RE: ANPR could be illegal reckons commissioner
Monday 17th July 2006
ANPR: Are you a suspect?Is the police's systematic countrywide installation of automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) cameras against the law?
ANPR could be illegal reckons commissioner
Surveillance system makes you suspect: who watches the watchers?
ANPR: Are you a suspect?
You've probably spotted them, and wondered what they are. The system, which is designed to capture the details of up to 50 million vehicle movements a day and store them in a searchable database, is being quietly installed all over the country. The system will store that information for up to six years.
The ANPR cameras link to both a police central database and to the DVLA's records, allowing anyone with access to find out where and when a vehicle has been spotted.
But according to Sir Andrew Leggatt, Chief Surveillance Commissioner, there's no legislative basis for this system, and has warned the government that that there was a danger it might be challenged in court under human rights legislation.
The law Leggat has in mind is the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA). It requires police and local authorities to obtain authorisation for any operation involving intrusive surveillance, authorisation that's normally granted in relation but only when it relates to specific suspects.
Leggat reckons that the government needs urgently to pass enabling legislation for the system -- which would be no bad thing.
The police describe ANPR as a "24x7 vehicle movement database", which shows that the thinking behind it is not just about catching crims but knowing where everyone in a car is and has been at any time. Just in case, at some point in the future, you become a suspect. In other words, everyone's now a suspect.
With the passage of legislation would come some degree of openness and debate, which wouldn't be a bad thing in this surveillance-addicted country.
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Discussion
Who is surprised that everyone in the uk is now a suspect. Presumption of innocence has been eroded by this government and the propogandist red-tops.
Soon we will all have to keep video diaries of everywhere we go to prove innocence rather than any government payee having to do homework to find guilt.
"Freedom - Personal liberty, as from slavery, bondage, serfdom ... the quality or state of being free, esp. to enjoy political and civil liberties" - Collins English Dictionary.
Soon we will all have to keep video diaries of everywhere we go to prove innocence rather than any government payee having to do homework to find guilt.
"Freedom - Personal liberty, as from slavery, bondage, serfdom ... the quality or state of being free, esp. to enjoy political and civil liberties" - Collins English Dictionary.
Witchfinder said:
It's not so much ANPR that I object to, but the applications it could have like road pricing and speed enforcement. If it helps prosecute tax dodgers and uninsured drivers, then it's a good thing.
Sadly I suspect that's the tip of the iceberg. I agree that tax dodgers and uninsured drivers should be punished. Getting hit by an uninsured driver has to be an utter nightmare.
Darth Dave said:
Getting hit by an uninsured driver has to be an utter nightmare.
It IS an utter nightmare - trust me. It has happened to me twice ... on both occasions the other party hit me from behind, gave false details and bu99ered off. (Both were from 'a certain demographic', a fact that we may not mention.) Yes, ANPR seems to have two prongs - one being the van by the side of the road, with police bikes aplenty, catching people who drive past who don't have tax, insurance, MOT or whatever. This I STRONGLY approve of.
The other is the 'we-re watching you' permanent installations, which simply track where every car goes, and when (and will no doubt be used to implement some nationwide speed camera system very soon.)
I suspect it's the latter which is being complained about, although if it stops the former as well I'll be very upset.
Oli.
Parrot of Doom said:
Simple solution. All cars on the road are automatically basically insured from government coffers (paid for from fuel duty).
Its not hard, is it?
Its not hard, is it?
They'll spend it all one something else then no-one will be able to claim from their insurance - see state pension fund.
There is a lesson here about abusing rights. Once it was indeed possible to take a drive without having your route logged and recorded, or to walk down a street without being supervised by the watchful eye of CCTV. However, in those times, most people taxed and insured their vehicles (because it was right) and were somehow able to walk from one end of a road to the other without kicking the wing mirrors off a few cars in the interim distance (because that's not right).
Unfortunately, at some point there has been a move towards, "If you see an opportunity to commit a crime, take it!". And I'm not just talking about the yobs who walk past your house and decide your fences would be more aesthetically pleasing in a horizontal configuration, I'm also including the 'normal' people who think, "It's okay to skip buying insurance, I won't have a crash", or "It doesn't matter if I park blocking the road, I'll only be a little while".
