Family drowned in Sussex
Discussion
I was watching the breakfast news this morning, and saw the report of a family of i think 4 getting into difficulty in the sea, sadly 3 died.
A very sad thing, but what struck me was the emergency services response.
I counted from the footage, 13 ambulances, 2 helicopters, countless police cars.
While im not suggesting they should be just left to drown, this to me seems a massive over use.
I wonder at the cost?
Or am i missing something.
A very sad thing, but what struck me was the emergency services response.
I counted from the footage, 13 ambulances, 2 helicopters, countless police cars.
While im not suggesting they should be just left to drown, this to me seems a massive over use.
I wonder at the cost?
Or am i missing something.
Others may have better insight but I believe it is standard practice when multiple people are reported as being in trouble to assume there are more than is reported so deploy resources on the basis of a worse case scenario. And I believe you can only get one patient in an Air Ambulance.
4 people drowning means you probably need at least 12 people minimum.
That's if you actually know that's what you're dealing with rather than multiple reports of "bodies in the water".
It's easy to say after the fact but not so easy if you're faced with trying to decide what the "right" number is and then risk finding you need to triple it once the first responders get there.
That's if you actually know that's what you're dealing with rather than multiple reports of "bodies in the water".
It's easy to say after the fact but not so easy if you're faced with trying to decide what the "right" number is and then risk finding you need to triple it once the first responders get there.
StevieBee said:
Others may have better insight but I believe it is standard practice when multiple people are reported as being in trouble to assume there are more than is reported so deploy resources on the basis of a worse case scenario.
That does sound likely, and something i hadnt thought of, thank you, i knew i would be missing something.normalbloke said:
At what cost does it become too expensive for you?
It's not cost, it's proper use of resources, The idea is to not stretch capacity by needless misuse of ambulances, what happens if there's an incident 30 miles away and 10 ambulances are kicking their heels at an incident that requires two ?Best to check Sky to see if the Far Right can in any way be shoehorned into the tragedy.
I can help with this, as I dispatch ambulances for a living.
You normally need two trucks per person for a cardiac arrest, so given the details that would be 8 ideally. You'd then have at least one operational commander for an incident like this, so that makes 8 trucks and a car.
HART would then be deployed as it's a water incident, and they travel in a 4, so that's now 12 (Hart looks like ambulances). The tac advisor should also be sent, so that's also another car.
The helicopter is a separate entity, and do their own thing. Drowning is an immediate send. They'd have requested assistance from another area given the details, or it might have been coastguard in the other heli (I've not looked at the pictures) just due to the numbers involved.
This was out of our area so SECAMB might have slightly different policies in place, but the theory is similar. Two trucks and a TL per person in arrest.
Police would have been deployed. Coastguard would have been on scene, and fire potentially if required. 4 drownings would be pretty close to a critical incident.
You normally need two trucks per person for a cardiac arrest, so given the details that would be 8 ideally. You'd then have at least one operational commander for an incident like this, so that makes 8 trucks and a car.
HART would then be deployed as it's a water incident, and they travel in a 4, so that's now 12 (Hart looks like ambulances). The tac advisor should also be sent, so that's also another car.
The helicopter is a separate entity, and do their own thing. Drowning is an immediate send. They'd have requested assistance from another area given the details, or it might have been coastguard in the other heli (I've not looked at the pictures) just due to the numbers involved.
This was out of our area so SECAMB might have slightly different policies in place, but the theory is similar. Two trucks and a TL per person in arrest.
Police would have been deployed. Coastguard would have been on scene, and fire potentially if required. 4 drownings would be pretty close to a critical incident.
Palestinian asylum seekers are the deceased, the 2nd time this summer where foreign nationals have got into trouble and died in the waters off Sussex. The others being a Jamaican family group
Reports are the sea was at high tide with a heavy swell and a fresh breeze at the time
Not ideal conditions to be going for a dip
Reports are the sea was at high tide with a heavy swell and a fresh breeze at the time
Not ideal conditions to be going for a dip
It’s another very strange event, as apparently the family were Palestinian refugees. These beach tragedies seem to be disproportionately affecting ethnic minorities.
I’m wondering if there some missing piece of life experience or behavioural connection? Maybe time for a public information campaign?
I’m wondering if there some missing piece of life experience or behavioural connection? Maybe time for a public information campaign?
S100HP said:
I can help with this, as I dispatch ambulances for a living.
You normally need two trucks per person for a cardiac arrest, so given the details that would be 8 ideally. You'd then have at least one operational commander for an incident like this, so that makes 8 trucks and a car.
HART would then be deployed as it's a water incident, and they travel in a 4, so that's now 12 (Hart looks like ambulances). The tac advisor should also be sent, so that's also another car.
