David Davis plays a trump card
Discussion
No. I see as tantamount to declaring open warfare within the Tory party on the issue (ok, nothing new there then!), because naturally he would have to allow Tory MP's to campaign with whichever side they agree with. The Tories need some leadership one way or the other on Europe, not passing the question to the electorate to try and duck the issue as long as possible. Not saying this because I'm against a referendum (I'm not), but because I think his motivations are wrong.
I do not believe it will win him many votes.
The belief that we should draw a line in the sand and transfer no more powers to Brussels is one shared by virtually all the Tory party.
Withdrawing from the EU altogether is another matter entirely.
>> Edited by Jaglover on Wednesday 2nd November 08:59
The belief that we should draw a line in the sand and transfer no more powers to Brussels is one shared by virtually all the Tory party.
Withdrawing from the EU altogether is another matter entirely.
>> Edited by Jaglover on Wednesday 2nd November 08:59
Davis would be an uncompromising leader - his stance on Europe would be "unite behind me or go and find another party to support".
This is drawing up battle lines and appealing to the right wing of the party, which has been increasingly falling into line behind Cameron. Cameron is uniting the party by being inclusive and leaving it to Davis to paint himself into a pigeonhole.
This is the latest act of desperation that shows that Davis' personal ambitions outweigh his desire to see the party united and returned to an effective fighting force.
I think he's just well and truly shot himself in the foot.
This is drawing up battle lines and appealing to the right wing of the party, which has been increasingly falling into line behind Cameron. Cameron is uniting the party by being inclusive and leaving it to Davis to paint himself into a pigeonhole.
This is the latest act of desperation that shows that Davis' personal ambitions outweigh his desire to see the party united and returned to an effective fighting force.
I think he's just well and truly shot himself in the foot.
Davis is a desperate man. He's way behind and almost certain to lose.
Having said that I believe an unequivocal statement on Europe from a Tory leader that says we will dramatically draw back powers from Brussells (or leave if necessary) would be popular with a great many voters in this country. I would personally like to see a far more eurosceptic Tory party. Clarke's gone so let's move on.
Having said that I believe an unequivocal statement on Europe from a Tory leader that says we will dramatically draw back powers from Brussells (or leave if necessary) would be popular with a great many voters in this country. I would personally like to see a far more eurosceptic Tory party. Clarke's gone so let's move on.
unrepentant said:
Davis is a desperate man. He's way behind and almost certain to lose.
Having said that I believe an unequivocal statement on Europe from a Tory leader that says we will dramatically draw back powers from Brussells (or leave if necessary) would be popular with a great many voters in this country. I would personally like to see a far more eurosceptic Tory party. Clarke's gone so let's move on.
There is only one purely Eurosceptic party and that is UKIP. Labour is just as divided over the issue as the Conservatives. Lib Dems are slavishly pro.
There is no need for one issue to split the party - no matter how big the issue may be. Not all Conservatives are slavish clones of one another and there is plenty of room for differences of opinion and members with instincts from across a broad political spectrum. No credible party will ever be united in a single stance on such a wide-ranging issue.
The perception of the Conservatives as hopelessly divided over Europe was a masterstroke of PR initiated by Mandelson. Cameron's approach is to recognise that there are varying opinions over the issue, and that this will always be the case, and to make sure that people from the varying shades of conservatism are given equal opportunity to air their views and contribute to party policy. There is no need to be "pro" or "anti" as a party, merely to have sensible debate over the issue and come up with policies that reflect the instincts of the majority of members.
Mon Ami Mate said:
The perception of the Conservatives as hopelessly divided over Europe was a masterstroke of PR initiated by Mandelson.
I don't think the party is divided on Europe. I think 99% of Tory members are deeply Eurosceptic and 75% would leave tomorrow given the opportunity.
The Tories are on a hiding to nothing on the Europe issue, they should STFU about it as it only causes problems.
In his excellent book about his Election campaign, Boris Johnson wrote that although he felt his knowledge of "Europe" was second to none (he'd been the Telegraph's Brussels correspondent for several years), when he spoke with his constituents they either thought he was too Eurosceptic or not Eurosceptic enough, so he lost out either way.
In his excellent book about his Election campaign, Boris Johnson wrote that although he felt his knowledge of "Europe" was second to none (he'd been the Telegraph's Brussels correspondent for several years), when he spoke with his constituents they either thought he was too Eurosceptic or not Eurosceptic enough, so he lost out either way.
unrepentant said:
The perception of the Conservatives as hopelessly divided over Europe was a masterstroke of PR initiated by Mandelson.
I don't think the party is divided on Europe. I think 99% of Tory members are deeply Eurosceptic and 75% would leave tomorrow given the opportunity.
From where I sit I'd say that about 75% of the party are sceptical to varying degrees and the other 25% are pro to varying degrees.
