Advice for a potential new Ultima owner/builder
Discussion
Hi to all on the forum. I am new to this forum and was hoping to get some advice from other Ultima owners/builders on their experiences with builing and owning their cars.
I currently own a BMW E46 M3 which I use as my daily driver and for the occasional blast ie to Le Mans, Spa and the Nurburgring. Up until now I have not had the space or spare disposable income to justify owning a car like the Ultima but am now able and very interested in undertaking such a project. As a true petrolhead and confidently competent mechanically, I love the idea of owning a car which I have assembled with care and attention to detail and which is fast as well. The M3 is no slouch in the performance stakes but it does not possess any rawness or unique character to make it a truly exciting car. It is a very accomplished road car but is not up to sustained track use (the brakes for one can't handle it)
Having done a little research into various self-build cars, it seems like the Ultima ticks all the boxes. It looks fantastic, goes like stink and has a unique kudos amongst petrolheads. I am conscious though that it can't all be good and would like to find out the various pitfalls to watch out for in the build process, including spec etc. My questions are as follows:
1. What is a realistic budget for a car with a 400 - 500bhp engine, good brakes(AP racing), incl carbon fibre wing and a Stack dash instrumentation?
2. My ideal would be an engine with 400 - 500bhp but not too highly strung that it has problems with overheating and other reliability issues. I would like to do trips to Europe (500 - 1500 miles at a time) without having to worry whether the car will hold together for the journey. I realise of course that pre-trip maintenance and servicing will be essential (ie this is not going to be a Eurobox with 'turn-the-key-and-go' type reliability) but don't want something which is a lottery with reliability. Am I being unrealistic or is the Ultima capable of delivering this requirement if running a milder state of tune?
3. What is the backup and service from the factory like for spares etc?
4. Which model is the most popular - GTR or Can-Am?
5. My annual mileage will probably be between 2000 and 4000 miles a year. What are the recommended service intervals?
6. Do Ultimas run better and more reliably if used more often (like my Ducati)?
7. Are the tyres readily available through other distributors or are they only available from the factory (due to unusual sizing)?
I am competent with mechanical maintenance and really enjoy this aspect of ownership of a vehicle, but don't really want to get into a project which becomes a bottomless moneypit with endless reliability issues which spoil the ownership experience.
Any advice on this would be much appreciated. If there are negative aspects please do not hold back as I would rather tackle such a project with my eyes open than rushing blindly into it not knowing what is in store for me.
Cheers
Greg
I currently own a BMW E46 M3 which I use as my daily driver and for the occasional blast ie to Le Mans, Spa and the Nurburgring. Up until now I have not had the space or spare disposable income to justify owning a car like the Ultima but am now able and very interested in undertaking such a project. As a true petrolhead and confidently competent mechanically, I love the idea of owning a car which I have assembled with care and attention to detail and which is fast as well. The M3 is no slouch in the performance stakes but it does not possess any rawness or unique character to make it a truly exciting car. It is a very accomplished road car but is not up to sustained track use (the brakes for one can't handle it)
Having done a little research into various self-build cars, it seems like the Ultima ticks all the boxes. It looks fantastic, goes like stink and has a unique kudos amongst petrolheads. I am conscious though that it can't all be good and would like to find out the various pitfalls to watch out for in the build process, including spec etc. My questions are as follows:
1. What is a realistic budget for a car with a 400 - 500bhp engine, good brakes(AP racing), incl carbon fibre wing and a Stack dash instrumentation?
2. My ideal would be an engine with 400 - 500bhp but not too highly strung that it has problems with overheating and other reliability issues. I would like to do trips to Europe (500 - 1500 miles at a time) without having to worry whether the car will hold together for the journey. I realise of course that pre-trip maintenance and servicing will be essential (ie this is not going to be a Eurobox with 'turn-the-key-and-go' type reliability) but don't want something which is a lottery with reliability. Am I being unrealistic or is the Ultima capable of delivering this requirement if running a milder state of tune?
3. What is the backup and service from the factory like for spares etc?
4. Which model is the most popular - GTR or Can-Am?
5. My annual mileage will probably be between 2000 and 4000 miles a year. What are the recommended service intervals?
6. Do Ultimas run better and more reliably if used more often (like my Ducati)?
7. Are the tyres readily available through other distributors or are they only available from the factory (due to unusual sizing)?