The helicopter is a separate entity, and do their own thing. Drowning is an immediate send. They'd have requested assistance from another area given the details, or it might have been coastguard in the other heli (I've not looked at the pictures) just due to the numbers involved.
This was out of our area so SECAMB might have slightly different policies in place, but the theory is similar. Two trucks and a TL per person in arrest.
Police would have been deployed. Coastguard would have been on scene, and fire potentially if required. 4 drownings would be pretty close to a critical incident.
Thanks for the detailed reply, all very informative, i never you needed two ambulances for a cardiac arrest, that surprises me.You normally need two trucks per person for a cardiac arrest, so given the details that would be 8 ideally. You'd then have at least one operational commander for an incident like this, so that makes 8 trucks and a car.
HART would then be deployed as it's a water incident, and they travel in a 4, so that's now 12 (Hart looks like ambulances). The tac advisor should also be sent, so that's also another car.
The helicopter is a separate entity, and do their own thing. Drowning is an immediate send. They'd have requested assistance from another area given the details, or it might have been coastguard in the other heli (I've not looked at the pictures) just due to the numbers involved.
This was out of our area so SECAMB might have slightly different policies in place, but the theory is similar. Two trucks and a TL per person in arrest.
Police would have been deployed. Coastguard would have been on scene, and fire potentially if required. 4 drownings would be pretty close to a critical incident.
Everyday is a school day.
S100HP said:
I can help with this, as I dispatch ambulances for a living.
You normally need two trucks per person for a cardiac arrest, so given the details that would be 8 ideally. You'd then have at least one operational commander for an incident like this, so that makes 8 trucks and a car.
HART would then be deployed as it's a water incident, and they travel in a 4, so that's now 12 (Hart looks like ambulances). The tac advisor should also be sent, so that's also another car.
The helicopter is a separate entity, and do their own thing. Drowning is an immediate send. They'd have requested assistance from another area given the details, or it might have been coastguard in the other heli (I've not looked at the pictures) just due to the numbers involved.
This was out of our area so SECAMB might have slightly different policies in place, but the theory is similar. Two trucks and a TL per person in arrest.
Police would have been deployed. Coastguard would have been on scene, and fire potentially if required. 4 drownings would be pretty close to a critical incident.
Thanks for the reply. There were two air ambulances and one coastguard ac from Solent.You normally need two trucks per person for a cardiac arrest, so given the details that would be 8 ideally. You'd then have at least one operational commander for an incident like this, so that makes 8 trucks and a car.
HART would then be deployed as it's a water incident, and they travel in a 4, so that's now 12 (Hart looks like ambulances). The tac advisor should also be sent, so that's also another car.
The helicopter is a separate entity, and do their own thing. Drowning is an immediate send. They'd have requested assistance from another area given the details, or it might have been coastguard in the other heli (I've not looked at the pictures) just due to the numbers involved.
This was out of our area so SECAMB might have slightly different policies in place, but the theory is similar. Two trucks and a TL per person in arrest.
Police would have been deployed. Coastguard would have been on scene, and fire potentially if required. 4 drownings would be pretty close to a critical incident.
Foss62 said:
It s another very strange event, as apparently the family were Palestinian refugees. These beach tragedies seem to be disproportionately affecting ethnic minorities.
I m wondering if there some missing piece of life experience or behavioural connection? Maybe time for a public information campaign?
From what I remember of the previous incident, parts of the beach drop away very sharply, so somebody walking out for a paddle could easily slide out of their depth, and then if none of them can swim the incident would spiral.I m wondering if there some missing piece of life experience or behavioural connection? Maybe time for a public information campaign?
FredericRobinson said:
What s the reason for 2 ambulances for one cardiac arrest?
I'm not medical, but if ambulances are usually crewed with two people, and given one of them will be driving then any incident which requires two people on a patient on the way to hospital will need more resources. A cardiac arrest will need one person doing chest compressions and then one person doing the rest - bag valve mask, the other stuff. There are chest compression machines available designed to save that manpower but I don't think they are used in the UK - and they are £10k+ eachS100HP said:
I can help with this, as I dispatch ambulances for a living.
You normally need two trucks per person for a cardiac arrest, so given the details that would be 8 ideally. You'd then have at least one operational commander for an incident like this, so that makes 8 trucks and a car.
HART would then be deployed as it's a water incident, and they travel in a 4, so that's now 12 (Hart looks like ambulances). The tac advisor should also be sent, so that's also another car.
The helicopter is a separate entity, and do their own thing. Drowning is an immediate send. They'd have requested assistance from another area given the details, or it might have been coastguard in the other heli (I've not looked at the pictures) just due to the numbers involved.
This was out of our area so SECAMB might have slightly different policies in place, but the theory is similar. Two trucks and a TL per person in arrest.
Police would have been deployed. Coastguard would have been on scene, and fire potentially if required. 4 drownings would be pretty close to a critical incident.
