BMW M3 Inline-6 engine into Ultima GTR

[omeyhomey]

hello everyone, this is my first post so i'll start off by saying howdie . I have always been a fan of the Ultima GTR and I would really like to do the Ultima GTR project but I would like to take a more unconventional route and drop in the E36 BMW M3 Inline-6 engine (engine code S50). I have a 1995 BMW M3 and I modified it to hell and back. I am now selling the M3 but i dont' want to let go of the heart and soul of that car. Yes i know its alot weaker than those big block american V8's but I don't care about the power level or cost. This is more about the feel and enjoyment of the car catered to my personal tastes. I know these BMW M3 engines like the back of my hand and I know exactly what modifications to do to make them powerful so I would like to be able to keep the engine, plus it has to be the best sounding naturally aspirated inline-6 ever made. Fully modified they can make anywhere from 300-310HP with a 7200rpm redline (sounds like 9000). I know Ultima GTR's used M3 motors to compete in racing a few years back and did farely sucessful but i cannot find any info on any street Ultima GTRs with an M3 engine or any info on it at all. Can anyone help me out? I would love to know as much about doing a swap like this as possible so if anyone could help out i'd truly appreciate it, thanks and have a nice day.

[omeyhomey]

oh i also was going to ask, will the Porsche transaxle fit the M3 engien, i hear alot of the BMW V8's mate up nicely and i believe most of the V8's and I6's use the same trany (such as new M3 and M5 use same getrag transmission). anyways thanks for your help guys.

[gtr-tt]

A straight six is much longer than a V8 so it wont fit very well. I don't say it can't be done but you will end up with modifications or a very back heavy car. If you go this route then turbocharge it. I have many friends that have done that and the M3 engine with a nice single turbo set up is an awesome engine.

[GTRene]

Maybe you can look at the BMW M1 engine gearbox set-up? in that car they use also a M power 6 in line in the back...and rearwheeldrive ofcorse...and a 5 speed ZF
In my car(BMW Z3 M coupe S54) sits a 10-2004 S54 E46 M3 engine that sounds even better then the E36 wich I also had a couple

GTRene

>> Edited by GTRene on Thursday 15th December 12:22

[omeyhomey]

The E36 inline 6 is very compact and i wouldn't be suprised if it was just as short as those big american big block V8's with auxilaries. not only that but the BMW inline 6 is much lighter, Its only 333lbs. I do not like the S54 b/c i do not like the way it sounds and I do not want to turbo charge it either. Also S50 will be EXTREMELY simple to swap over b/c it is OBD1 and is extremely easy to modify and an engine swap would e a piece of cake compared to the far more complext S52 and S54, so it would save alot of headache too. Plus i can get S54 power out of a S50 anyways... I may do twin screw supercharger (up to 350wheel HP) on it eventually but honestly I just want it naturally aspirated. Also if i chose to do dry sump system i can drop the engine even lower than the V8's into the chassis for improved weight distribution. Again I just want to know if its possible (obviously it is if they did it in competition) and if anyone has done it on a street version of the car. Im assuming a G50 adapter would need to be machined just like one for the Chevy V8 was. I don't want alot of HP in the car, I just want a fun car that is personalized to my tastes. I'd love to have the first and only M3 powered Street Ultima GTR. Any info that could help i would truly appreciate. thanks again guys.

[omeyhomey]

The BMW V12 is a pretty big unit so if that can fit i dont see why a BMW inline 6 can't. The engine fan can be taken off redecing its length quite abit and the auxilaries barely take up any space at all compared to the big ones on the Chevy V8. I will try to get some exact engine specs to see how it compares to the V8 size wise but i think it should be a good fit.

[GTRene]

The S50 is indeed a less complex engine to tune and to swap into another car and it also is a strong engine too and you can get them in 3.0 and 3.2 both S50 but one is more complex.
The later 2004 S54 is difficult to put in another car, but its a very nice engine! annyway, the S50 is much cheaper and can do the same tricks(power)
I know a tuner in Turkey that tune's those engine up and more then 1000hp!(turbo's) but its also possible to get more then 500hp out of them with a supercharger...he does amazing things with BMW M3 engine's when you want huge power...
There is also a guy in America I believe he drive's a Ultima GTR with a BMW V12 in it so he also has a special adaptor plate between the engine and gearbox? maybe he can help you...?
Good luck
GTRene

[cptsideways]

Theres a V12 BMW engined ultima on ebay as we speak

[GTRene]

cptsideways said:

Theres a V12 BMW engined ultima on ebay as we speak

Yep that one is already a long time for sale its from 1997(older model)
here is a newer model set-up

GTRene

[UpTheIron]

Omeyhomey,

Slightly off topic, but do you have the S50 or S54 dimensions to hand, or know of a website that has these details?