I am competent with mechanical maintenance and really enjoy this aspect of ownership of a vehicle, but don't really want to get into a project which becomes a bottomless moneypit with endless reliability issues which spoil the ownership experience.
Any advice on this would be much appreciated. If there are negative aspects please do not hold back as I would rather tackle such a project with my eyes open than rushing blindly into it not knowing what is in store for me.
Cheers
Greg
Hi Greg:
1. What is a realistic budget for a car with a 400 - 500bhp engine, good brakes(AP racing), incl carbon fibre wing and a Stack dash instrumentation?
50k is a safe bet using all factory sourced bits.
2. My ideal would be an engine with 400 - 500bhp but not too highly strung that it has problems with overheating and other reliability issues. I would like to do trips to Europe (500 - 1500 miles at a time) without having to worry whether the car will hold together for the journey. I realise of course that pre-trip maintenance and servicing will be essential (ie this is not going to be a Eurobox with 'turn-the-key-and-go' type reliability) but don't want something which is a lottery with reliability. Am I being unrealistic or is the Ultima capable of delivering this requirement if running a milder state of tune?
Ultima is wholly capable of these sort of trips with no problems. As you say, build for reliability as well as for performance.
3. What is the backup and service from the factory like for spares etc?
Excellent - but comes at a price.
4. Which model is the most popular - GTR or Can-Am?
I 'think' that there are more GTRs sold than Can-Ams (but may be wrong?)
5. My annual mileage will probably be between 2000 and 4000 miles a year. What are the recommended service intervals?
It can depend on the engine, but regular oil changes are good practice (2000 miles), but once a year is not unreasonable. Bear in mind, that Small Blocks in their normal incarnation are just a 'normal' lazy V8 with appropriate service intervals.
6. Do Ultimas run better and more reliably if used more often (like my Ducati)?
I'd say that's probably true. Most cars hate being sat doing nothing (certainly like Ducati's
)
7. Are the tyres readily available through other distributors or are they only available from the factory (due to unusual sizing)?
No, they are available from any reputable tyre supplier, but stocks can be thin on the ground so the factory can be more convenient.
1. What is a realistic budget for a car with a 400 - 500bhp engine, good brakes(AP racing), incl carbon fibre wing and a Stack dash instrumentation?
50k is a safe bet using all factory sourced bits.
2. My ideal would be an engine with 400 - 500bhp but not too highly strung that it has problems with overheating and other reliability issues. I would like to do trips to Europe (500 - 1500 miles at a time) without having to worry whether the car will hold together for the journey. I realise of course that pre-trip maintenance and servicing will be essential (ie this is not going to be a Eurobox with 'turn-the-key-and-go' type reliability) but don't want something which is a lottery with reliability. Am I being unrealistic or is the Ultima capable of delivering this requirement if running a milder state of tune?
Ultima is wholly capable of these sort of trips with no problems. As you say, build for reliability as well as for performance.
3. What is the backup and service from the factory like for spares etc?
Excellent - but comes at a price.
4. Which model is the most popular - GTR or Can-Am?
I 'think' that there are more GTRs sold than Can-Ams (but may be wrong?)
5. My annual mileage will probably be between 2000 and 4000 miles a year. What are the recommended service intervals?
It can depend on the engine, but regular oil changes are good practice (2000 miles), but once a year is not unreasonable. Bear in mind, that Small Blocks in their normal incarnation are just a 'normal' lazy V8 with appropriate service intervals.
6. Do Ultimas run better and more reliably if used more often (like my Ducati)?
I'd say that's probably true. Most cars hate being sat doing nothing (certainly like Ducati's
) 7. Are the tyres readily available through other distributors or are they only available from the factory (due to unusual sizing)?
No, they are available from any reputable tyre supplier, but stocks can be thin on the ground so the factory can be more convenient.
splatspeed said:
i aint going any where near 50 k
but i am tighter than a gnats arse squeezed over a jam jar
my budget is 20 k
probably 25 in the end
but there is allways the option of pre loved models
have a look on here
i think stig might be on his third am i correct????
but i am tighter than a gnats arse squeezed over a jam jar
my budget is 20 k
probably 25 in the end
but there is allways the option of pre loved models
have a look on here
i think stig might be on his third am i correct????
