X50 or not?

[Lagerlout]

Been looking at a few non X50 Turbo's, was wondering what the consensus was. Is it worth the extra £5k ish being charged for the X50 models? 30 BHP doesn't seem like much of a hike but is it more than just the extra BHP?

Would money be better spent on a DMS mod?

[rumplestiltskin]

DMS will give around 500bhp & 500lbs torque very reliably for around £2k and can be reversed at any time.
When you consider the standard 996TT internals can handle 600bhp with no modifications then you get some idea of the state of under-tune these cars are at.
The X50 also gives a nice extra chunk of torque along with larger turbo's and a minor mod to the gearbox.
Any warranty on a DMS chipped car will be void while the X50 is covered (under a Porsche warranty)

There are X50 cars out there & the ones I have seen don't actually seem much dearer than standard cars. With that in mind I would hunt down an X50 car.

R.

[damianc4s]

rumplestiltskin said:

DMS will give around 500bhp & 500lbs torque very reliably for around £2k and can be reversed at any time. When you consider the standard 996TT internals can handle 600bhp with no modifications then you get some idea of the state of under-tune these cars are at. The X50 also gives a nice extra chunk of torque along with larger turbo's and a minor mod to the gearbox. Any warranty on a DMS chipped car will be void while the X50 is covered (under a Porsche warranty) There are X50 cars out there & the ones I have seen don't actually seem much dearer than standard cars. With that in mind I would hunt down an X50 car. R.

I'd really like to see some of these claims.

[rumplestiltskin]

Thats less than a 20% increase on a standard Turbo, very much in line with gains on other Turbo cars by other tuners.

[dazren]

If you are going to modify the car further, start with the standard 420bhp car. If you are going to keep it standard get an X50 and keep the Porsche warranty going. (Note, I've been told the tiptronic gearbox can't cope with much past 500bhp without major modification)

Ref DMS figures. I don't know what they claim but the guy who runs DMS is a regular at VMAX, as are some of his customers. PHer 911 Habit's standard DMS modified car (standard K16 turbos) was matching my X50's top speed through the speed trap with a larger rear spoiler adding drag.

Speed trap readings here:

www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=223246&f=133&h=0

Also worth considering is Weltmeister in Silverstone, who have got Derestrictor's car to the stage it is running like a missile.

DAZ

>> Edited by dazren on Tuesday 27th December 17:54

[Weltmeister]

There is no doubt that a 420PS [413 BHP] 996 TT makes a great platform for tuning.
We really need to determine what makes a 996TT cover ground quickly:-

Traction & Torque are the two major contributors. BHP plays almost no part as max BHP is achieved at max rpm. So lets not get overly focussed on BHP claims.

Sadly though the standard fitment K16 turbos life will be shortened if they run at over 500BHP constantly, no matter what people claim.

A quality ECU reprogramme will gain you around 55 BHP. But more importantly a GOOD one should add at least 70 Lb-ft right in the heart of the rev range.

A quality free flowing exhaust and panel filter will add around 35 BHP and add a further 45 Lb-ft torque to the equation. We turned out a car recently at 495 BHP / 545 Lb-ft with the exact mods above on a 2004 996TT Manual.

However if you opt for X50 the gains are much more due the K16's being replaced by the much larger/stronger K24 turbos.

The same ECU reprogramme with only a panel filter will yield c525 BHP & 580 Lb-ft !!
Add in a free flow exhaust and this will jump to almost 550 BHP and certainly exceed 600 Lb-ft of torque. Sufficient that you will not wish to turn off the PASM.

Tiptronics are a no-no as the transmissions threshold is easily overcome with these mods.

Best of luck

Allan
Weltmeister Ltd
Silverstone

[bluesatin]

My question is what can you get away with without really upsetting the porsche warranty. Change of air filter or exhaust??? Ecu is one thing that is easy to use as an excuse but will the it invalidate warranty for not using N rated tyres.

[willr]

Surely the answer is that theoretically anything could void the warranty, but it has to be seen to be contributing to the failure. Tweaking the ECU could obviously lead to engine failure, but using a good quality non-N-spec tyre is unlikely to

The warranty doesn't seem to cover as much as it should, anyway - seems like every time I have something go wrong it gets covered as "goodwill" rather than warranty...