Thanks


Paul

[GTRene]

UpTheIron said:

Omeyhomey, Slightly off topic, but do you have the S50 or S54 dimensions to hand, or know of a website that has these details? Thanks Paul

Yep a bit ofline but also engine's that can fit a Ultima when you like, here is the link to the 1000+hp man and he has fare prices I think
www.da-motorsport.com
GTRene

[omeyhomey]

ya DA motorsports is big in the M3 world but those motors requires serious work on them. You can run a twin screw Lysholm supercharger kit (same SC as AMG motors) and get tremendous power. A S50 with the twin screw SC kit as identical dyno as a S62 BMW M5 engine.



Thats AA tuning, one of the best BMW tuners out there, my 95 M3 was a full AA car with AA stage 5 software and the works, it was putting out over 300crank HP on STOCK cams, granted it had every single mod in teh book to do that. That dyno above is for JUST the twin screw supercharger kit, that does not include exhaust system mods, and etc so it could make plenty more power then that, and that is on STOCK COMPRESSION MOTOR (8-9psi). However honestly I would much rather have a high revving Naturally aspirated motor b/c its just so much more fun in my opinion.

The S54 is not a bad motor at all... but for transplant sakes its a NIGHTMARE... same with S62 (belivee me i know, i tried to do a S62 swap into my E36 and stoped at the point of no return b/c i realized it would have costed the same as a ulimta GTR lol ). The electronics on both are so complex it takes all the fun out of an engine swap. THe S50's electronics are so simple by comparison its almost like a crate motor. If i were to do it i would do the swap the right way and buy a E36 95 M3 donor car and swap over majority of the components (including BMW M3 instrument cluster and etc) and do a really nice custom job.

There is a site with every single exact measurement of ever BMW engine ever made but im having trouble finding it. I do know the S50 weighs 333.4lbs and S54 is slightly less. So it is lighter than the Chevy motor thereby making it more nimble and etc. and if you do Dry sump oil pan you could get the weight even lower in the chassys b/c the engien block and head itselt are barely even 2 feet tall, the oil pan takes up alot of the height of the engine. Also the auxilaries are tucked in away behind the thermostat housing so nothing really sticks out except the engine fan, but all us E36 guys do the "Fan-delete" mod anyways and get rid of it b/c its worthless (and shatters all the time). also the width is the engine is so narrow by comparison to the huge V8's taht it would give you alot more room to come up with some crazy custom header designs and etc.

As far as BMW V12, the old BMW V12's (such as the one used in that ultima) are absolute maintenance NIGHTMARES... i would not touch one with a 10 foot pole. even the old BMW V8's before 95 were notorious problem-prone, but the E36 motor on the other hand is one of the most bulletproof motors ever made, its up there with the Skyline GTR and Supra TT inline-6. You can punish it to hell and back and it never shows signs of weakness, thats what i love about the motor so much, its so robust and reliable.

I will search for that website with all the engine specs and etc but i really think that a M3 powered Ultima GTR would be an amazing car in its own class, it may not hang with the chevy V8's but it would sure be an amazing car to drive.


>> Edited by omeyhomey on Friday 16th December 01:03

>> Edited by omeyhomey on Friday 16th December 01:05

[UpTheIron]

Omey,

Thanks for your reply...if you take a look at my profile, you will see my donor car...my TVR S6 hasn't given up yet, but I am trying to see if a BMW S6 will fit...

[jeff-texas]

omeyhomey said:

and if you do Dry sump oil pan you could get the weight even lower in the chassys b/c the engien block and head itselt are barely even 2 feet tall,