And yes, most of the time, it doesn't matter - until they have that big accident that they haven't had in twenty years, or until the one day an ambulance or fire engine does need to use the piece of road marked "Do Not Block".
The problem is that for us reasonable types, we lose our freedom to occasionally break the rules in a low-key manner - like slowly test driving an untaxed car round an industrial estate after hours, or going for a bit of a hoon on a quiet morning - because there are too many people out there determined to flaunt them absolutely.
The real worry with a national ANPR database is when some bitter and twisted public transport veteran who's never held a driving license decides, deep within the government, that they can start dropping letters along the line of, "Dear John Doe, we have noticed that at 11:02 your numberplate was registered in London, and yet at 11:36 your numberplate was registered in Brighton, would you care to visit the local court and explain that anomaly?"
(And you might not even deserve it. Remember, this is government IT - how do you fancy losing your license because your start position was written to a database half an hour late?)
Unfortunately, at some point there has been a move towards, "If you see an opportunity to commit a crime, take it!". And I'm not just talking about the yobs who walk past your house and decide your fences would be more aesthetically pleasing in a horizontal configuration, I'm also including the 'normal' people who think, "It's okay to skip buying insurance, I won't have a crash", or "It doesn't matter if I park blocking the road, I'll only be a little while".
And yes, most of the time, it doesn't matter - until they have that big accident that they haven't had in twenty years, or until the one day an ambulance or fire engine does need to use the piece of road marked "Do Not Block".
The problem is that for us reasonable types, we lose our freedom to occasionally break the rules in a low-key manner - like slowly test driving an untaxed car round an industrial estate after hours, or going for a bit of a hoon on a quiet morning - because there are too many people out there determined to flaunt them absolutely.
The real worry with a national ANPR database is when some bitter and twisted public transport veteran who's never held a driving license decides, deep within the government, that they can start dropping letters along the line of, "Dear John Doe, we have noticed that at 11:02 your numberplate was registered in London, and yet at 11:36 your numberplate was registered in Brighton, would you care to visit the local court and explain that anomaly?"
(And you might not even deserve it. Remember, this is government IT - how do you fancy losing your license because your start position was written to a database half an hour late?)
Timberwolf said:
Sensible stuff, particularly about recent shifts in law-abidingness.
Quite so. Eminently sensible. And the worrying thing is, I believe that everyone's behaviour is influenced by the behaviour of people around them. I know that when in an area with poor driving standards, mine slip slightly. And yet, when surrounded by good, courteous drivers, I drive slightly better. (No, I'm not proud of this, just making an observation.)
Therefore, the more it slips, the more it will slip.
Oli.
I'm also all in favour of personal freedom and hate to think of my movements being recorded however:-
had a case last month of a road-rage stabbing where because of the known location and a witness being able to say what make the car was within 12 hours the assailant was identified by two ANPR cameras and we signed the warrant to allow his home and workplace to be searched for the weapon.
Always a double edged sword that is easily dimissed until such time as it affects you!
A.
had a case last month of a road-rage stabbing where because of the known location and a witness being able to say what make the car was within 12 hours the assailant was identified by two ANPR cameras and we signed the warrant to allow his home and workplace to be searched for the weapon.
Always a double edged sword that is easily dimissed until such time as it affects you!
A.
zcacogp said:
Yes, ANPR seems to have two prongs - one being the van by the side of the road, with police bikes aplenty, catching people who drive past who don't have tax, insurance, MOT or whatever. This I STRONGLY approve of.
The other is the 'we-re watching you' permanent installations, which simply track where every car goes, and when (and will no doubt be used to implement some nationwide speed camera system very soon.)
I suspect it's the latter which is being complained about, although if it stops the former as well I'll be very upset.
Exactly my view.
The more that government takes over our daily lives the more we surrender our common sense or sense of collective responsibility.
