Budget Lowering
Discussion
On my quest for the ultimate handling Mini! On a bit of a budget though.
Is it worth/Can i fit a set of Hi-Los's on their own without fitting new dampers or is it worth waiting a bit, and getting a decent set of adjustables Dampers and HiLo's and putting it all on at the same time?
Cheers
Is it worth/Can i fit a set of Hi-Los's on their own without fitting new dampers or is it worth waiting a bit, and getting a decent set of adjustables Dampers and HiLo's and putting it all on at the same time?
Cheers
Thinking along the same lines myself - frisked minispeed's website last night they have a full set of hi-lo's (or their own equivalent) adjustable tie rods and 1.5 deg neg camber bottom arms all for 90 quid - now I dislike the appearance of advertising & don't know what quality component s but seems a steal to me -keep std height until budget allows & then buy some decent shorter travel shocks - alternatively you could always shave down the trumpets a bit (carefully & mindful of the adjustment ratio - I think this is approx 5:1 at the back & 3:1 at the front - please don't rely on that though memory a bit rusty, others will correct me no doubt. Resorted to careful trial & error when I last did it - requires patience as when you've compressed front springs & taken out trumpet, remembered that copperslip is wonderful stuff and that you should have used some on the balljoint shaft when you last had it apart, shaved a little off, put back in with some copperslip this time & released tension, added those little essentials - a wheel for instance & put back on the ground it takes a while for things to settle again ! Remenbering that your average aged mini will usually sit lower on the o/s - probably best to measure top of tyre to wing on all four wheels, and take off precisely equal amounts of both f & r trumpets - otherwise this will disguise worn components and when they're eventually replaced the game starts all over again - now I've written this just buy some hilo's!!!!!
For ordinary road use lowering is not necessarily the best way to achieve optimum handling. Remember, handling is NOT the same as roadholding.
On the road the reduction in available suspension travel when lowered can be very detrimental to handling and over the 45 years I've been driving and rallying Minis the best handling ones are at standard ride height with better damping, but not over-damped, a bit of negative camber on the front and accurately set camber and toe-in on the rear. The rear is the critical area actually as most Minis have positive camber on the rear due to sub-frame manufacturing tolerances.
For rough roads the ride height needs to go up a bit, maybe 1/2" all round and for very smooth tarmac, like on a race track, you can come down a bit.
Really lowered Minis don't handle because when you hit a bump in a bend the suspension 'bottoms out' and the car won't steer properly or keep its tyres in best contact with the road surface.
My recommendation is to get a decent set of adjustable dampers, some 1.5 deg neg bottom arms, poly-flex front suspension bushes and solid front sub-frame mounts, set the rear wheels to toe-in 1/8" and set zero to 0.5 deg neg camber on the rear wheels. Make sure the ride height is the same all round and at standard height as in the workshop manual.If you can go to 10" wheels that improves the handling as well, but of course you have to change to Mk 1 Cooper 'S' brakes which is very expensive. The worst handling wheels are the 13", but they are really just for looks not performance - personally I think they don't improve the look at all and they are certainly detrimental to performance (and to wheel bearing life, but that's another matter).
On the road the reduction in available suspension travel when lowered can be very detrimental to handling and over the 45 years I've been driving and rallying Minis the best handling ones are at standard ride height with better damping, but not over-damped, a bit of negative camber on the front and accurately set camber and toe-in on the rear. The rear is the critical area actually as most Minis have positive camber on the rear due to sub-frame manufacturing tolerances.
For rough roads the ride height needs to go up a bit, maybe 1/2" all round and for very smooth tarmac, like on a race track, you can come down a bit.
Really lowered Minis don't handle because when you hit a bump in a bend the suspension 'bottoms out' and the car won't steer properly or keep its tyres in best contact with the road surface.