Chevy V8's are 2 feet tall INCLUDING the oil-sump (for a sports-car, not a Chevy truck), so I'd expect the LS7 or another dry-sump Chevy V8 to sit at the same height -- or even lower -- than the BMW engine as you describe it; the plastic intake (which makes the highest point of the engine a lightweight material), lower water-pump than the BMW's water-pump location, and OHV are also nice. Although I've seen CF and similar materials used for the BMW's intake, and I'd bet a remote-mounted electric pump could be used -- but that's another expense -- the BMW has no cure for the relatively high-mounted valvetrain's weight (and size: it makes the engine so tall despite have less displacement/stroke. So does the angle at which BMW sets the engine b/c the pistons seem to move, or "stroke," at approx. 60* from the horizontal, compared to the 90* Chevy's bank of cylinders each being set so the piston-stroke is 45* from horizontal, resulting in a short engine despite the larger displacement).
...And an LS2 (fully dressed except for P/S pump, which isn't needed on the Ultima) weighs about as much as your engine plus a supercharger weighs, but puts out 50 HP (RWHP) more than you were saying you can get with a supercharger -- and with the engine N/A, which you said you prefer. Expect at least 50 more RWHP from headers, air-filter plus ram-air, PCM tuning, and other simple mods on a N/A LS2, for a total of 450 RWHP *without* the expense of a supercharger (or 100 RWHP more than you were expecting from a *supercharged* M3 engine). Tempted yet?

OTOH, you know the BMW engine and it's a pain to re-learn a lot of things to use a new engine. But, it's also a pain to chop the Ultima chassis to fit the BMW's mounts and to make a custom tranny-mount, and the Chevy is a simple engine...relative to the complexity of re-designing the Ultima chassis to support the I6's different engine-mount locations whilst retaining the strength to hold the engine and its torque with those relocated mounts. I think the I6 would fit within the GRP body, though.
...Also, I wonder whether any Porsche G50 is going to suit the I6's torque-curve well? (w/o modifying the G50 with so many thousands of quid, for gear-ratio modifications, that you might as well spend those quid a higher-HP Chevy) The adapter-plate would probably need to be machined just like the Chevy adapters are, but the Chevy ones are mass-produced by KEP, not custom (i.e. probably cheaper & easier).

P.S. The Ultima doesn't use a big-block; not sure why you've kept referring to the BBC. Also, dropping the engine with a dry-sump doesn't cause better weight-distribution, that's better (less) weight-TRANSFER in corners you're thinking of. ;-)

[omeyhomey]

those facts may be true.... but at the end fo the day... its still a chevy engine (no offense). I don't want a chevy V8, i want german I-6. I'm not saying chevy V8 is bad... i just don't want one regardless of how much cheap it may be and how much power it may make. I prefer quality of power vs. quantity of power. Cost is no option, i just want S50 b/c thats my favorite engine of any car i've ever driven, (and I've driven ALOT of cars, but none get my heart racing like a S50), simple as that . making custom enging mounts is not a big deal at all, a few welds here and there...bingo, engine mounts. my main concern is overall fitment... the rest i can always modify and etc.

I am still looking for the engine specs page, when i find it i will post the dimensions of the different BMW engines.

As far as the M5 engine goes... its HUGE probably much better than a chevy engine especially with the huge airbox on top and etc but it would be one hell of an accomplishment if someone could get it to work, but speaking from someone who'se done hours of research on it... its extremely hard to get around the M5 electronics so i wouldn't bother, its not worth the headache.

[crafty]

omeyhomey said:

its extremely hard to get around the M5 electronics so i wouldn't bother, its not worth the headache.

Have a look here on my site, Michael Ruettger's done it.

http://spaces.msn.com/members/ultimaGTR/?partqs=ayea

[omeyhomey]

Thats the M62 not the S62 they are completely different animals. the S62 is so much more complex and so much more difficult to transplant and modify. M62's have been done in E36's no problem, but S62 has still not been done.

[omeyhomey]

Hey guys, I have been trying to find external measurements of the S50 but to no avail. I will just have to wait until i go home and measure the extra engine block sitting in the garage and see what the actual dimensions are like. But based on pictures alone i don't think it would be that much longer if any at all. I'll let yall know the exact measurements so we can all compare between the blocks.

[jeff-texas]

omeyhomey said:

I prefer quality of power vs. quantity of power.

The Ls2/7 have some of the flattest torque-curves out there, way better mileage around town or on the track, and the LS7 revs about as high as the M3 engine. The Corvette C5-R did quite well against the Germans in LeMans-style competitions and operated reliably in racing conditions against European competitors.

Other than those factors -- in which the LSx engines are higher-quality than the M3's I6 engine on all counts, no offense -- what constitutes "quality" of HP? You have your personal preferences and you will be doing extra work to fit an inferior engine, probably just out of brand-loyalty; that's up to your choice, but if you're going to say Chevy's engine isn't as good, at least point out something factual about its inferiority, homey.

omeyhomey said:

making custom enging mounts is not a big deal at all, a few welds here and there...bingo, engine mounts.

