Expectations when buying a used performance car
Discussion
I've normally bought car's at the bottom end of the market and been happy to get them into great condition myself. And was never that bothered if they turned out a bit worse than I thought because 'I bought cheap'.
But now, I don't have much free time on my hands, so when I find a car I like, I look at the top of the market to get one that's sorted.
Which leads me to my car buying experience yesterday.
I went to see a car which was advertised as 'impeccable' had low mileage and looked great in the ad. Having paid a deposit before turning up on the agreed date and being ensured the car is in perfect 'like new' original condition I was optimistic. It had just passed a '300 point' check from an independent company to confirm the condition.
However when I arrived, within about 30 seconds I'd found a number of things that I don't understand why they didn't tell me before.
It was modified, had a de-cat, clearly obvious because the exhaust center section wasn't stock and had poorly applied heat wrap all over it. It had an aftermarket sandwich plate on the oil filter (bright red) but no extra gauges and braided brake lines. Probably more mods if I looked deeper.
The rear tyres were on there wear markers, the clutch had a really high bite and the engine was overdue a major belt service by 1 year (but was ok in terms of miles).
Nothing terrible, but the dealer's asking price was equivalent to a OEM FSH cherished example.
Now, I don't actually mind the mods (but do worry what else had been messed with) and offered them about 10% less than the asking price citing it needs a belt service and maybe a clutch. They said no so I walked away.
They text me today something along the lines of "Would have been better to discuss price before as to not waste their time".
I was fully willing to pay the full asking and had the money in my account to transfer right then and there.
This is now the second time I've gone to a 'Perfect Condition' car to find poor mods, lack of history and it due relatively big bills in the near future. Is that the norm? Would other buyers not look under the car or notice/care about any of the issues? I understand on a 'normal' car, but a performance car?
I get the feeling I should rather buy cheap and spend the difference getting a car sorted to the condition I'd want it to be in rather than try and find something 'in good condition'.
But now, I don't have much free time on my hands, so when I find a car I like, I look at the top of the market to get one that's sorted.
Which leads me to my car buying experience yesterday.
I went to see a car which was advertised as 'impeccable' had low mileage and looked great in the ad. Having paid a deposit before turning up on the agreed date and being ensured the car is in perfect 'like new' original condition I was optimistic. It had just passed a '300 point' check from an independent company to confirm the condition.
However when I arrived, within about 30 seconds I'd found a number of things that I don't understand why they didn't tell me before.
It was modified, had a de-cat, clearly obvious because the exhaust center section wasn't stock and had poorly applied heat wrap all over it. It had an aftermarket sandwich plate on the oil filter (bright red) but no extra gauges and braided brake lines. Probably more mods if I looked deeper.
The rear tyres were on there wear markers, the clutch had a really high bite and the engine was overdue a major belt service by 1 year (but was ok in terms of miles).
Nothing terrible, but the dealer's asking price was equivalent to a OEM FSH cherished example.
Now, I don't actually mind the mods (but do worry what else had been messed with) and offered them about 10% less than the asking price citing it needs a belt service and maybe a clutch. They said no so I walked away.
They text me today something along the lines of "Would have been better to discuss price before as to not waste their time".
I was fully willing to pay the full asking and had the money in my account to transfer right then and there.
This is now the second time I've gone to a 'Perfect Condition' car to find poor mods, lack of history and it due relatively big bills in the near future. Is that the norm? Would other buyers not look under the car or notice/care about any of the issues? I understand on a 'normal' car, but a performance car?
I get the feeling I should rather buy cheap and spend the difference getting a car sorted to the condition I'd want it to be in rather than try and find something 'in good condition'.
I think it is probably worth not paying a deposit before viewing. It also depends if the person/company you are buying it from has the knowledge to spot modifications to the car. Things like tyres on their wear bars would suggest it is poorly prepped, but could be a point of negotiation.
If it is a bit specialist then possibly worth buying from a reputable specialist. Interestingly enough I was watching a Chiltern Aston Instagram reel yesterday talking about a Vantage N430 (or possibly N400) they were prepping for sale with a retail cost for those works approaching £15k. That included a clutch, brakes, a driveshaft etc, as their view was that they didn't want the new owner to take the car for service within 18 months and have to do work on it, with a potential risk to their reputation.
If it is a bit specialist then possibly worth buying from a reputable specialist. Interestingly enough I was watching a Chiltern Aston Instagram reel yesterday talking about a Vantage N430 (or possibly N400) they were prepping for sale with a retail cost for those works approaching £15k. That included a clutch, brakes, a driveshaft etc, as their view was that they didn't want the new owner to take the car for service within 18 months and have to do work on it, with a potential risk to their reputation.
