Re: DO WOMEN NEED A HELPING HAND?
Wednesday 8th January 2003
Do Women Need a Helping Hand?
Women in motorsport - are they any more hard done by than men?
Discussion
Whilst their aims may be laudable I would suggest that "women only races" are patronising and not what most competitive women want.
In my more energetic days I used to do a bit of road running (10K,Half/Full Marathon). In these events there is always a good number of female runners, now obviously they don’t compete directly on times (unless it’s Paula Radcliff) so have their own prizes but run in the same competitions alongside male runners. Indeed I guess the faster female runners tag alongside male runners for company encouragement etc like for like. Any "woman" only races are usually poorly attended (or attended more by ladies interested in health rather than competitive running) and from what woman say are not what is wanted. Rich...
In my more energetic days I used to do a bit of road running (10K,Half/Full Marathon). In these events there is always a good number of female runners, now obviously they don’t compete directly on times (unless it’s Paula Radcliff) so have their own prizes but run in the same competitions alongside male runners. Indeed I guess the faster female runners tag alongside male runners for company encouragement etc like for like. Any "woman" only races are usually poorly attended (or attended more by ladies interested in health rather than competitive running) and from what woman say are not what is wanted. Rich...
Helen whatshername says "ladies are rarely treated as serious contenders in thier own right" and then proposes discussions for having women only races. Surely this will do nothing to enhance the way they are treated. Any women I see at race meetings seem to be treated particularly well as they are something of a novelty.
The reason you don't see many women racing with men is because of the "she's a woman therefore she cannot drive" attitude held by many men.
I'm sorry but I strongly disagree, some women are just as good at driving as men are, and some are better.
It's sad to know that some people hold such dogmatic views of women racing drivers, or is it because you are scared of being beaten by a woman? Grow up!!
The fact of the matter is that some women want to race, and I cannot see any reason why they should be regarded as inferior in their racing competence and driving ability. If I get beaten by a woman I'll congratulate her, she was faster/better than me on the day and I'm happy to accept that just as if a male had beaten me.
Just because women have breasts and different genitalia to men is not an adequate reason not to let the the two sexes compete together, however there are races/places/clubs who aren't at all bothered about which sex can race or not, IMO no race series should hesitate in taking on women drivers.
If your daughter wanted to start racing, would you let her and help her, just as if your son wanted to?
I agree with RichB in that "'women only races' are patronising and not what most competitive women want", there is nothing that makes them not suitable to compete with men and they shouldn't have to feel like they aren't good enough.
I know a few women in auto-testing who could probably show you a thing or two about parking, I'm sure SGirl and a few of the other female PHers would have something to say about that, the refuelling part and Bettyswollox's absurd opinion.
Thank you.
>> Edited by Graham.J on Friday 10th January 02:22
I'm sorry but I strongly disagree, some women are just as good at driving as men are, and some are better.
It's sad to know that some people hold such dogmatic views of women racing drivers, or is it because you are scared of being beaten by a woman? Grow up!!
The fact of the matter is that some women want to race, and I cannot see any reason why they should be regarded as inferior in their racing competence and driving ability. If I get beaten by a woman I'll congratulate her, she was faster/better than me on the day and I'm happy to accept that just as if a male had beaten me.
Just because women have breasts and different genitalia to men is not an adequate reason not to let the the two sexes compete together, however there are races/places/clubs who aren't at all bothered about which sex can race or not, IMO no race series should hesitate in taking on women drivers.
If your daughter wanted to start racing, would you let her and help her, just as if your son wanted to?
I agree with RichB in that "'women only races' are patronising and not what most competitive women want", there is nothing that makes them not suitable to compete with men and they shouldn't have to feel like they aren't good enough.
jeff_m said: Maybe some concession could be made for pit stops (parking)
I know a few women in auto-testing who could probably show you a thing or two about parking, I'm sure SGirl and a few of the other female PHers would have something to say about that, the refuelling part and Bettyswollox's absurd opinion.
Thank you.
>> Edited by Graham.J on Friday 10th January 02:22
Graham
Relax, it's just a forum.
Many men do a lot of the background work in Motorsport,whether it's throwing a spanner, operating a stopwatch etc etc etc, that have never had the opportunity to drive.
Many may feel that maybe when more females do some of the "lower jobs" then more will eventually pass through to the sweeter positions, like driving.
Actually one of my friends wives is a far better driver than she is with a stopwatch! but that's another story.
I just think it should be "no leg up".
The topic was do they need a helping hand. ie an advantage a young male tring to get started.