My recommendation is to get a decent set of adjustable dampers, some 1.5 deg neg bottom arms, poly-flex front suspension bushes and solid front sub-frame mounts, set the rear wheels to toe-in 1/8" and set zero to 0.5 deg neg camber on the rear wheels. Make sure the ride height is the same all round and at standard height as in the workshop manual.If you can go to 10" wheels that improves the handling as well, but of course you have to change to Mk 1 Cooper 'S' brakes which is very expensive. The worst handling wheels are the 13", but they are really just for looks not performance - personally I think they don't improve the look at all and they are certainly detrimental to performance (and to wheel bearing life, but that's another matter).
Why do you want to lower it / do you really need to? What wheels do you have? My car was originally on 12s so when it was changed to 10s the hilos came in handy to get the right ride hide for 10s. You can fit the hilos and keep them at standard height for now, but you might be far better off fitting better dampers.
On a budget I would do the following in this sequence:
1. If on 13" wheels, fit 12" and no wider than 5" with good rubber (165/60x12 Yoko or Falken). Set tyre pressures to about 33 psi all round.
2. Use solid subframe mountings.
3. Set the rear suspension to the figures I've quoted above and the ride height to 'standard' all round by use of shims/washers.
4. Fit 1.5 deg neg front arms and poly-flex bushes.
5. Fit adjustable dampers at slightly harder settings from standard. Don't set it too hard or it will 'patter' on bumpy surfaces which can lead to understeer in bumpy corners.
6. Make sure your brake pads are up the the increased 'progress' along the road.
That will really make it handle, optimise the roadholding for fast road use and just be 'very nice to drive'. You will find that you need better seats as well to hold you in and full harness belts, such will be the improvement.
1. If on 13" wheels, fit 12" and no wider than 5" with good rubber (165/60x12 Yoko or Falken). Set tyre pressures to about 33 psi all round.
2. Use solid subframe mountings.
3. Set the rear suspension to the figures I've quoted above and the ride height to 'standard' all round by use of shims/washers.
4. Fit 1.5 deg neg front arms and poly-flex bushes.
5. Fit adjustable dampers at slightly harder settings from standard. Don't set it too hard or it will 'patter' on bumpy surfaces which can lead to understeer in bumpy corners.
6. Make sure your brake pads are up the the increased 'progress' along the road.
That will really make it handle, optimise the roadholding for fast road use and just be 'very nice to drive'. You will find that you need better seats as well to hold you in and full harness belts, such will be the improvement.
Cooperman said:
On a budget I would do the following in this sequence:
1. If on 13" wheels, fit 12" and no wider than 5" with good rubber (165/60x12 Yoko or Falken). Set tyre pressures to about 33 psi all round.
2. Use solid subframe mountings.
3. Set the rear suspension to the figures I've quoted above and the ride height to 'standard' all round by use of shims/washers.
4. Fit 1.5 deg neg front arms and poly-flex bushes.
5. Fit adjustable dampers at slightly harder settings from standard. Don't set it too hard or it will 'patter' on bumpy surfaces which can lead to understeer in bumpy corners.
6. Make sure your brake pads are up the the increased 'progress' along the road.
That will really make it handle, optimise the roadholding for fast road use and just be 'very nice to drive'. You will find that you need better seats as well to hold you in and full harness belts, such will be the improvement.
Believe everything this man says (Hi Peter)
He set my mini up for me after a "Ex Racing driver" set it up. This bloke seemed to think it was ok for the car to be bouncing of the arches!!!!
Peter raised the suspension and softened the shocks and changed the rear camber and my word did it make the bestest handling car the world ever!!!!!
Ok, I set my shocks up via the ratio of weight on a front/back. So, the back is looser. Anyway, the thing is set up dead stiff at the front and "that ratio" backed off at the back, it goes around corners like it's on rails but if you hit a bump 
you nearly get your spine put through your skull.
What sort of percentages of stiffness are you lot running front and rear?
Interested in 10" 165 tyre pressures? (Usually run cross plies dead hard!)
The stiff front combined with rear anti-roll bar makes wet, lumpy corners a bit exciting. I can sometimes pull a spectacularly quick 180!