Did they say the car was in original condition? It is, of course, quite possible to have an 'impeccable' modified car.
I haven't bought many used cars (only 2 if memory serves). My 911 was a used example and one of the first questions I asked was about modifications - useful to know if you want a Porsche warranty.
I haven't bought many used cars (only 2 if memory serves). My 911 was a used example and one of the first questions I asked was about modifications - useful to know if you want a Porsche warranty.
My expectations would depend entirely upon the price point, the age, and the type of car it is - none of which have been shared by the OP.
On a three year old supercar I'd expect the dealer to declare any modifications before I arranged to view. On say an RX-7 I would expect the car after two decades to have some deviations from factory spec, and the converse applies - if it was an unmodified example then I'd expect that to be made clear in the ad specifically.
In terms of maintenance an older car is going to need ongoing replacements of consumables and I wouldn't necessarily expect it to be brought to a point where it truly needs nothing doing for the next 12 months - with lead times for parts and specialists this can quickly become an exercise in tail-chasing for the owner. Conversely if I bought an approved used car that needed a clutch right away, that would fall well below my expectations.
The general bottom line is that used cars will be described to attract interest not to comprehensively and accurately assess their state and likely upcoming maintenance, and that the only way to achieve the latter is to view them. Finding the right used car is always a matter of trial and error, and OP's experience sounds absolutely par for the course to me. The only thing you can really do is build up a list of specific questions to ask a seller before travelling to view a car, such as 'does it have any modifications'.
If you really want to, you could respond to the dealer offering them full asking price on condition that they do the belt service and clutch before you buy, thus putting the ball back in their court and the focus on the car's condition rather than price. But obviously only if you'd want the car and still trust the dealer.
It's 'only' a 20k car and is 15 years old.
I had checked about condition etc, and the reason I gave a deposit is the car required a flight for me to go see it. Hence not wanting to turn up and it be already sold.
I guess for next time I need to be more specific in my questions "does it had any mods" and "can you send me pictures of all the history paperwork" before I pay a deposit and go see the car.
The dealer just kept assuring me everything was perfect, it was like new, needed nothing and was 'the best I'll find'.
But this isn't the first time something like this as happened when going to view performance cars.
A car advertised as impeccable, needs nothing and oem condition turns out to be not that. Not a dog, but needs work.
I just generally wonder, for anything more than 3/5 years old and less than 50k is this what should be expected? Even the 'best' cars advertised as 'perfect' need a fair amount of work? If the car looks shiny and drives alright is that enough for the average performance car buyer?
I get it from a dealers pov, if the car needs a few k spending on it to be really good, but most people won't notice why do it. But I thought that was more for 'ordinary cars' and had higher expectations for performance cars.
I had checked about condition etc, and the reason I gave a deposit is the car required a flight for me to go see it. Hence not wanting to turn up and it be already sold.
I guess for next time I need to be more specific in my questions "does it had any mods" and "can you send me pictures of all the history paperwork" before I pay a deposit and go see the car.
The dealer just kept assuring me everything was perfect, it was like new, needed nothing and was 'the best I'll find'.
But this isn't the first time something like this as happened when going to view performance cars.
A car advertised as impeccable, needs nothing and oem condition turns out to be not that. Not a dog, but needs work.
I just generally wonder, for anything more than 3/5 years old and less than 50k is this what should be expected? Even the 'best' cars advertised as 'perfect' need a fair amount of work? If the car looks shiny and drives alright is that enough for the average performance car buyer?
I get it from a dealers pov, if the car needs a few k spending on it to be really good, but most people won't notice why do it. But I thought that was more for 'ordinary cars' and had higher expectations for performance cars.
Standard s
thouse dealers
I travelled 3 1/2 hours last year to see a car of a rareish spec but a common ish car which was the right price and age etc and the dealer described it as perfect, you wont find any faults and is brilliant condition with clearly dressed up photos etc.
I arrive and see it across the lot and can instantly tell its had a hard life, probably as an ex cop car. Paint tired, full of bits of laquer peel , dings, scratched exterior plastic, dirty headlining. i drove it and it felt shagged, needed track rod ends, top mounts and new discs as a minimum.
We sat down after the drive and he was expecting me just to do the paperwork and be off, sadly it didnt go his way that time. not sure why they do it. i was especially annoyed as it was an autotrader car and i allowed myself to arrange px before i viewed so it was irritating all round and on a £25k car not what i was expecting
thouse dealersI travelled 3 1/2 hours last year to see a car of a rareish spec but a common ish car which was the right price and age etc and the dealer described it as perfect, you wont find any faults and is brilliant condition with clearly dressed up photos etc.