Thanks for taking time to answerYou normally need two trucks per person for a cardiac arrest, so given the details that would be 8 ideally. You'd then have at least one operational commander for an incident like this, so that makes 8 trucks and a car.
HART would then be deployed as it's a water incident, and they travel in a 4, so that's now 12 (Hart looks like ambulances). The tac advisor should also be sent, so that's also another car.
The helicopter is a separate entity, and do their own thing. Drowning is an immediate send. They'd have requested assistance from another area given the details, or it might have been coastguard in the other heli (I've not looked at the pictures) just due to the numbers involved.
This was out of our area so SECAMB might have slightly different policies in place, but the theory is similar. Two trucks and a TL per person in arrest.
Police would have been deployed. Coastguard would have been on scene, and fire potentially if required. 4 drownings would be pretty close to a critical incident.
Some follow up questions if I may?
- what is HART? (Edit, I can probably Google that tbh, and just have - hazardous area response team)
- what's the operational reason for 2 ambulances to a cardiac arrest? Crew fatigue maybe?
Note these are generic questions about ambulance tasking, and I have no angle about this specific incident.
Thanks
Ian
Edited by Ian Geary on Wednesday 19th August 18:42
FredericRobinson said:
What s the reason for 2 ambulances for one cardiac arrest?
4 people onboard. One to do airway, one to do drugs, another to do CPR and another to operate defib and do other tasks. They rotate CPR too as it's exhausting doing it properly.You can run it with 3 but it's not ideal.
If they get ROSC you might need more hands to extricate the patient from the property, and then normally two clinicians will travel in the back with the PT, one drives the truck and the other drives the other truck up to hospital.
Gareth79 said:
Foss62 said:
It s another very strange event, as apparently the family were Palestinian refugees. These beach tragedies seem to be disproportionately affecting ethnic minorities.
I m wondering if there some missing piece of life experience or behavioural connection? Maybe time for a public information campaign?
From what I remember of the previous incident, parts of the beach drop away very sharply, so somebody walking out for a paddle could easily slide out of their depth, and then if none of them can swim the incident would spiral.I m wondering if there some missing piece of life experience or behavioural connection? Maybe time for a public information campaign?
S100HP said:
4 people onboard. One to do airway, one to do drugs, another to do CPR and another to operate defib and do other tasks. They rotate CPR too as it's exhausting doing it properly.
You can run it with 3 but it's not ideal.
If they get ROSC you might need more hands to extricate the patient from the property, and then normally two clinicians will travel in the back with the PT, one drives the truck and the other drives the other truck up to hospital.
Thanks, was wondering if someone administering CPR would then be expected to jump in the cab and drive, presumably ideally notYou can run it with 3 but it's not ideal.
If they get ROSC you might need more hands to extricate the patient from the property, and then normally two clinicians will travel in the back with the PT, one drives the truck and the other drives the other truck up to hospital.
Ian Geary said:
Thanks for taking time to answer
Some follow up questions if I may?
- what is HART?
- what's the operational reason for 2 ambulances to a cardiac arrest? Crew fatigue maybe?
Note these are generic questions about ambulance tasking, and I have no angle about this specific incident.
Thanks
Ian
HART - Hazardous Area Response Team.Some follow up questions if I may?
- what is HART?
- what's the operational reason for 2 ambulances to a cardiac arrest? Crew fatigue maybe?
Note these are generic questions about ambulance tasking, and I have no angle about this specific incident.
Thanks
Ian
They are sent to incidents in:
Confined Spaces or Heights: Collapsed buildings, trenches, scaffolding, or cranes.
Water-Related Incidents: Floods, fast-flowing rivers, or open water rescues
Hazardous Materials: Incidents involving toxic chemicals, gas leaks, or fires
Difficult Terrains: Mud, steep embankments, or complex transport environments like railway tracks
They have additional training and additional skills. They also have a mule (a wheelbarrow stretcher) and a Polaris (like a space buggy)
They look like ambulances, but have roller doors on the side, and are normally square rather than rounded. Ours are callsign ZZ(XXX) - I guess all HART are ZZ but not sure.
StevieBee said:
Others may have better insight but I believe it is standard practice when multiple people are reported as being in trouble to assume there are more than is reported so deploy resources on the basis of a worse case scenario. And I believe you can only get one patient in an Air Ambulance.
Yes - only one patient in an air ambulance helicopter. But it's also worth remembering that the air ambulance service isnt all about helicopters. It' also about providing at scene life saving treatment which is a step up from that which can be provided by a regular road ambulance crew. The air ambulance crew and the kit they carry is the really important thing.I'm a former patient and now volunteer and fund raiser for an air ambulance charity which is 90% funded by voluntary donation. I'm very proud to be associated with whatever help they provided for this incident.
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