I have adjustable camber and set it up in the same ratio as the weight. Front about 1.75 and can't remember what the back is but my inclinometer is accurate to about 4dp! That's worth a try.
Thought about running more rear camber (+ve) to loosen the back up more or fit harder tyres. Anyone any ideas? Tyres were about 20PSI front and something similar ratio wise at the back. Can't remember what. That seemed to work well. The idea being to get the back to grip better on cornering (3 wheeled). They say ARB's are to degrip the rear wheel but what I'm trying to do is top get it cornering flatter whilst maximising outer rear tyre grip.
I reckon there is a bit of sense in my ideas, but that's just mucking about and it seems to work.
you nearly get your spine put through your skull. What sort of percentages of stiffness are you lot running front and rear?
Interested in 10" 165 tyre pressures? (Usually run cross plies dead hard!)
The stiff front combined with rear anti-roll bar makes wet, lumpy corners a bit exciting. I can sometimes pull a spectacularly quick 180!
I have adjustable camber and set it up in the same ratio as the weight. Front about 1.75 and can't remember what the back is but my inclinometer is accurate to about 4dp! That's worth a try.
Thought about running more rear camber (+ve) to loosen the back up more or fit harder tyres. Anyone any ideas? Tyres were about 20PSI front and something similar ratio wise at the back. Can't remember what. That seemed to work well. The idea being to get the back to grip better on cornering (3 wheeled). They say ARB's are to degrip the rear wheel but what I'm trying to do is top get it cornering flatter whilst maximising outer rear tyre grip.
I reckon there is a bit of sense in my ideas, but that's just mucking about and it seems to work.
DodgyDave said:
On a budget I would do the following in this sequence:
1. If on 13" wheels, fit 12" and no wider than 5" with good rubber (165/60x12 Yoko or Falken). Set tyre pressures to about 33 psi all round.
2. Use solid subframe mountings.
3. Set the rear suspension to the figures I've quoted above and the ride height to 'standard' all round by use of shims/washers.
4. Fit 1.5 deg neg front arms and poly-flex bushes.
5. Fit adjustable dampers at slightly harder settings from standard. Don't set it too hard or it will 'patter' on bumpy surfaces which can lead to understeer in bumpy corners.
6. Make sure your brake pads are up the the increased 'progress' along the road.
That will really make it handle, optimise the roadholding for fast road use and just be 'very nice to drive'. You will find that you need better seats as well to hold you in and full harness belts, such will be the improvement.
Believe everything this man says (Hi Peter)
He set my mini up for me after a "Ex Racing driver" set it up. This bloke seemed to think it was ok for the car to be bouncing of the arches!!!!
Peter raised the suspension and softened the shocks and changed the rear camber and my word did it make the bestest handling car the world ever!!!!!
Hi Dave,
Good to see you on here again.
I hope the little car is still going well.
Peter
Its good to be back Peter , Its funny I see quite a few people from here now in the S forums.
Hopefully my little mini will be running again soon haha.
You may remember me on here last year asking about electric problems!
Well she still isn't going since then!
I've eliminated lots of possible causes, I know think its got to be a simple wiring problem. I just haven't had the time or the want to pull all the loom out!
So the plan is once I can get the trailer back I'm taking it to a auto electrician. He seemed like a good knowledgeable fella and even said he could put a cost limit on his work and once he reaches it he will call me.
I just want it running now, miss the car allot lol.
Plus I'm putting the S up for sale very soon and buying a chimp which will be supercharged!!!
Cant imagine driving anything boring anymore and wouldn't want to do 50 miles a day all week at about 10mpg haha.
I've also got quite a bit of body repairs still to do (it just goes on and on)
I've replaced the old rusty rear valence. I've bought a door which I need to spray before it goes on and I also need to re-spray the bonnet after some lovely person scratched f**k you on the bonnet.
I must of pissed someone off somewhere, oh well at least I get to practice spraying.
How you doing in the rally's? Still using the black one?