Oh and thanks for negative I assume it was you, don't worry I wont recipricate.
Jeff
>> Edited by jeff m on Friday 10th January 06:58
Relax, it's just a forum.
Many men do a lot of the background work in Motorsport,whether it's throwing a spanner, operating a stopwatch etc etc etc, that have never had the opportunity to drive.
Many may feel that maybe when more females do some of the "lower jobs" then more will eventually pass through to the sweeter positions, like driving.
Actually one of my friends wives is a far better driver than she is with a stopwatch! but that's another story.
I just think it should be "no leg up".
The topic was do they need a helping hand. ie an advantage a young male tring to get started.
Oh and thanks for negative I assume it was you, don't worry I wont recipricate.
Jeff
>> Edited by jeff m on Friday 10th January 06:58
OK - so what about ethnic minorities as well. You don't see many black or asian drivers in motorsports either. I just think certain categories people are better at different things and minorities shouldn't be a special case just because they are under represented in a particular field.
I agree that this kind of thing is just a tad on the patronising side. Yes, it should be applauded because it's a way of raising the profile of women in motorsport, but the honest truth of the matter is that if more women wanted to race, they would. There are no physical reasons why a woman should be a worse driver on the track than a man. And personally, I can put my own fuel in and I don't mind getting rained on if there's no bloke in a bikini available to hold my brolly for me. 
Hm - interesting point. I used to belong to an autosport club, but I stopped going because I got bored with being ignored (literally!) by the blokes at the meets. The last straw came when I was crewing on a rally and someone whipped a wheel brace out of my hands as I was changing a set of wheels (oi! 12 seconds a wheel, thank you very much mister!) because "that's no job for a woman". I mean - doh!! Change your own
wheels then! Sexism is alive and well and living in motorsport to an extent...
The thing is, I think you'll find the women who compete aren't really your typical "little woman" types who use the rear-view mirror for make-up and hair checks and who don't realise that cars need oil putting in occasionally. They're assertive (note: not necessarily feminist) and confident in their own abilities, and they love cars. Same as the men who compete, I suppose. I can't imagine for one moment that any woman who really wanted to compete in motorsport would worry she wasn't good enough - at least until she'd tried and proven herself to be not good enough!
At the end of the day, whether or not to compete on the track comes down to whether you have the cash, the time, the volition and the ability. Not on your sex.
And as a footnote, I'd like to add that the ladies' "facilities" at Bedford are some of the best I've ever seen!!
however there are races/places/clubs who aren't at all bothered about which sex can race or not
Hm - interesting point. I used to belong to an autosport club, but I stopped going because I got bored with being ignored (literally!) by the blokes at the meets. The last straw came when I was crewing on a rally and someone whipped a wheel brace out of my hands as I was changing a set of wheels (oi! 12 seconds a wheel, thank you very much mister!) because "that's no job for a woman". I mean - doh!! Change your own
wheels then! Sexism is alive and well and living in motorsport to an extent...
I agree with RichB in that "'women only races' are patronising and not what most competitive women want", there is nothing that makes them not suitable to compete with men and they shouldn't have to feel like they aren't good enough.
The thing is, I think you'll find the women who compete aren't really your typical "little woman" types who use the rear-view mirror for make-up and hair checks and who don't realise that cars need oil putting in occasionally. They're assertive (note: not necessarily feminist) and confident in their own abilities, and they love cars. Same as the men who compete, I suppose. I can't imagine for one moment that any woman who really wanted to compete in motorsport would worry she wasn't good enough - at least until she'd tried and proven herself to be not good enough!
At the end of the day, whether or not to compete on the track comes down to whether you have the cash, the time, the volition and the ability. Not on your sex.
And as a footnote, I'd like to add that the ladies' "facilities" at Bedford are some of the best I've ever seen!!
Strange thing is that in another sport I participate in there is a good proportion of women, i.e. gliding. In fact at Booker where I fly from we are proud of having one of the highest ratios of women pilots to men, something like 60%/30% - we also had a female CFI "boss on the airfield" and (perhaps as a result) have several women who compete at National and International level (with men) - and indeed on occasions win. Not that gliding is any less physical than driving, (perhaps more so when you consider lifting heavy wings onto fuselages during rigging / manhandling the craft around the launch point etc. etc.) but perhaps the attitudes of male pilots are more advanced . We spend many hours hanging around the airfield in the summer and women are positively encouraged to be there – it gets boring just talking to men! Perhaps motor racing needs to change? Brolly dollies/Tarts in hot-pants handing out JPS fags an’ all that stuff – it’s a bit 60's isn’t it! Rich...
