Pistonheads Thatcher's Children...
Discussion
Let me be clear - I am not a committed socialist, an ideologue or a conservative. Neither am I a Liberal Democrat.
I vote for whatever party I believe is going to do the best/least bad job according to their record and policies.
I abhor unnescessary government and waste, but I equally despise uncaring selfish right wing politics. I am all for tough actions on our criminal and anti-social elements, and a curtailing of the welfare state where genuinely warranted.
I guess I tread the middle ground.
So, I have been suprised by the rabidly right wing posts on here of late. There are a number of totally committed ideologues that seem to reject and refute any "socialist" ideas, principles or values out of hand. Equally, any policies propounded by the right wing must de facto be correct.
Many seem to think of the 1980's as some "golden time", I must admit I supported the Thatcher Government at first, but become dissillusioned and now view that time quite differently with the benefit of hindsight. I certainly agree that the first few years of her Goverment were necessary, but she quickly became a very damaging force in our country.
Much of the anger seems to stem from personal values of "I want this, I want that.... and provided I am ok, sod the rest."
So to all the Thatcher's Children on here I say be honest - in your opinion has everything Blair and his government done been bad? Is everything the Conservatives have done good?
I would prefer a reasonable and good humoured debate that avoids some of the aggressive shouts of "pinko" as if it is some kind of insult.
Over to you.
I vote for whatever party I believe is going to do the best/least bad job according to their record and policies.
I abhor unnescessary government and waste, but I equally despise uncaring selfish right wing politics. I am all for tough actions on our criminal and anti-social elements, and a curtailing of the welfare state where genuinely warranted.
I guess I tread the middle ground.
So, I have been suprised by the rabidly right wing posts on here of late. There are a number of totally committed ideologues that seem to reject and refute any "socialist" ideas, principles or values out of hand. Equally, any policies propounded by the right wing must de facto be correct.
Many seem to think of the 1980's as some "golden time", I must admit I supported the Thatcher Government at first, but become dissillusioned and now view that time quite differently with the benefit of hindsight. I certainly agree that the first few years of her Goverment were necessary, but she quickly became a very damaging force in our country.
Much of the anger seems to stem from personal values of "I want this, I want that.... and provided I am ok, sod the rest."
So to all the Thatcher's Children on here I say be honest - in your opinion has everything Blair and his government done been bad? Is everything the Conservatives have done good?
I would prefer a reasonable and good humoured debate that avoids some of the aggressive shouts of "pinko" as if it is some kind of insult.
Over to you.
I'd be prepared to concede to some more caring socialist ideals, if the majority of those that would benefit from it were doing so through genuine need or hardship.
The Welfare state was supposed to be a safety net. 20% of some communities off on incapacity benefit? Grim, depressing, I sympathise but the "it ain't worth trying to improve my lot" attitude exhibited is both sad and ultimately damaging to those that really are in need. Those in real need are simply given short thrift because of those without any get up and go.
The Welfare state was supposed to be a safety net. 20% of some communities off on incapacity benefit? Grim, depressing, I sympathise but the "it ain't worth trying to improve my lot" attitude exhibited is both sad and ultimately damaging to those that really are in need. Those in real need are simply given short thrift because of those without any get up and go.
I agree with the sentiments of your post Ted. Nobody should get a free lunch that extends to years. This is not a problem purely as a result of socialist policies, but has been festering for a long time in Britain. Any party that really gets to grips with this would be doing the country a service.
My politics are a complete mish-mash of different views but I do think that to many people, PH fora must sometimes seem very extreme. Personally, I'm not that bothered and even find it a bit funny when I see one of the "God, I hate Nu Labour, I'm leaving the country" threads that are based on complete nonsense. E.g. the window cleaners banned from going up ladders thread.
There is a danger though that an "extreme" image could distract from the sensible arguments (of which there are many).
There is a danger though that an "extreme" image could distract from the sensible arguments (of which there are many).
minicity said:
My politics are a complete mish-mash of different views but I do think that to many people, PH fora must sometimes seem very extreme. Personally, I'm not that bothered and even find it a bit funny when I see one of the "God, I hate Nu Labour, I'm leaving the country" threads that are based on complete nonsense. E.g. the window cleaners banned from going up ladders thread.
There is a danger though that an "extreme" image could distract from the sensible arguments (of which there are many).
the thread wasn't about him going up ladders...it was about him spitting on my window
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes
anonymous said:
[redacted]
No far from it.