Dave
, Its funny I see quite a few people from here now in the S forums. Hopefully my little mini will be running again soon haha.
You may remember me on here last year asking about electric problems!
Well she still isn't going since then!
I've eliminated lots of possible causes, I know think its got to be a simple wiring problem. I just haven't had the time or the want to pull all the loom out!
So the plan is once I can get the trailer back I'm taking it to a auto electrician. He seemed like a good knowledgeable fella and even said he could put a cost limit on his work and once he reaches it he will call me.
I just want it running now, miss the car allot lol.
Plus I'm putting the S up for sale very soon and buying a chimp which will be supercharged!!!
Cant imagine driving anything boring anymore and wouldn't want to do 50 miles a day all week at about 10mpg haha.
I've also got quite a bit of body repairs still to do (it just goes on and on)
I've replaced the old rusty rear valence. I've bought a door which I need to spray before it goes on and I also need to re-spray the bonnet after some lovely person scratched f**k you on the bonnet.
I must of pissed someone off somewhere, oh well at least I get to practice spraying.
How you doing in the rally's? Still using the black one?
Dave
I sold the black Enduro rally Car to 'Rougeleo' and my Enduro car is now a Rover 214Si. However, the Cooper 'S' will be out again on the East Anglian Classic at the end of April and I'm just finishing the prep now. The servo jammed on when I started the car with its completely rebuilt engine & box, so I've literally just got back from Mini Spares with a new one.
Following the question about front & rear relative damper sitffness, I do this by 'feel' really, starting with the rear about 66% os stiff as the frone.Then I drive on a bumpy track and on a good bit of tarmac and adjust to what suits me best. On 165/70x10 tarmac tyres, like Yoko 008 or Falken I usually use 34 psi all round. With the knobblies for gravel I go for about the same unless it's going to be very muddy in which case I go down a bit, say 30 to 31 psi. I don't run an ARB as I always think it makes a rally car a bit too twitchy in bumpy bends, although Peter Horsborough does run one on his similar spec car and is quite happy with it. With regard to rear wheel camber I always set zero to 0.5 deg negative and this seems to work for me.
I guess for racing on smooth tracks low ride height combined with neg camber front and rear plus a rear ARB would be a good set-up, but you'll be on racing tyres which is a factor to be considered.
For any sort of road use I think the set-up I noted a few posts up is the best compromise, especially if you're on a budget. The only other thing I might have mentioned is that the rear wheels should toe-in by between 1/16" and 1/8". This can also change to a zero toe-in on an out-and-out racing car. AS the front will be well tied together with poly-flex bushes, etc, the front track can be set to straight ahead and this is best.
It may be just me, but I do feel that the key to a lot of Mini handling problems lies in the rear suspension settings.
I'd be interested to hear others views/experiences with this.
Following the question about front & rear relative damper sitffness, I do this by 'feel' really, starting with the rear about 66% os stiff as the frone.Then I drive on a bumpy track and on a good bit of tarmac and adjust to what suits me best. On 165/70x10 tarmac tyres, like Yoko 008 or Falken I usually use 34 psi all round. With the knobblies for gravel I go for about the same unless it's going to be very muddy in which case I go down a bit, say 30 to 31 psi. I don't run an ARB as I always think it makes a rally car a bit too twitchy in bumpy bends, although Peter Horsborough does run one on his similar spec car and is quite happy with it. With regard to rear wheel camber I always set zero to 0.5 deg negative and this seems to work for me.
I guess for racing on smooth tracks low ride height combined with neg camber front and rear plus a rear ARB would be a good set-up, but you'll be on racing tyres which is a factor to be considered.
For any sort of road use I think the set-up I noted a few posts up is the best compromise, especially if you're on a budget. The only other thing I might have mentioned is that the rear wheels should toe-in by between 1/16" and 1/8". This can also change to a zero toe-in on an out-and-out racing car. AS the front will be well tied together with poly-flex bushes, etc, the front track can be set to straight ahead and this is best.