. We spend many hours hanging around the airfield in the summer and women are positively encouraged to be there – it gets boring just talking to men! Perhaps motor racing needs to change? Brolly dollies/Tarts in hot-pants handing out JPS fags an’ all that stuff – it’s a bit 60's isn’t it! Rich...I think women should be encouraged, but as S-Girl said, most women who really want to do it, do so.(within the restraints of cash/time that everyone has). I think trying to link women competing with things like brolly girls would have a negative effect. It is likely to create a backlash of people who would say "Ok, so we've got women racers now, and all of a sudden they want to change everything to thier way of thinking". If women get to the level where they are provided with a brolly dolly and then don't want one that's fine, but what has that go to do with male drivers who quite like the idea. Why not have brolly blokes for girlie racers.
I think the problem that a lot of female drivers may have (just my thoughts) is that they are introduced to the sport at a participatory level my thier male partners who are already racing, such that they come to the race and help out and get involved when they can and look after the kids and get a barbie going etc. Then when they rightly want to have a go it is probable they would want to race in the same series as thier partner because they would be familiar with it, but then there is no-one they can turn to to look after the kids etc, unless the male partner decides not to race.
I wish I could persuade my wife to have a go, but she's just not inetrested. She comes along and supports though which I guess I should be happy about.
sparkey
I think the problem that a lot of female drivers may have (just my thoughts) is that they are introduced to the sport at a participatory level my thier male partners who are already racing, such that they come to the race and help out and get involved when they can and look after the kids and get a barbie going etc. Then when they rightly want to have a go it is probable they would want to race in the same series as thier partner because they would be familiar with it, but then there is no-one they can turn to to look after the kids etc, unless the male partner decides not to race.
I wish I could persuade my wife to have a go, but she's just not inetrested. She comes along and supports though which I guess I should be happy about.
sparkey
sparkey said: I think the problem that a lot of female drivers may have (just my thoughts) is that they are introduced to the sport at a participatory level my thier male partners who are already racing, such that they come to the race and help out and get involved when they can and look after the kids and get a barbie going etc. Then when they rightly want to have a go it is probable they would want to race in the same series as thier partner because they would be familiar with it, but then there is no-one they can turn to to look after the kids etc, unless the male partner decides not to race.
Sparkey, I think you're almost right here. A lot of women do come into motorsport as support for their partners. But they don't then progress to driving in most cases mainly because once they've made the tea, looked after the kids, etc. a few times, this is what's "expected" of them and if they suggest driving for a change, eyebrows are raised and they just never get to drive. Also, it could be a cause of some friction in the household if she turns out to be a much better driver than he is - certainly many of the auto club lads I mentioned earlier would be mortified if their ladyfriends turned out to be better drivers than they were.
That said, I think having a partner who's also into racing can be a big advantage when it comes to "getting a foot in the door" of racing if you're female, as long as you don't make the mistake of always being the one to do the non-racing jobs.
First things first (before there's a clamour to flame me). I'm not a feminist, and I know bugger all about motorsport. I do know a lot about being a woman breaking in to a male industry though.
All I can do here is apply my own experience, and wonder if it's happening in sport on any scale (motorsport is very competitive, and it wouldn't surprise me). When I first went to work in a foundry (only 15 years ago), the blokes all downed tools, did a walkout and refused to work until I was removed. I would never have made it if one of the fitters hadn't taken me under his wing and steered me through the crossfire. Since then I've been called from a pig to a dog, told to F off home and look after the kids, been offered jobs in return for sex (more than once), accused of shagging my way up the ladder etc etc. It's a minority, and it might not be PH-type people, but it has happened and it does still happen - I was even told by someone just a couple of weeks ago 'oh you wouldn't be able to handle my car love, it's not really a car for a woman'
, so there are people around who think that way.
This isn't a whinge btw, I chose my job and I don't expect to get anything unless it's on merit. I have never ever played the discrimination or harassment card. I would still rather work with men than women. I guess what I'm saying is that if something like that did happen to a shy girl who was really good, then she might think it wasn't worth the hassle and give up, which would be a shame (SGirl says she did, and she is some tough cookie).
So, stop rambling woman and come to the point!!
1 If the British Women Racing Drivers Club are just looking for a route to give little princesses an easier time than boys, then I have no time for that.
2) If it means preferential funding for girls, then I'll be with you chaps at the gates complaining. Don't even start me on women-only shortlists for government elections.