I despised the 'sod you' attitude of the Thatcher era, and certainly have never viewed it as a 'golden age' - I live close by an area where there used to be a mining industry. I have always had something of a social conscience, indeed many here would regard me as a 'pinko' I'm sure, and it is for this very reason that I detest the current shower, my social conscience dictates that we should help the less able in society, but the policies of new labour have raised scrounging to an artform and all at the expense of those who feel the need to help themselves. Add in their cavalier attitude to 'democracy' and the creation of more and more at best pointless and at worst counter productive and authoritarian legislation, and it is clear that I have no representation of my views in Westminster. For my entire voting life I have been in a situation where I've felt that there was no-one that I could vote for - I've always had to vote against those least sympathetic to my views. It's a damn poor situation, and I'm not at all sure that it's going to get any better - Cameron's Conservatives have my support at the moment, but that's mostly on the grounds that I can't see how they could be any worse.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Must say I agree with you. There's been a lot of angst and downright bitterness here from folks who, by all means, don't have it that bad or at least shouldn't.
In my experience for every lowlife on the dole there is one genuine, hard working person that can barely keep their head above the water because of circumstances out of their control, and one greedy, incompetent, highly paid fat cat who was fortunate enough to be able to jump on a corporate or governemental gravy train and has heen lurking off the fruits of people who do create genuine added value, ever since.
Hmmm... any chances that examples of the latter species would be wasting all of their time by posting on message boards?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Conservatives under Thatcher:
+ privatisation of BL, BT, ...
+ more efficient public services...
- ...but not neccesarily better ones.
- last years of Thatcher & the Major era were aimless
Labour under Blair:
+ independent BoE, taking interest rate decisions away from politicians
+ slightly better provisions for the elderly and young
- higher national & local taxation
- wasteful quangos & non-productive civil servants will be a hallnark of the Blair era
that's all i can remember right now.
oh yeah...
+ extension of licensing hours
scared but happy said:
I see more Yuppies with that arrogant attitude now than I ever did in the 80's. I mean how many blokes in their 20's do you know driving 'flash' cars. But I expect Labour has a new word for them.
Possibly this is because more people now enjoy a higher standard of living than they did in the 1980's. Funny that.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
No, there have been a few good decisions, giving the BOE more independence, and hiring more Nurses and teachers for one. I just think 90% of their policies are either misguided or motivated by malice.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Not at all.
I fully embrace the economic liberalism that Thatcher brought but dislike the remnants of Conservative moralising and paternalism.
Nick P said:
My politics are a complete mish-mash of different views but I do think that to many people, PH fora must sometimes seem very extreme. Personally, I'm not that bothered and even find it a bit funny when I see one of the "God, I hate Nu Labour, I'm leaving the country" threads that are based on complete nonsense. E.g. the window cleaners banned from going up ladders thread.
There is a danger though that an "extreme" image could distract from the sensible arguments (of which there are many).
the thread wasn't about him going up ladders...it was about him spitting on my window
Fair point. It's just that the thread seemed to turn into a load of nonsense about ladders being banned.
I think you've got to consider the PH demographic first. The majority are going to be professionals who would naturally vote towards the right. Then you have the issue of disenfranchisement. Labour polled less votes than the conservatives, yet they managed to retain power. Now that stings. So you have a majority who don't support a government who are runing the country in a way that goes against our principals.
I have no problem with a state provided safety net, I've even had to use it myself through injury and during the recession. But, and here's why I suspect the majority of us object, we pay enough into the system. Taxation has increased massively under Labour despite their efforts to hide it and yet public services have fallen. The roads are crumbling, you can't get to see a GP, you wait longer in casualty and yet we are constantly fed massaged statistics to try and persuade us things are better.
If we are to see an improvement in social services it has to be funded by stripping away the layers of non-jobs this government has created and funded through increased efficiency. We need a ruthless cull in the public sector. I don't think it's reasonable to expect the heavily taxed middle income bracket to pay for any improvements.
And yes, you're a pinko
I have no problem with a state provided safety net, I've even had to use it myself through injury and during the recession. But, and here's why I suspect the majority of us object, we pay enough into the system. Taxation has increased massively under Labour despite their efforts to hide it and yet public services have fallen. The roads are crumbling, you can't get to see a GP, you wait longer in casualty and yet we are constantly fed massaged statistics to try and persuade us things are better.
If we are to see an improvement in social services it has to be funded by stripping away the layers of non-jobs this government has created and funded through increased efficiency. We need a ruthless cull in the public sector. I don't think it's reasonable to expect the heavily taxed middle income bracket to pay for any improvements.
And yes, you're a pinko
Socialism as a means in which the Community cares for its members is no bad thing at all. Socialism as a means to achieve redistribution utterly regardless of merit or need is philosphically wrong - in my opinion.
I believe in a meritocratic society. People seldom understand what this truly means. It means a society in which each and every citizen is given the chance to rise to their potential...and to benefit from that potential as far as is possible.
This does not mean no taxes...as each citizen, regardless of background, must be given the chance to achieve potential. This requires a lot of "social" provision. Totally free education, for example. Free health care. A key issue is that any and all benefits that society provides should be available to each and every citizen. No means testing. No class war. You're British: you get the lot.