[deep]

Weltmeister said:

There is no doubt that a 420PS [413 BHP] 996 TT makes a great platform for tuning. We really need to determine what makes a 996TT cover ground quickly:- Traction & Torque are the two major contributors. BHP plays almost no part as max BHP is achieved at max rpm. So lets not get overly focussed on BHP claims. Sadly though the standard fitment K16 turbos life will be shortened if they run at over 500BHP constantly, no matter what people claim. A quality ECU reprogramme will gain you around 55 BHP. But more importantly a GOOD one should add at least 70 Lb-ft right in the heart of the rev range. A quality free flowing exhaust and panel filter will add around 35 BHP and add a further 45 Lb-ft torque to the equation. We turned out a car recently at 495 BHP / 545 Lb-ft with the exact mods above on a 2004 996TT Manual. However if you opt for X50 the gains are much more due the K16's being replaced by the much larger/stronger K24 turbos. The same ECU reprogramme with only a panel filter will yield c525 BHP & 580 Lb-ft !! Add in a free flow exhaust and this will jump to almost 550 BHP and certainly exceed 600 Lb-ft of torque. Sufficient that you will not wish to turn off the PASM. Tiptronics are a no-no as the transmissions threshold is easily overcome with these mods. Best of luck Allan Weltmeister Ltd Silverstone

Tiptronics are a no-no for which level of upgrade?

[Weltmeister]

You really dont want to go over 500 BHP & 545 Lb-ft on Tiptronics. An upgrade kit is avail for the g/box but I cannot recall the price or upper limit

Cheers

Allan

[egbert]

Allan-I have a millteck exhaust with 100 cell cats-a 470 bhp ecu and a panel filter on a manual TT. Will I notice any difference changing diverter valves or should I look to something else as my next mod?

Apologies for thread hijack.,

[egbert]

I would say go for the X50 BTW.

[Weltmeister]

The plastic DV's are crap. Go for billet ones and check all hoses & clamps for leaks. If you have K16's then thats about it for you, if however you have X50 or K24's "Youve only just begun"

Cheers

Allan

[ken993]

Alan

Only just begun !

I've just got a 996 Turbo S, it's a bit sluggish after the 993 but I'm going to resist all temptation to put it on your rolling road, 450 bhp should be enough to get me to the office in the morning.

Still got the 993, how is your new man on suspension upgrades ?

Ken

[Weltmeister]

Hi Ken
A little "Kiwi birdie" said you had a 996 Turbo "S". You know that resistance is futile and the need for a torque rush will eventually get to you. Andy Fearns [our new man] is highly skilled with Porsche suspension & brakes etc so feel free to pop in to discuss what you need.

FYI he recently did a 993TT with suspension/geometry & we sorted out the motor and exhaust, turbos ECU etc = 540.8 BHP & 600 ftlbs !!

Cheers

Allan

>> Edited by Weltmeister on Tuesday 27th December 23:34

[robbom3]

Another couple of questions along similar lines :

1) Is the clutch in the X50 cars the same as the "standard" turbo ??
2) How well does the clutch cope with 500 + BHP, and is there a stronger option available ??

[mogv8]

Only a personal view Lagerlout, as everyone has different priorities, but I went for the completely standard 420bhp engine when I bought my car. Right ot wrong my thinking was around longevity as I want it to do north of 100k miles without too much pain on the way and having an unstressed engine seemed the way to go.

I am (fairly) sure it will help resale at some future date as well, as a car that has done say 80k+ miles will probably be more appealing to buyers when they have been in standard tune and completely unmodified. Again not always the case.

Also a question for those who know:- Clearly the X50/S models are going to be quicker with both more torque and more bhp. So does anyone know why according to Porsche's own figures the mid range acceleration figures are better for the standard car ?? I assume it is due to either a different boost profile or maybe the increased turbo lag, but I always wondered ??

[deep]

Sorry to hijack, but it is relevant to the X50 choice. Alan, can you tell us once and for all whether ECU changes are detectable by OPC? Obviously I mean after putting it back to standard in the event of a claim.

[Weltmeister]

Just got up. The old is it detectable chestnut.

This depends on who you go to. Due to the public nature of BB's I will not go into too much detail but the ECU upgrade we offer leaves no trace of having been there. It comes with its own hand held device that simply attaches to the cars OBD port. The owner then has the choice of

1] Totally standard
2] Stage 1 modified
3] Stage 2 modified for track days--Only in conjunction with better fuel or Octane Booster. The ECU will detect if good fuel is in or not and react accordingly
4] Disable ECU for long term security--Airports etc

Cheers

Allan
Weltmeister Ltd
Silvestone

[silver993tt]

Weltmeister said:

Just got up. The old is it detectable chestnut. This depends on who you go to. Due to the public nature of BB's I will not go into too much detail but the ECU upgrade we offer leaves no trace of having been there. It comes with its own hand held device that simply attaches to the cars OBD port. The owner then has the choice of 1] Totally standard 2] Stage 1 modified 3] Stage 2 modified for track days--Only in conjunction with better fuel or Octane Booster. The ECU will detect if good fuel is in or not and react accordingly 4] Disable ECU for long term security--Airports etc Cheers Allan Weltmeister Ltd Silvestone

Is this available for 993 turbos?

>> Edited by silver993tt on Wednesday 28th December 10:39