3) If they want to 'appoint' mentors to guide girls through, then I don't have a problem, but do it for the boys too (OTOH, you usually find that the talented ones with a good attitude will be looked after anyway)
4) Women-only races? Couldn't care less one way or the other - aren't they already catered for by novices races though? It's a market economy; if no-one wants to watch them, they'll soon die.
5) Provision for women motorsport spectators???? What the hell do they need short of a loo? Speaking for myself, if there isn't a ladies I just use the gents - we share a bathroom at home, what's the problem?
I'll go and get back in my box now.
All I can do here is apply my own experience, and wonder if it's happening in sport on any scale (motorsport is very competitive, and it wouldn't surprise me). When I first went to work in a foundry (only 15 years ago), the blokes all downed tools, did a walkout and refused to work until I was removed. I would never have made it if one of the fitters hadn't taken me under his wing and steered me through the crossfire. Since then I've been called from a pig to a dog, told to F off home and look after the kids, been offered jobs in return for sex (more than once), accused of shagging my way up the ladder etc etc. It's a minority, and it might not be PH-type people, but it has happened and it does still happen - I was even told by someone just a couple of weeks ago 'oh you wouldn't be able to handle my car love, it's not really a car for a woman'
, so there are people around who think that way. This isn't a whinge btw, I chose my job and I don't expect to get anything unless it's on merit. I have never ever played the discrimination or harassment card. I would still rather work with men than women. I guess what I'm saying is that if something like that did happen to a shy girl who was really good, then she might think it wasn't worth the hassle and give up, which would be a shame (SGirl says she did, and she is some tough cookie).
So, stop rambling woman and come to the point!!
1 If the British Women Racing Drivers Club are just looking for a route to give little princesses an easier time than boys, then I have no time for that.
2) If it means preferential funding for girls, then I'll be with you chaps at the gates complaining. Don't even start me on women-only shortlists for government elections.
3) If they want to 'appoint' mentors to guide girls through, then I don't have a problem, but do it for the boys too (OTOH, you usually find that the talented ones with a good attitude will be looked after anyway)
4) Women-only races? Couldn't care less one way or the other - aren't they already catered for by novices races though? It's a market economy; if no-one wants to watch them, they'll soon die.
5) Provision for women motorsport spectators???? What the hell do they need short of a loo? Speaking for myself, if there isn't a ladies I just use the gents - we share a bathroom at home, what's the problem?
I'll go and get back in my box now.
Rude Girl - Spot on 
as always
Know what you mean about breaking into male dominated industries - I went into the property industry over 20 years ago which was a closed shop to women and believe me there was a lot more discrimination then. But if you want to achieve something bad enough you will - no matter what obstacles you have to overcome.
as always Know what you mean about breaking into male dominated industries - I went into the property industry over 20 years ago which was a closed shop to women and believe me there was a lot more discrimination then. But if you want to achieve something bad enough you will - no matter what obstacles you have to overcome.
Rude Girl Big M S Girl Where in hell do you come from??? It sounds like a mixture of Mad Max and the Victorian Age. I have competed in single seater racing and sidecar racing and there have been women in all those sports. They were welcomed and treated the same as all competitors. Their abilities ranged from slow to evil quick, their relationship with the rest of the competitors was never affected by their abilities. I don't wish to dis-credit what you are saying, but I can assure you those stories would never materialise in British circuit racing.
Rude girl well done! I'm all for women taken what ever roll they want its a fre country.
However the point is that if the foundry were you worked was all female would you produce as much product as one that was all men?
The point I am trying to make probably badly is that we will only know how good women drivers are if they compete with men! on equal terms that is and that means no help in getting to the driving. work your way up like men have to.
I would love to participate in motorsport. Because I get payed little and work long hours I cannot. I dont think its right that women women should be given an advantage.
If women are just as interested in cars as men could any one tell me how many women are registered on this site? is it 50/50 ? I dont think so.
ps I have 2 daughters I support them in whatever they chose and I wouldnt want them to be helped "just" cos their women.
However the point is that if the foundry were you worked was all female would you produce as much product as one that was all men?
The point I am trying to make probably badly is that we will only know how good women drivers are if they compete with men! on equal terms that is and that means no help in getting to the driving. work your way up like men have to.
I would love to participate in motorsport. Because I get payed little and work long hours I cannot. I dont think its right that women women should be given an advantage.
If women are just as interested in cars as men could any one tell me how many women are registered on this site? is it 50/50 ? I dont think so.
ps I have 2 daughters I support them in whatever they chose and I wouldnt want them to be helped "just" cos their women.
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