I arrive and see it across the lot and can instantly tell its had a hard life, probably as an ex cop car. Paint tired, full of bits of laquer peel , dings, scratched exterior plastic, dirty headlining. i drove it and it felt shagged, needed track rod ends, top mounts and new discs as a minimum.
We sat down after the drive and he was expecting me just to do the paperwork and be off, sadly it didnt go his way that time. not sure why they do it. i was especially annoyed as it was an autotrader car and i allowed myself to arrange px before i viewed so it was irritating all round and on a £25k car not what i was expecting
Maybe you're unlucky, never pay the sticker price, always a few quid available, not much tho.
I buy privately and from small dealers so can have a good chinwag about the car and even a video whatsapp. Tend to stick clear shiny dealers with 300 point pointless checks they boast about, the top of the market I think they're creaming it on good margins (although admittedly it's tough to make money). Car supermarket good if car say upto 4 yrs ex lease, have good history etc
What car is it? Golf R, M4? Possibly they're notorious for being high risk given some clientele?
(Also had to buy a car long range recently and used AT dealer reviews as a key search criteria)
I buy privately and from small dealers so can have a good chinwag about the car and even a video whatsapp. Tend to stick clear shiny dealers with 300 point pointless checks they boast about, the top of the market I think they're creaming it on good margins (although admittedly it's tough to make money). Car supermarket good if car say upto 4 yrs ex lease, have good history etc
What car is it? Golf R, M4? Possibly they're notorious for being high risk given some clientele?
(Also had to buy a car long range recently and used AT dealer reviews as a key search criteria)
Edited by v8notbrave on Tuesday 27th October 12:49
mattdyson said:
They text me today something along the lines of "Would have been better to discuss price before as to not waste their time".
I was fully willing to pay the full asking and had the money in my account to transfer right then and there.
I trust your response was to point out all the things inaccurate or lacking in their description and that your offer was very fair, and that had it been as they described you'd have been happy to pay the price.I was fully willing to pay the full asking and had the money in my account to transfer right then and there.
It seems to me that Price + Description have much less correlation with how good a car actually is than they should.
The problem I have is, if they don't (as I've found out) it's really hard to find an actual decent car. And where I live + being short on time means going to lots of viewings is a massive pain in the arse (not to mention can be pricey).
I've asked people local from owners clubs to check a car before, but was burn't on that one too (immaculate ontop, rotten beneath, last time I buy a car from Scotland).
I don't think this dealer was exceptionally bad, actually in my recently experience they were better than most as they actually replied to messages and were easy to deal with. We just had different viewpoints on what a sorted car is.
Think I'm back to waiting for cars to pop up locally from private sellers. Just limits the pool, especially for interesting cars, significantly.
The problem I have is, if they don't (as I've found out) it's really hard to find an actual decent car. And where I live + being short on time means going to lots of viewings is a massive pain in the arse (not to mention can be pricey).
I've asked people local from owners clubs to check a car before, but was burn't on that one too (immaculate ontop, rotten beneath, last time I buy a car from Scotland).
I don't think this dealer was exceptionally bad, actually in my recently experience they were better than most as they actually replied to messages and were easy to deal with. We just had different viewpoints on what a sorted car is.
Think I'm back to waiting for cars to pop up locally from private sellers. Just limits the pool, especially for interesting cars, significantly.
v8notbrave said:
Maybe you're unlucky, never pay the sticker price, always a few quid available, not much tho.I buy privately and from small dealers so can have a good chinwag about the car and even a video whatsapp. Tend to stick clear shiny dealers with 300 point pointless checks they boast about, the top of the market I think they're creaming it on good margins (although admittedly it's tough to make money). Car supermarket good if car say upto 4 yrs ex lease, have good history etcWhat car is it? Golf R, M4? Possibly they're notorious for being high risk given some clientele?(Also had to buy a car long range recently and used AT dealer reviews as a key search criteria)
300 point check. Tyres? 4. Steering wheel? Yes. Doors? Yes. Seats? Yes. Engine? Yes. That's about as deep as many of these checks go.I often wonder if there's a market for slightly higher priced cars for the discerning buyer, fitted with new, good tyres all work done and issues resolved, but no doubt either no one will come because of the price, or if they do they'll try and knock thousands off saying its overpriced. And walk away and buy something cheaper and then have massive hassles getting things sorted from a dealer who isn't interested. Edited by v8notbrave on Tuesday 27th October 12:49
I also don't mind worn tyres as am picky and prefer to put on what I like anyway.
What I don't like is the scenario where they say they are good tyres (but they're almost dead) and when you mention it their reply is "no problem, will put a new set on" (for sure a set of ditch-finders).
