or built by yourself.

And I am not laughing at a Fiat Panda, and especially not if it is the 4x4! Take a peak at the more unofficial street races - there are loads of Panda's at the start line. Some will only do one sprint - and its last sprint.....but what way to exit for the great car heaven.

[GTWayne]

steve_d said:

GTWayne said:

steve_d said:

dnwilliams said:

....Oh one more question why not black?

I was trying to protect you from making the same foolish mistake others have made.

You know that in life we all, at some time, make a decision that we later regret. The sensible thing is to just accept it but human nature makes us try an defend it beyond all reason. This is the case for some owners who deep down regret the colour choice of their Ultima. How vocal they are about it is only a demonstration of the depth of denial.

Steve

If that is the case, surely any credibility your argument may have had has just been ruined by your statement?

My argument is sound as I'm not trying to defend my colour choice.






No point in flogging a dead horse I suppose Steve, now a BLACK horse, that's a different matter!

Steve

Edited by GTWayne on Monday 4th September 13:14

[m3desmo]

cupra said:

To get real pleasure from the Ultima, we are also talking big horse powers. Big horse powers from a lo-tec Chevy V8 will take a lot of work to maintain, or else the engine specs need to go up - and then the price will go up equally.

So I am not trying to turn you away from the Ultima, but an Ultima spec’ed to be reliable at high out-put is both expensive and difficult.

The LS7 motor pushes out 505bhp in completely stock form - Is this not enough in the real world???? And all for a lot less money than the BMW & Lambo lumps you're talking about.
Stock output on the LS7 albeit running through an aftermarket ECU etc should equal reliability whilst still giving out decent performance.

[GTWayne]

As I recounted a while ago, I went out in ShitHotFast's Spyder on a track a while back and was well impressed with the standard ZZ4 motor putting out approx 360bhp. You really do not need massive power in these cars to get massive performance and although I have opted for a mega mouse in the GTW, it has since dawned on me that it would have performed admirably with a near standard SBC. i do not agree however that huge power makes for an undrivable car on the road, it is all down to choosing the correct parts and spec to work in unison to create a total package.

[dnwilliams]

cupra said:

m3desmo said:

It's a sad reality of life that most Ferraris are not owned by true petrolheads but are bought for the pose factor

Sadly, but too true!

It also means that the owners of Ultima's or petrolheads in general spend a lot of time with our heads in the engine room and maintaining. To get real pleasure from the Ultima, we are also talking big horse powers. Big horse powers from a lo-tec Chevy V8 will take a lot of work to maintain, or else the engine specs need to go up - and then the price will go up equally. So, if you can not do your own maintenance, make sure there is budget to also make it a reliable car (BMW M5 (new) from MLR Racetec is 38K eur for engine, clutch and gearbox, Lambo engine (new) without clutch and gearbox is 35K eur.)
Nevertheless, a 348 is not going to give smaller bills from the garage (probably higher). You can not have a performance car without maintenance, the question is whether it is maintenance or endless problems, and that depends on specs.

So I am not trying to turn you away from the Ultima, but an Ultima spec’ed to be reliable at high out-put is both expensive and difficult. I think you can get a high-performance Porsche with low mileage for a much smaller budget – but then again - it is not spec’ed or built by yourself.

And I am not laughing at a Fiat Panda, and especially not if it is the 4x4! Take a peak at the more unofficial street races - there are loads of Panda's at the start line. Some will only do one sprint - and its last sprint.....but what way to exit for the great car heaven.

But wouldn't an Ultima with say 380BHP to 420BHP be a perfectly adequate road going performance car? I mean my XJR is 370 BHP and it weighs considerably more than an Ultima and still gives most things, 348 Ferrari's included a run for there money, to enjoy driving a car on UK roads it has to be flexible and have a modicum of refinement to it, similar to how Stig set up his Canam, so will a stock 400BHP American speed V8 in a GTR give a more useable road going GT car? One of the things that put me off a Ferrari was how unpleasant the early 308/328 cars were to drive, the 355/360/430's are better but you need to earn footballers money to have them serviced.

[cupra]

Maybe that is where people are different – for me the Ultima is to get extreme performance I would otherwise never be able afford + the joy of having built it myself.

There are lots of rear, mid and front-engined cars which will come at ½ the price - still with the same sensation of a 350 – 400 BHP Ultima. Couldn’t most stock Porsche’s give that sensation - but with far less work and maintenance.

Otherwise it somehow takes it back to the coolness factor – where a 120 BHP Matra Murena kinda looks (or rather looked) ok on the outside, is crap on the inside, but cost less than 1.500 eur.

[GTWayne]

cupra said:

There are lots of rear, mid and front-engined cars which will come at ½ the price - still with the same sensation of a 350 – 400 BHP Ultima. Couldn’t most stock Porsche’s give that sensation - but with far less work and maintenance.

I don't think so, even a car with the same power would not perform as well as the Utima due to primarily the weight difference and the chassis dynamics being more race orientated than road biased. It is difficult to gauge any other marques pros and cons compared to the Ultima, but having had a Porsche myself (albeit a lowly 3.2 carrera), I can tell you now mate, chalk and cheese I say chalk and cheese.