Is Saftey 'Equipment' A Requirement?
Discussion
Just read this weeks Autocar and Mr Sutcliffe marks down TVR cabin for quality and lack of safety kit.
Question is do the cars need ABS, Traction Control, Airbags etc. firstly from a personal point of view and secondly from a legal requirement to sell in global markets?
My personal preference is that the cars don't need ABS or Traction Control and having been in a head on impact at 50mph can't say airbags are needed either.
Your views and insight please.
Also just re read what is the man on "Okay, the TVR has a full rollcage, but even so, which one would you rather have an accident in? Precisely." The system that protects racing drivers might be the one to favour.
Question is do the cars need ABS, Traction Control, Airbags etc. firstly from a personal point of view and secondly from a legal requirement to sell in global markets?
My personal preference is that the cars don't need ABS or Traction Control and having been in a head on impact at 50mph can't say airbags are needed either.
Your views and insight please.
Also just re read what is the man on "Okay, the TVR has a full rollcage, but even so, which one would you rather have an accident in? Precisely." The system that protects racing drivers might be the one to favour.
Edited by Nick Gligic on Thursday 22 June 15:40
Edited by Nick Gligic on Thursday 22 June 17:23
for TVR to break into the American market I think TCS/ABs and airbags will be a must, but as it was suggested, TVR should make it an option not a permenant feature
Personally the Ultima GTR recently has shown everyone that ABS isnt a massive factor in its recent record breaking 0-100-0 test
I think TVR's opinion on safety features has always been "Dont crash"
Personally the Ultima GTR recently has shown everyone that ABS isnt a massive factor in its recent record breaking 0-100-0 test
I think TVR's opinion on safety features has always been "Dont crash"
The biggest problem with safety is the nut that holds the wheel. Fix this, and a whole lot of problems go away 
(I did see a pilot wrench for sale somewhere once...)
Passive safety does seem to be very much overlooked these days. Far too much for my liking. I don't like either of my parents-in-law's eurobox cars - they tick almost every safety box going, but the damn things don't feel safe. OK, they're probably safer in an accident, but I feel they're much more likely to be involved in the said accident.
What happened to such things as:
"predictable, benign chassis design" (unlike some small cars I could name - where the designers must have thought "if we compromise handling, we can fit in room for another 2 tins of baked beans and all we have to do is fit another microchip..."
"Loud enough to hear coming when you're a pedestrian" (modern cars are too quiet!!)
"feeling in the steering" (I don't like too much PAS - you don't know what's going on!)
I could go on at length - too many auditory and visual cues are being removed from cars, so you often don't have a clue what's happening. Try driving your normal car while wearing ear defenders...
OK, I exagerate a bit sometimes, but there's a grain of truth in there (somewhere)
(I did see a pilot wrench for sale somewhere once...) Passive safety does seem to be very much overlooked these days. Far too much for my liking. I don't like either of my parents-in-law's eurobox cars - they tick almost every safety box going, but the damn things don't feel safe. OK, they're probably safer in an accident, but I feel they're much more likely to be involved in the said accident.
What happened to such things as:
"predictable, benign chassis design" (unlike some small cars I could name - where the designers must have thought "if we compromise handling, we can fit in room for another 2 tins of baked beans and all we have to do is fit another microchip..."
"Loud enough to hear coming when you're a pedestrian" (modern cars are too quiet!!)
"feeling in the steering" (I don't like too much PAS - you don't know what's going on!)
I could go on at length - too many auditory and visual cues are being removed from cars, so you often don't have a clue what's happening. Try driving your normal car while wearing ear defenders...
OK, I exagerate a bit sometimes, but there's a grain of truth in there (somewhere)
K18STM said:
Mr Wheeler once said something to the effect of - if you need ABS and traction control you shouldn't be driving a TVR
I watched T.G once when J.C was test driving a TVR (not sure which one) and he said a similar statement something along the lines of when TVR were asked why there cars were NOT fitted with airbags, TVR replied dont crash and they wont be needed (or something like that)
Glyn.
One point to consider on that is if most of the safety functions are taken away from the driver and taken by electronics(ESP, ABS, Traction Control) then the follwing should be considered:
a) driver feels more inherently safe and so takes more risks and less care in their driving
b) What do they do if the Electronics fail? What if they dont know how to control a car in a Skid or to release and reapply breaks if the wheels lock.
Its a difficult one but I actually take more care now i drive a TVR because i am more aware of my own vulnerability.
So.. Improve road safety.. Drive a TVR...
(See you can slant it any way you like!)
a) driver feels more inherently safe and so takes more risks and less care in their driving
b) What do they do if the Electronics fail? What if they dont know how to control a car in a Skid or to release and reapply breaks if the wheels lock.
Its a difficult one but I actually take more care now i drive a TVR because i am more aware of my own vulnerability.
So.. Improve road safety.. Drive a TVR...
(See you can slant it any way you like!)
As has been said, TC and ABS are requirements of the US market, along with a host of other safety and emissions criteria. Also, if you are unable to eat a burger and place a 25oz coke in a cup holder while cruising down the freeway in a car that demands no driver skill, I doubt very much it would sell...