I also feel uneasy when (like in this case). You find things that are obviously need doing (which were also obvious before the viewing) which when mentioned "are no problem, they can get them sorted asap". Ok if these are simple things, but "no problem, I'll just cat a cat welded in, I know a place down the street, can be done this afternoon", just puts me right off.
What I don't like is the scenario where they say they are good tyres (but they're almost dead) and when you mention it their reply is "no problem, will put a new set on" (for sure a set of ditch-finders).
I also feel uneasy when (like in this case). You find things that are obviously need doing (which were also obvious before the viewing) which when mentioned "are no problem, they can get them sorted asap". Ok if these are simple things, but "no problem, I'll just cat a cat welded in, I know a place down the street, can be done this afternoon", just puts me right off.
It's all so variable. Have had some great experiences eg Lexus and some pretty poor ones. AM dealer within 5 months and 2k miles of being a timeless warrantied car apparently needed all 4 discs and pads doing and all the spark plugs doing. Apparently although that is a recommendation at 5 years and 60k miles it had not been done in the last 8 years of ownership due to low mileage. They don't tell you that when buying. Make you pay full retail and then hit you with another £6k bill 6 months later!
OutInTheShed said:
Personally, I'm happy if the tyres need changing, it means you can see the old ones wore evenly and you can chose what tyres you like.
A decat car is not roadworthy.
^^^^ Wot 'e said.A decat car is not roadworthy.
Decat means an instant "roadside inspection" or MOT fail & possible impound in the right (wrong) circumstances. AFAIK.
OP.
As to your actual question unfortunately there are more chancers/liars out there than there are genuine sellers.
If I were in your position I would start as close as possible & steadily widen the net until you have found one you like/are willing to get right, you will find what you are looking for but may well cover a lot of miles/hours to get there.
Have done it a few times in my time.
232miles for a 530i.
320miles for an MV6.
245 miles for a 523i.
Just to name a few that spring to mind.
As to your actual question unfortunately there are more chancers/liars out there than there are genuine sellers.
If I were in your position I would start as close as possible & steadily widen the net until you have found one you like/are willing to get right, you will find what you are looking for but may well cover a lot of miles/hours to get there.
Have done it a few times in my time.
232miles for a 530i.
320miles for an MV6.
245 miles for a 523i.
Just to name a few that spring to mind.
I was looking for a car for my daughter - a Hyundai Ioniq 5. She was quite specific about the spec and trim she wanted, so I set up an AutoTrader search and waited.
First car was with a main dealer. It was as described but was a bit pricey. We lowballed and they said no. Fair enough - I wasn't worried about not buying the first car we saw.
However, I wasn't ready for the sea of excrement through which we'd have to wade for the next couple of months.
We'd see cars advertised that met her criteria and they would be described on the phone as "perfect" or "immaculate". I made it very clear that we would not buy it if it was not well-looked after.
We'd drive for a couple of hours to find that the car:
We also drove three hours to one car dealer who then told us, "It has just been reserved by another branch, but if you pay the offer price right now, we will let you have it" (it was still on their website a month later).
Thankfully, the right car came up at Hyundai Liverpool. The car was exactly the right spec; it was low mileage; it was reasonably priced; the car was as described; the salesman gave us a bit off and threw in some new mats and merch. It was also the later model with the rear wash-wipe, which was nice.
That almost made up for the ocean of ordure that we swam through to get there.
However, I did despair of the run-of-the-mill dealers. They were wasting my time and theirs. I suppose they rely on mugs walking through the door and not looking at what they are buying.
First car was with a main dealer. It was as described but was a bit pricey. We lowballed and they said no. Fair enough - I wasn't worried about not buying the first car we saw.
However, I wasn't ready for the sea of excrement through which we'd have to wade for the next couple of months.
We'd see cars advertised that met her criteria and they would be described on the phone as "perfect" or "immaculate". I made it very clear that we would not buy it if it was not well-looked after.
We'd drive for a couple of hours to find that the car:
- had crash damage still evident (on a main dealer demonstrator),
- had been poorly repaired (runs in the paint and misaligned trim),
- had been clocked (carpet worn to the cords in only "11,000" miles).
We also drove three hours to one car dealer who then told us, "It has just been reserved by another branch, but if you pay the offer price right now, we will let you have it" (it was still on their website a month later).
Thankfully, the right car came up at Hyundai Liverpool. The car was exactly the right spec; it was low mileage; it was reasonably priced; the car was as described; the salesman gave us a bit off and threw in some new mats and merch. It was also the later model with the rear wash-wipe, which was nice.
That almost made up for the ocean of ordure that we swam through to get there.
However, I did despair of the run-of-the-mill dealers. They were wasting my time and theirs. I suppose they rely on mugs walking through the door and not looking at what they are buying.
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