It may be just me, but I do feel that the key to a lot of Mini handling problems lies in the rear suspension settings.
I'd be interested to hear others views/experiences with this.
Messing around with chassis setup on a road car is very much a compromise. When you lower a mini you are also lowering its roll centre due to the movement of its virtual roll centre. But the centre of gravity remains the same this can be corrected but involves unnecessary expense for a road car. Fitting Hilos can get you into one hell of a mess with corner weights and create some very undesirable handling. For a road car keep it simple, if you feel you have to lower it just a modest amount 1" and forget anti roll bars these are for the circuit only, correctly set dampers and tyre pressures (we use AVO dampers developed for racing and set up on the dyno) are the rule for road cars. For racing we set the car up so when you lift off the throttle the car starts to oversteer and the only way to stop it oversteering is to give it more throttle for perfect neutral drift giving maximum exit speed from corner, useless for a road car. My advice is if your not sure what your doing don't do it or take it to someone who does know and can prove it
[quote=cooperman]I sold the black Enduro rally Car to 'Rougeleo' and my Enduro car is now a Rover 214Si. However, the Cooper 'S' will be out again on the East Anglian Classic at the end of April and I'm just finishing the prep now. The servo jammed on when I started the car with its completely rebuilt engine & box, so I've literally just got back from Mini Spares with a new one.
quote]
Ill never forget our quick (literally) little outing in your cooper S!
Fantastic noise and looks.
How’s Chris's mini, the lovely old original one I see the on the same visit?
Sorry about the hijack
quote]
Ill never forget our quick (literally) little outing in your cooper S!
Fantastic noise and looks.
How’s Chris's mini, the lovely old original one I see the on the same visit?
Sorry about the hijack
Hi Dave,
Chris is fine and has loads of Minis in at present, including 'neil8p's' car for a lot of bodywork.
My 'S' is going well again after just over a year off the road with sick transmission and my building the Rover 214 rally car. It's 1310 cc now with virtually everything new in engine and box. New servo is fine so brakes work again.
Threads about handling are always so interesting and I don't know about you but I'm always amazed at the lack of awareness of the difference between road-holding and handling. As 'selby' says so correctly, a race set-up is useless for the road. In fact a good rally set-up, with as much suspension travel as possible and firm but compliant damping, coupled with accurate angular settings of the right ,works great for road cars as well. The need for the suspension to have enough travel to do real work in supporting and controlling the dynamic loadings during driving on ordinary roads is what is most necessary and one will never get this from lowering down almost onto the bump stops then stiffening up the damper rates in an attempt to prevent bottoming.
As with all things Mini, the key is to determine what you want to use the car for prior to deciding on the set-up to use, be it engine tune, diff ratio, suspension setting or anything else.
Those Mini periodicals have a lot to answer for with their articles about horribly set-up cars and the wild and silly specs some folks have!
Chris is fine and has loads of Minis in at present, including 'neil8p's' car for a lot of bodywork.
My 'S' is going well again after just over a year off the road with sick transmission and my building the Rover 214 rally car. It's 1310 cc now with virtually everything new in engine and box. New servo is fine so brakes work again.
Threads about handling are always so interesting and I don't know about you but I'm always amazed at the lack of awareness of the difference between road-holding and handling. As 'selby' says so correctly, a race set-up is useless for the road. In fact a good rally set-up, with as much suspension travel as possible and firm but compliant damping, coupled with accurate angular settings of the right ,works great for road cars as well. The need for the suspension to have enough travel to do real work in supporting and controlling the dynamic loadings during driving on ordinary roads is what is most necessary and one will never get this from lowering down almost onto the bump stops then stiffening up the damper rates in an attempt to prevent bottoming.
As with all things Mini, the key is to determine what you want to use the car for prior to deciding on the set-up to use, be it engine tune, diff ratio, suspension setting or anything else.
Those Mini periodicals have a lot to answer for with their articles about horribly set-up cars and the wild and silly specs some folks have!
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