I have to say that the lack of safety equipment in the TVR means that I am nothing but 110% focussed on the job in hand (i.e. avoiding scenery and other vehicles) when driving it. I've often heard it said that bikers make the best drivers as the exposed nature of being on a motorbike really makes them masters of roadsense; having had the Tiv for a while now, I can well believe it.
I have to say that the lack of safety equipment in the TVR means that I am nothing but 110% focussed on the job in hand (i.e. avoiding scenery and other vehicles) when driving it. I've often heard it said that bikers make the best drivers as the exposed nature of being on a motorbike really makes them masters of roadsense; having had the Tiv for a while now, I can well believe it.
Nick Gligic said:
Also just re read what is the man on "Okay, the TVR has a full rollcage, but even so, which one would you rather have an accident in? Precisely." The system that protects racing drivers might be the one to favour.
Quite. Further to that fitting a full harness as standard would be a big boon to safety.
You're asking this question in the wrong forum. Everyone here is an enthusiast and, for the very most part, buys happily into the idea that the car is a finely honed tool that does exactly precisely what they tell it to do and nothing else and if you prang it it was your own fault.
They buy into that idea. And even so we've heard (right here on PH) many tales of "it got away from me", "I caught the first one but then...", and even "I was braking hard and the back end just came round".
TVRs are involved in a statistically higher number of single car incidents than other makes of vehicle...and, of course, all sports cars feature more highly in that list than shopping cars.
Now. You can sell a car like a TVR to an enthusiast. You cannot sell a car like a TVR to someone who happens to have 40K to spend and wants to buy a "nice car".
Sadly there are a lot more buyers of "nice cars" than there are enthusiasts. We may disparage these drivers saying "they shouldn't buy a car like that if they don't know how to drive it". Disparage all you want. These people have money. And BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, Ferrari, Lamborghini et al are very happy to take it.
If TVR want to get back to selling two or three thousand cars a year instead of a few hundred they need to address a wider market.
Maybe by going international they can snare enough "enthusiasts" around the world to do it. Or maybe they could sell loads of cars right here by giving the market what it wants. And it wants airbags, traction, ABS, stability control, brake distribution and even automatic!
Will I buy one of these cars? Yes probably. Not auto. But the rest of it...
They buy into that idea. And even so we've heard (right here on PH) many tales of "it got away from me", "I caught the first one but then...", and even "I was braking hard and the back end just came round".
TVRs are involved in a statistically higher number of single car incidents than other makes of vehicle...and, of course, all sports cars feature more highly in that list than shopping cars.
Now. You can sell a car like a TVR to an enthusiast. You cannot sell a car like a TVR to someone who happens to have 40K to spend and wants to buy a "nice car".
Sadly there are a lot more buyers of "nice cars" than there are enthusiasts. We may disparage these drivers saying "they shouldn't buy a car like that if they don't know how to drive it". Disparage all you want. These people have money. And BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, Ferrari, Lamborghini et al are very happy to take it.
If TVR want to get back to selling two or three thousand cars a year instead of a few hundred they need to address a wider market.
Maybe by going international they can snare enough "enthusiasts" around the world to do it. Or maybe they could sell loads of cars right here by giving the market what it wants. And it wants airbags, traction, ABS, stability control, brake distribution and even automatic!
Will I buy one of these cars? Yes probably. Not auto. But the rest of it...
Nuggs said:
bjwoods said:
isn't ABS at mandatory requirement in the EU, for all manufactures, at least above 1 few thousand?
thought that came in last year?
B
thought that came in last year?
B
If that's the case, then whatever thousand the threshhold is, TVR obviously haven't exceeded it...
Isn't this way TVR have always done (in recent years anyway) variations on each perticular model, and called it something else (T350T/C) Tuscan RR/S?
chris watton said:
Nuggs said:
bjwoods said:
isn't ABS at mandatory requirement in the EU, for all manufactures, at least above 1 few thousand?
thought that came in last year?
B
thought that came in last year?
B
If that's the case, then whatever thousand the threshhold is, TVR obviously haven't exceeded it...
Isn't this way TVR have always done (in recent years anyway) variations on each perticular model, and called it something else (T350T/C) Tuscan RR/S?
Not sure, guv, but on the basis of this year's (much publicised) disappointing sales, I'm sure that the threshold (if there is one) wasn't feeling too threatened regardless of model line differentiation.
I agree with the active safety point - if you drive with your eyes and ears open (which you will in a TIV 
)then you are a lot more with it tehn in a box which pampers you with all the electronics and make you feel safer then you actually are (drive on the motor way in a really bad weather and you know what I mean- driving within the speedlimit is sometimes to fast...)
But what is wrong with added passive safety? (I personally would NOT mind Airbags and ABS in my CERBIE)- however I agree doodies like traction control should be switchable... As for the extra weight- if the cars will have their construction output most of us would probably not notify a difference
)then you are a lot more with it tehn in a box which pampers you with all the electronics and make you feel safer then you actually are (drive on the motor way in a really bad weather and you know what I mean- driving within the speedlimit is sometimes to fast...) But what is wrong with added passive safety? (I personally would NOT mind Airbags and ABS in my CERBIE)- however I agree doodies like traction control should be switchable... As for the extra weight- if the cars will have their construction output most of us would probably not notify a difference
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