We are already just organic revenue raisers. The sense of distance between us (the people)and them (authority)is accelerating at an almighty rate......and with the advent of technology they will project absolute power over us....one day the majority of people will wake up....but that will be along time in the future because they will keep buying into small and truthful stories about how all this power the government holds is good for us.
We are already just organic revenue raisers. The sense of distance between us (the people)and them (authority)is accelerating at an almighty rate......and with the advent of technology they will project absolute power over us....one day the majority of people will wake up....but that will be along time in the future because they will keep buying into small and truthful stories about how all this power the government holds is good for us.
Crippo said:
The more that government takes over our daily lives the more we surrender our common sense or sense of collective responsibility.
We are already just organic revenue raisers. The sense of distance between us (the people)and them (authority)is accelerating at an almighty rate......and with the advent of technology they will project absolute power over us....one day the majority of people will wake up....but that will be along time in the future because they will keep buying into small and truthful stories about how all this power the government holds is good for us.
We are already just organic revenue raisers. The sense of distance between us (the people)and them (authority)is accelerating at an almighty rate......and with the advent of technology they will project absolute power over us....one day the majority of people will wake up....but that will be along time in the future because they will keep buying into small and truthful stories about how all this power the government holds is good for us.
Morpheus said:
"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."
you have to wonder what the point of all this technology is when a criminal will just pinch a car, look for a similar car and then put a copy of the other cars numberplate on it??
All of this technology doesn't stop criminal behaviour. It is very good for extracting money from law abiding persons with tax code and national insurance numbers however?
when are the suits going to wake up to this fact.
Millions can be wasted on this which is fumbled by a simple numberplate swap???
neil.
All of this technology doesn't stop criminal behaviour. It is very good for extracting money from law abiding persons with tax code and national insurance numbers however?
when are the suits going to wake up to this fact.
Millions can be wasted on this which is fumbled by a simple numberplate swap???
neil.
Edited by heightswitch on Monday 17th July 13:14
Darth Dave said:
Sadly I suspect that's the tip of the iceberg. I agree that tax dodgers and uninsured drivers should be punished. Getting hit by an uninsured driver has to be an utter nightmare.
absolutely right.
theres already a database of numberplates, locations and time stamps from anpr. sounds like nationwide network of specs to me. misery
have been forced off the road by a car with false plates, was down in exeter and was at the front of a line of cars, then car filled with chavs came overtaking the hashed warning lines and realised too late that there was a heavy bollard in the centre of the road. So instead of overtaking the bollard, he pulled into my space, I ended up paying the excess of about £250. I could have held the car on the road, but that would have resulted in them hitting the bollard. Next time, this is what will happen and sod the damage that it causes them....
Gave police the details but the car plate was registered with a different colour....
having anpr would not have directly caught them, but having them flagged to be pulled over in the future would have helped
Gave police the details but the car plate was registered with a different colour....
having anpr would not have directly caught them, but having them flagged to be pulled over in the future would have helped
rude-boy said:
zcacogp said:
Yes, ANPR seems to have two prongs - one being the van by the side of the road, with police bikes aplenty, catching people who drive past who don't have tax, insurance, MOT or whatever. This I STRONGLY approve of.
The other is the 'we-re watching you' permanent installations, which simply track where every car goes, and when (and will no doubt be used to implement some nationwide speed camera system very soon.)
I suspect it's the latter which is being complained about, although if it stops the former as well I'll be very upset.
Exactly my view.
iv been pulled over by ANPR before it was due to a database error on their part. OK it delayed me for 10 mins while i had to show all my documents and prove that i did have tax but atleat they were trying to do something about it.
I strongly disagree with being spyed on. Why do they need to know where everyones car is all the time!! next thing we know everyone will be having a chip inplanted in our necks so they know where everyone is an any exact moment!!
guam said:
whilst this government may not abuse the system, we have no guarantee that future governments won't
if this government won't then none will!
actually i suspect the only reason we havent got it yet is because those retards responsible for IT in government/civil service cant order a copy of windows for less than a billion quid, a few back handers and a knighthood.
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