They need complete root and branch reform, single issue politics will curry them no favours and is a pointless sop to the core tory middle englanders.
They need to think long and hard about becoming a lot more libertarian focussed as that is probably the only thing that will return them to a credible platform and ultimately to power.
Dont get me wrong, even the current lot I would choose over the marxists but to engage the ambivalent populous real change needs to occur.
They need to think long and hard about becoming a lot more libertarian focussed as that is probably the only thing that will return them to a credible platform and ultimately to power.
Dont get me wrong, even the current lot I would choose over the marxists but to engage the ambivalent populous real change needs to occur.
Plotloss said:
They need complete root and branch reform, single issue politics will curry them no favours and is a pointless sop to the core tory middle englanders.
They need to think long and hard about becoming a lot more libertarian focussed as that is probably the only thing that will return them to a credible platform and ultimately to power.
Dont get me wrong, even the current lot I would choose over the marxists but to engage the ambivalent populous real change needs to occur.
The liberarian thing interests me. I'm a libertarian Conservative - and I know lots of other libertarian Conservatives. Conservative policies are oftenperceived as authoritarian, but what could be more authoritarian than the current Government? I think that a libertarian empahsis will win the next general election in the face of increasing awareness of the erosion of basic freedoms of thought and expression.
There's some discussion at the moment about rebranding the party as the Conservative Freedom Party.
Plotloss said:
They need to think long and hard about becoming a lot more libertarian focussed as that is probably the only thing that will return them to a credible platform and ultimately to power.
Pushing the Libertarian agenda is a good way that the Tories can distance themselves from New Labour, and would be popular with the younger voters (IMHO). It would sit uncomfortable with the more conservative (small-c) Old-Guard of the party, so is unlikely to happen.
Mon Ami Mate said:
They need complete root and branch reform, single issue politics will curry them no favours and is a pointless sop to the core tory middle englanders.
They need to think long and hard about becoming a lot more libertarian focussed as that is probably the only thing that will return them to a credible platform and ultimately to power.
Dont get me wrong, even the current lot I would choose over the marxists but to engage the ambivalent populous real change needs to occur.
The liberarian thing interests me. I'm a libertarian Conservative - and I know lots of other libertarian Conservatives. Conservative policies are oftenperceived as authoritarian, but what could be more authoritarian than the current Government? I think that a libertarian empahsis will win the next general election in the face of increasing awareness of the erosion of basic freedoms of thought and expression.
There's some discussion at the moment about rebranding the party as the Conservative Freedom Party.
If the Conservatives are to become a truly Libertarian party they will have to make some tough choices. It is no good declaring you are a Libertarian one day, than moaning at loosing the restrictions on pub opening hours, or casinos the next.
Truckosaurus said:
It would sit uncomfortable with the more conservative (small-c) Old-Guard of the party, so is unlikely to happen.
I am hopeful, that much like Jaguar, that they realise that their core market is slowly but surely shuffling off this mortal coil and they need new product to captivate a new audience...
>> Edited by Plotloss on Wednesday 2nd November 11:37
Truckosaurus said:
They need to think long and hard about becoming a lot more libertarian focussed as that is probably the only thing that will return them to a credible platform and ultimately to power.
Pushing the Libertarian agenda is a good way that the Tories can distance themselves from New Labour, and would be popular with the younger voters (IMHO).
I agree entirely
The Conservatives do not have to move to the 'right' or 'left' to regain power, they need to promise freedom.
unrepentant said:
Having said that I believe an unequivocal statement on Europe from a Tory leader that says we will dramatically draw back powers from Brussells (or leave if necessary) would be popular with a great many voters in this country. I would personally like to see a far more eurosceptic Tory party. Clarke's gone so let's move on.
Damn right. A local radio presenter went to Brussels to look for the gravy train, it wasn't hard to find, every couple of days the whole shooting match is uprooted to move to Strasbourg at enormous expense to appease the French, the amount of our money squandered is frightening
Mon Ami Mate said:
The perception of the Conservatives as hopelessly divided over Europe was a masterstroke of PR initiated by Mandelson.
I don't think the party is divided on Europe. I think 99% of Tory members are deeply Eurosceptic and 75% would leave tomorrow given the opportunity.
From where I sit I'd say that about 75% of the party are sceptical to varying degrees and the other 25% are pro to varying degrees.
Some division from Tory supporters over the level of Euroskepticial division in the Tory party then.
Davis is clearly saying the right things to the right auidance by commenting on Europe in the Sun.
I belive his opponet was spouting some soothing words to a diferent auidance in yesterdays Indipendent.
Cameron said:
"The need to tackle climate change is urgent." and says "I want to see a long-term strategy for tackling climate change that combines the priorities of economic growth and security of energy supply with the need to move to a low-carbon world."
Horses for courses.
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