No - second
I'm not completely insane 
Wow, that was a quick response! In my own estimation I had figured on a £50K build cost with a £10K contingency budget for the inevitable must-have tweaks and upgrades along the way. Sounds like I should be able to achieve a good spec car on this budget.
In my quest for a more powerful(fun!!) car than the M3, I had also contemplated the purchase of a second hand Porsche 996 Turbo / GT3RS but the more I look at it, the more attractive the Ultima seems (believe it or not I don't believe in buying a car for the badge even though I own a BMW). When balanced against the purchase and running costs of a GT3RS for example (which are ludicrously expensive) the Ultima seems to be the better bet if you are not worried about the badge. Even BMW will be wanting £1500/year from me next year to extend the M3's warranty!
The idea of owning an Ultima with an engine on which I can work and maintain is very attractive. Further, the build process would be invaluable for understanding and knowing everything about the car (something which cannot be achieved by buying from a mainstream volume manufacturer).
An idea which I have toyed with though, is to buy a used Ultima (cheaper initial outlay than new kit,engine & gearbox) and strip and rebuild to my standard. Do any of you think this is worthwhile or am I potentially opening a can of worms?
In my quest for a more powerful(fun!!) car than the M3, I had also contemplated the purchase of a second hand Porsche 996 Turbo / GT3RS but the more I look at it, the more attractive the Ultima seems (believe it or not I don't believe in buying a car for the badge even though I own a BMW). When balanced against the purchase and running costs of a GT3RS for example (which are ludicrously expensive) the Ultima seems to be the better bet if you are not worried about the badge. Even BMW will be wanting £1500/year from me next year to extend the M3's warranty!
The idea of owning an Ultima with an engine on which I can work and maintain is very attractive. Further, the build process would be invaluable for understanding and knowing everything about the car (something which cannot be achieved by buying from a mainstream volume manufacturer).
An idea which I have toyed with though, is to buy a used Ultima (cheaper initial outlay than new kit,engine & gearbox) and strip and rebuild to my standard. Do any of you think this is worthwhile or am I potentially opening a can of worms?
M3desmo said:
An idea which I have toyed with though, is to buy a used Ultima (cheaper initial outlay than new kit,engine & gearbox) and strip and rebuild to my standard. Do any of you think this is worthwhile or am I potentially opening a can of worms?
I originally wanted to build one myself, but as space/time/patience were not willing, so I bought a used one instead...
I've had plenty of fun over the last year modifying it, and as it already had lots of the good bits on it, I've only had to fix little niggly things and replace/upgrade the bits I wanted to, i.e. adding an Quaiffe LSD, plumbed fire extinguisher, etc, etc...
It's definately a good way to get into the thick of it quickly and still get some summer driving in(which is what I wanted!), plus there is a good selection of second hand cars in the for-sale section at the moment, Gaz's yellow one is nicely built, and well built, also I'll probably be listing mine soon, to satisfy the wifes urge to renovate the new house...
The cars are quite easy to work on, and as you can remove most of the covers, you can already see much more than what would be hidden on a regular car...
Edited by peterpsg on Thursday 6th July 13:24
peterpsg said:
It's definately a good way to get into the thick of it quickly and still get some summer driving in(which is what I wanted!), plus there is a good selection of second hand cars in the for-sale section at the moment, Gaz's yellow one is nicely built, and well built,
Cheque's in the post Pete
Hi M3Desmo
You can buy an already build car - but I can assure that there is nothing more scary and thrilling at the same time, when the stripped CanAm chassis is safely blocked up in your garage - just like when you got your first box of Lego. You can see the lines of the finished car - but there's still some 300-400 hours to go before its for real.
My budget is a little high, 85k eur, but I also want a modern engine and look at the BMW M5 V8 engine - and so far the guys at MLR Racetec seems to be the best choice. I have spent half my life on powering up compact's and know what good electronics can do for the performance and precision. I intend to spend about 25k eur of my budget on clustered mini-UX servers, PoE switches etc, which will basically make the car remote controlled, no dialers, no buttons, no handles - all touchscreens, keyboards and maybe a steering wheel.