Have you considered the offset of where your mounts are vs. the stock mount locations? Better not torque the tubular steel and find a way to triangulate whatever you make instead, or you're probably looking at premature mount-failure.

omeyhomey said:

As far as the M5 engine goes... its HUGE probably much better than a chevy engine...

It puts out 5 HP less than the LS7 and doesn't even make 500 HP unless you spin the bejezzus out of it:
If it made 500 HP at 6300 RPM which is where the LS7 peaks, *and* kept spinning higher and made 600-700 HP at 7500 RPM, *then* it would accelerate a car faster than the LS7 -- but it doesn't.
(This occurs because it would have the same *flywheel* torque at 7k RPM as the Chevy does at 6k RPM, and for any given gear, you could stay in the lower gear longer with the higher-revving M5 engine w/o shifting to a higher gear; since gears are torque-multipliers, after you shift, you have less *rear-wheel* torque than the lower gear and this *would* give the M5 engine an advantage. But the M5's problem is that it makes 500 HP *only* at higher RPM's than the LS7, not 500 HP @ 6300 RPM like the Ls7 does, so you get less torque at the *flywheel* than the LS7, which negates the M5 engine's benefit of staying in a lower gear for longer (i.e., until the vehicle-speed is higher).) It's 384 peak lb-ft for the M5 vs. 470 peak lb-ft for the LS7, so you'd need to rev about 22% higher with the M5 -- for the purpose of getting a 22% lower gear-ratio in the M5's transaxle -- and it revs only 18% higher! i.e., You want to keep making lots of torque at the highest RPM's (as I've said before in the Ultima forum), but the M5 engine makes less torque as a ratio of the RPM-benefit it provides, compared to the LS7. You also want the flattest torque-curve possible (and if the M5 has a flatter curve than the LS7, it might actually accelerate a car faster w/o revving 22% higher as stated above...but it's actually got a peakier -- less flat -- curve than the LS7, which means it needs to rev even more than the 22% higher than the LS7, yet revs only 18% higher).

The M5 really should be making more HP than the LS7 since it can rev higher, and all other things being equal, higher RPM's = more HP potential. The trouble here is that "all other things" aren't equal: (#1) The M5 is inferior in terms of head-flow, cam-profile, or something else that would help it to make 500 HP @ 6300 RPM like the LS7 does, but (#2) then keep on spinning unlike the Ls7 (and make more HP, by spinning to a higher redline than the LS7). It would have the advantage over the LS7 *if* it had both of these things, but it only has the latter benefit (#2), which is negated by its inferiority on the former issue (#1).

Then it's got worse mileage, and a worse torque-curve down low: The Chevy has more torque at 6500 RPM and at 1000 RPM, so it's just got "higher-quality" power ...all this despite the BMW using complex (and heavy) variable valve-timing -- which Chevy says they'll eventually add to Corvette engines to get way more than the M5's 500 HP, which both engines currently make, but Chevy has promised to use this "band-aid" only when makes about 600 or 700 HP using a wilder cam and other mods that make their mileage get as bad as the M5's mileage already is with "only" 500 HP. (or we could use BSFC, if you want to take the Corvette vs. M5 *chassis* out of the picture to compare only engine-vs.-engine in terms of mileage)
...So they both make 500 HP, but only the M5 needs the "band aid" of variable valve-timing (no offense...); it doesn't have the power-potential of the LS7 if it's already needing variable-timing for only 500 HP. Call me crazy, but that's a worse engine than the LS7, because: It's also heavier, more expensive, and more complex (more to go wrong, the more complex anything is); you could have an LS7 reliably making 700 NET horsepower for the cost of that M5 engine. ...And if AirflowResearch or similar made a high-rev kit (w/o changing the shape of the ports), you'd be making a few hundred more HP at the same RPM the M5 spins to. The LSx Chevies actually pull BETTER near idle-speed than the old-style, stump-pulling (high-torque/low-HP) Chevies, then ALSO have enough high-end HP to negate the M5's RPM advantage -- the best of both worlds (low-speed and high-speed, i.e. a slightly wider power-band than the M5 has, given the percentages in my 1st paragraph), all WITHOUT variable timing.

(and then BMW put a 155-MPH limiter on it; I'm sure that can be undone, but still that's just silly...)

>> Edited by jeff-texas on Friday 16th December 07:33

[chuntington101]

i maybe wrong but i think i remember a race car runing a BMW inline 6! there was a thread on here about it, somewhere!

i think it would make a nice project! i dont see why its cant be done, but then who am i to say!

and that 1000bhp M3 motor wouuld look realllllllllllly nice in there!!! hehehehehe

thanks Chris.