As a corollary to that, however, a meriticracy strives to minimise most taxes. The key tax it would *not* minimise is Death Duties. Which need to be as close to 100% as is practicable. Without this we get dynasties forming in which there are individuals who benefit not through their own merit - but that of their forebears.
Its an odd philosophy, I accept. And an absolute meriticracy is a hard environment for those who, through no fault of their own, are unable to rise to their potential. So it needs to be tempered with some compassion.
I am also highly libertarian. I do not believe the State should involve itself or meddle with the lives of its citizens without extreme need. In fact - the majority of the state machinery should be devoting itself to ensuring that citizens are not bothered by other citizens who do not agree with them.
I tend to vote for the party that expresses ideals closest to these. To date this would appear to be the Conservatives - but there is by no means a direct match between this philosophy and that of the Conservative Party.
I believe in a meritocratic society. People seldom understand what this truly means. It means a society in which each and every citizen is given the chance to rise to their potential...and to benefit from that potential as far as is possible.
This does not mean no taxes...as each citizen, regardless of background, must be given the chance to achieve potential. This requires a lot of "social" provision. Totally free education, for example. Free health care. A key issue is that any and all benefits that society provides should be available to each and every citizen. No means testing. No class war. You're British: you get the lot.
As a corollary to that, however, a meriticracy strives to minimise most taxes. The key tax it would *not* minimise is Death Duties. Which need to be as close to 100% as is practicable. Without this we get dynasties forming in which there are individuals who benefit not through their own merit - but that of their forebears.
Its an odd philosophy, I accept. And an absolute meriticracy is a hard environment for those who, through no fault of their own, are unable to rise to their potential. So it needs to be tempered with some compassion.
I am also highly libertarian. I do not believe the State should involve itself or meddle with the lives of its citizens without extreme need. In fact - the majority of the state machinery should be devoting itself to ensuring that citizens are not bothered by other citizens who do not agree with them.
I tend to vote for the party that expresses ideals closest to these. To date this would appear to be the Conservatives - but there is by no means a direct match between this philosophy and that of the Conservative Party.
The slight flaw in the basic premise of this thread is that Blair is NOT a socialist, he's fairly right of centre. Brown is quite another matter.
But no, I can think of nothing that this government has done which is in any way worthy or has improved our lot as a nation in the long term. And very much that has damaged it.
Thatcher on the other hand did an awful lot to make the UK a viable enterprise. I can see there were many things that happened in that era that were unpalatable for some, but she gave the UK some tough love that it needed. The workforce was a bolshy teenager prone to sulks prior to the eighties. I think the "service economy" fostered by the Tories back then was a mistake, and the importance of manufacturing ever since has been seriously underestimated, so they didn't get everything right.
But no, I can think of nothing that this government has done which is in any way worthy or has improved our lot as a nation in the long term. And very much that has damaged it.
Thatcher on the other hand did an awful lot to make the UK a viable enterprise. I can see there were many things that happened in that era that were unpalatable for some, but she gave the UK some tough love that it needed. The workforce was a bolshy teenager prone to sulks prior to the eighties. I think the "service economy" fostered by the Tories back then was a mistake, and the importance of manufacturing ever since has been seriously underestimated, so they didn't get everything right.
Don said:
Socialism as a means in which the Community cares for its members is no bad thing at all. Socialism as a means to achieve redistribution utterly regardless of merit or need is philosphically wrong - in my opinion.
I believe in a meritocratic society. People seldom understand what this truly means. It means a society in which each and every citizen is given the chance to rise to their potential...and to benefit from that potential as far as is possible.
This does not mean no taxes...as each citizen, regardless of background, must be given the chance to achieve potential. This requires a lot of "social" provision. Totally free education, for example. Free health care. A key issue is that any and all benefits that society provides should be available to each and every citizen. No means testing. No class war. You're British: you get the lot.
As a corollary to that, however, a meriticracy strives to minimise most taxes. The key tax it would *not* minimise is Death Duties. Which need to be as close to 100% as is practicable. Without this we get dynasties forming in which there are individuals who benefit not through their own merit - but that of their forebears.
Its an odd philosophy, I accept. And an absolute meriticracy is a hard environment for those who, through no fault of their own, are unable to rise to their potential. So it needs to be tempered with some compassion.
I am also highly libertarian. I do not believe the State should involve itself or meddle with the lives of its citizens without extreme need. In fact - the majority of the state machinery should be devoting itself to ensuring that citizens are not bothered by other citizens who do not agree with them.
I tend to vote for the party that expresses ideals closest to these. To date this would appear to be the Conservatives - but there is by no means a direct match between this philosophy and that of the Conservative Party.
Interesting post Don
And though Thatcher is often condemned as making the Tories more right wing, she made them far more a meritocratic party than they were before.
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