Cars are a big black hole where money disappear - you should know that by now - but I had the same relaibility concerns as you have (I also wanna do the pan-European tour without too much worry about durability) and that's the reason for choosing the BMW engine. It's a higher upfront investment - but I also expect that once its in, configured and mapped, it will be more reliable and will save me money and trouble in the long run.
Good luck - and go for it.
You can buy an already build car - but I can assure that there is nothing more scary and thrilling at the same time, when the stripped CanAm chassis is safely blocked up in your garage - just like when you got your first box of Lego. You can see the lines of the finished car - but there's still some 300-400 hours to go before its for real.
My budget is a little high, 85k eur, but I also want a modern engine and look at the BMW M5 V8 engine - and so far the guys at MLR Racetec seems to be the best choice. I have spent half my life on powering up compact's and know what good electronics can do for the performance and precision. I intend to spend about 25k eur of my budget on clustered mini-UX servers, PoE switches etc, which will basically make the car remote controlled, no dialers, no buttons, no handles - all touchscreens, keyboards and maybe a steering wheel.
Cars are a big black hole where money disappear - you should know that by now - but I had the same relaibility concerns as you have (I also wanna do the pan-European tour without too much worry about durability) and that's the reason for choosing the BMW engine. It's a higher upfront investment - but I also expect that once its in, configured and mapped, it will be more reliable and will save me money and trouble in the long run.
Good luck - and go for it.
€85k/£60k doesn't sound like a lot of money when your putting a different engine in the car. Given the choice I'd put an LSx in my car. A truely modern engine with EFI, COP, decent oil seals 
but cheap to buy and run and not a huge shift from an old skool Ultima with a Gen I SBC.
What's mini-UX?? I know that PoE is (Power over Ethernet) in my world (CCTV) but don't know what it means in an automotive context. Can you buy off the shelf the kind of distributed electric control system that Audio were fitting to the R10??? When I heard about it it sounded like a great way to reduce the complexity of a race car's electrics.
but cheap to buy and run and not a huge shift from an old skool Ultima with a Gen I SBC. What's mini-UX?? I know that PoE is (Power over Ethernet) in my world (CCTV) but don't know what it means in an automotive context. Can you buy off the shelf the kind of distributed electric control system that Audio were fitting to the R10??? When I heard about it it sounded like a great way to reduce the complexity of a race car's electrics.
davefiddes said:
What's mini-UX?? I know that PoE is (Power over Ethernet) in my world (CCTV) but don't know what it means in an automotive context. Can you buy off the shelf the kind of distributed electric control system that Audio were fitting to the R10??? When I heard about it it sounded like a great way to reduce the complexity of a race car's electrics.
You got it! You’re a software engineer :=)
The UX solution is 2 clustered Unix servers running in parallell and real-time so if one fails the other is already active. The cluster will also ensure full redundancy on the ethernet. The wiring loom is replaced with Cat6 PoE cables so there is data connection and power supply at any point, and with a small chip, you can even build intelligence into every wired point on the car. Naturally, everything needs to be in industrial standards. Hydraulic suspension, all your electronics, ECU and EFI settings at the tip of your fingers.
I am too much of a purist for traction control, antispin etc, so the intention is not to get wrapped in comfort like in a Merc, but to make as many controls as possible available at the tip of your finger. That would enable you to perfect the car so much that you don't need traction control - because I can't afford an Enzo.
I better stop now before I start talking about road recognition using Fluffy B algorithm patterns (we gotta find something better to use road recognition for than safety) or using “The PersonalBrain” with multidimensional association file-system to minimize the distraction and attention required when operating the cars controls. Oh yeah, then there was a CanAm I have to build first.
The ultimate goal is to drive the German Autobahn, receive an e-mail on the cars mobile connection with the latest EFI patch from Oettinger and feel a kick in my stomach when I hit enter.
Off the shelf – nope
Hi Greg,
Walton on Thames....no excuses not to come over to see tha start of the Cannonball at Oaklands Park Hotel in Weybridge from 12noon this Sunday then.
I guess you are a Ryka's Warrior then every Sunday morning?
Please don't overtake me again on the wrong side, just as I'm gonna pull in to let you past!
Lucky P
Walton on Thames....no excuses not to come over to see tha start of the Cannonball at Oaklands Park Hotel in Weybridge from 12noon this Sunday then.
I guess you are a Ryka's Warrior then every Sunday morning?
Please don't overtake me again on the wrong side, just as I'm gonna pull in to let you past!
Lucky P
I tend to steer clear of Boxhill most of the time due to the excessive presence of the rozzers (especially in the Summer). I usually head down to Goring on a Sunday morning (early) and have nice clear roads with the rozzers still tucked up in bed! I am not really interested in the posing aspect of owning a fast car or bike and definitely prefer just having a clear run on fast flowing roads.
I would also say that although I ride a sportsbike, I am not an inconsiderate idiot with other road users (I know there are plenty of idiot bikers about but would not wish to be counted in their number) and my sense of self-preservation & responsibility is too strong for me to carry out daft actions like undertaking cars.
Weybridge sounds like a great idea to see the start of the Cannonball - I will definitely try and get down there. Are any of you taking part or are you just spectating? Keep an eye out for me - I will either be in the loud GruppeM equipped silver M3 or on a Ducati 996 with loud pipes (my neighbours do love me - honest!!)
I would also say that although I ride a sportsbike, I am not an inconsiderate idiot with other road users (I know there are plenty of idiot bikers about but would not wish to be counted in their number) and my sense of self-preservation & responsibility is too strong for me to carry out daft actions like undertaking cars.
Weybridge sounds like a great idea to see the start of the Cannonball - I will definitely try and get down there. Are any of you taking part or are you just spectating? Keep an eye out for me - I will either be in the loud GruppeM equipped silver M3 or on a Ducati 996 with loud pipes (my neighbours do love me - honest!!)
cupra said:
davefiddes said:
What's mini-UX?? I know that PoE is (Power over Ethernet) in my world (CCTV) but don't know what it means in an automotive context. Can you buy off the shelf the kind of distributed electric control system that Audio were fitting to the R10??? When I heard about it it sounded like a great way to reduce the complexity of a race car's electrics.
You got it! You’re a software engineer :=)
The UX solution is 2 clustered Unix servers running in parallell and real-time so if one fails the other is already active. The cluster will also ensure full redundancy on the ethernet. The wiring loom is replaced with Cat6 PoE cables so there is data connection and power supply at any point, and with a small chip, you can even build intelligence into every wired point on the car. Naturally, everything needs to be in industrial standards. Hydraulic suspension, all your electronics, ECU and EFI settings at the tip of your fingers.
I am too much of a purist for traction control, antispin etc, so the intention is not to get wrapped in comfort like in a Merc, but to make as many controls as possible available at the tip of your finger. That would enable you to perfect the car so much that you don't need traction control - because I can't afford an Enzo.
I better stop now before I start talking about road recognition using Fluffy B algorithm patterns (we gotta find something better to use road recognition for than safety) or using “The PersonalBrain” with multidimensional association file-system to minimize the distraction and attention required when operating the cars controls. Oh yeah, then there was a CanAm I have to build first.
The ultimate goal is to drive the German Autobahn, receive an e-mail on the cars mobile connection with the latest EFI patch from Oettinger and feel a kick in my stomach when I hit enter.
Off the shelf – nope
Dont forget the X19 space modulator!
Watched the start of the Cannonball run yesterday and saw Luckyp and his black GTR - stonking car - easily drew the most attention with its looks and noise. I think the Ferrari / Porsche owners present were feeling a bit left out because no-one seemed that interested in their cars.
I have made my mind up to get going with the planning to build one for myself. Was thinking that I would probably start by speccing the engine. Any advice on where to source the engine from, what spec to go for to get 450 - 550bhp whilst keeping a good degree of reliability, and whether to go for injected or carb setup?
I have made my mind up to get going with the planning to build one for myself. Was thinking that I would probably start by speccing the engine. Any advice on where to source the engine from, what spec to go for to get 450 - 550bhp whilst keeping a good degree of reliability, and whether to go for injected or carb setup?
Unless you intend going outside the norm, i.e. non Chevy, then I would leave the engine for the mo as it is almost the last bit to go into the build. You just need to bear in mind that engines after a certain age will require cats to get through SVA and registration. If you decide that you will somehow deal with that then EFI will then be the logical route.
Steve
Steve
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