The Best Porsche 911 Ever: 6 Icons, 1 Winner!
The Best Porsche 911 Ever: 6 Icons, 1 Winner!
Author
Discussion

Jones the cat

Original Poster:

1,035 posts

19 months

Sunday 21st June
quotequote all
Place your bets!



....don't scroll down to avoid spoilers

Edited by Jones the cat on Sunday 21st June 17:10

ChrisW.

8,082 posts

282 months

Monday 22nd June
quotequote all
Thought so !! Too much choice smile

Jones the cat

Original Poster:

1,035 posts

19 months

Monday 22nd June
quotequote all
ChrisW. said:
Thought so !! Too much choice smile
The winner was what I thought it would be too.

isaldiri

24,264 posts

195 months

Tuesday 23rd June
quotequote all
Given the 993RS represents a totally different era of car to what Bovingdon would have more or less grown up driving and getting used to (which would be much more of the 996/991 era cars), it's doing awfully well to up there. No doubting Bovingdon can drive but he seriously needs to man up re the 997 gt3 clutch - it's heavier than a 991 but it's far from being really stiff and if a countach is like that, then the lambo has a much overrated stiff clutch....

TDT

6,162 posts

146 months

Tuesday 23rd June
quotequote all
I really enjoyed the video.

Jethro is my favourite automotive journalist, by far… he is a brilliant communicator, a fantastic storyteller and he is completely unashamed, unafraid and unapologetic about being a nerd and getting right into the technical details of the car and the driving.
He doesnt feel the need to play to the crowd and dumb things down.

Perfect choice.

clubsport

7,408 posts

285 months

Tuesday 23rd June
quotequote all
An entertaining video, I was surprised at some of the details of cars and production numbers were clearly incorrect......

Just one example.....he quoted 189 3.2 CS made, when recognised PCGB and factory figures atate 340 cars including 53 UK Rhd examples..

It wasn't hard to predict the result, on the occasion I drove one, I found it delivered slightly under my high expectation, maybe it's the size & weight?

Despite my obvious pre conceived bias going into the video wink , I think the original 2.7 RS just nudges the title for me, never owned one, but driven a few that have always left me wanting more...maybe one day? smile

Yellow491

3,378 posts

146 months

Tuesday 23rd June
quotequote all
TDT said:
I really enjoyed the video.

Jethro is my favourite automotive journalist, by far he is a brilliant communicator, a fantastic storyteller and he is completely unashamed, unafraid and unapologetic about being a nerd and getting right into the technical details of the car and the driving.
He doesnt feel the need to play to the crowd and dumb things down.

Perfect choice.
He dribbles on a fair a bit,he misses out the poor steering feel and the better car would be the 3.8.
The st knocks the socks off it with its front end and steering feel,ride comfort,levels of grip etc.

TDT

6,162 posts

146 months

Tuesday 23rd June
quotequote all
Lol. I guess we all like different things!

3.8 is overlooked though.

LiamH66

1,095 posts

118 months

Wednesday 24th June
quotequote all
I dipped in and out, and he seemed to love most of the cars I've aspired to over the years. Guessing not much not to like, worth a longer watch when I have less ironing to get on with.

Criticism of the S/T seemed to be that it isn't a GT3 or GT3 RS. But 992 GT3 and GT3 RS didn't make the cut for the test? All slightly moot and academic, as they are all pretty good in their own way. But I'd love to know what a 992 GT3 RS is like on the road compared to all he drove. They are epic when trying to keep up with them on the track.

Just bought my first 911, after a very long time wanting to make the leap. Doesn't appear to be in the top 15, but seems pretty good to me so far. Current GT3 Touring.

I'll submit a boringly long post once it is run in, and another once I've had it on track. It's not an S/T, but borrows a bit from it. Definitely different enough from my GT4 RS that it feels worth owning both for a while yet.

2.7 RS and 964 RS remain the dream cars for when I want them as a hobby, rather than need them as transport that can do track days. Probably more to do with my age than how good they really are. 993 might get added to the list...

Liam


ChrisW.

8,082 posts

282 months

Wednesday 24th June
quotequote all
The 993 was the stripped out Clubsport variant as was the 997RS 4.0 ( I recall that Chris Harris drove one in the Nurburgring 24 hours and did rather well ?)

Current RS 911 have become rather wide for road use .... of the 997RS I drove all variants at Silverstone and felt that the extra torque of the 4.0l was well worthwhile ... though the 997 GT2RS was even better !

I own a '73 2.4S with the engine rebuilt in the last few years by Dave Sunderland (looked after Jack Tordoff's rally cars in the day) and I never cease to be impressed by how swift a car this is and how nimble taking the straightest lines though country roads ... in some ways the cars aren't that much better on the road for fun ...

Edited by ChrisW. on Wednesday 24th June 08:42

Mark A S

2,074 posts

215 months

Wednesday 24th June
quotequote all
Enjoyed that smile

Not driven any of those exact models, but did have back in the 80’s a road/rally/race stripped out 2.8 RS then later RSR replica, which when I originally had it was V similar in spec to the 2.7RS but with a bit more grunt. I recall it was, even as mainly a comp car, a complete hoot to drive, wonderful steering, traction, visibility etc as mentioned the compactness of it was perfect for our roads, then and more so now with the state of them!

Fortunate now to own a 7.2 GT3, so can relate to the 4.0 RS and pleased it came out tops, they are amazing cars.

Out of that line up, the GT2 RS would be the one I would like to drive the most,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I think!

housemouse

308 posts

210 months

Wednesday 24th June
quotequote all
If you're going to make a 30 min video and focus on six versions, there's absolutely no way you will keep everyone happy. My favourite didn't get driven and I certainly think it's better than a few included in the test I have driven. But that's inevitable

Jethro is probably the best generalist enthusiast car journo out there right now. Enthusiasm isn't forced, knowledge is about as good as you can expect from someone who doesn't literally just cover 911s, communicates really well, and as someone says, doesn't dumb anything down while remaining pretty accessible. Frankly, I'd like to see anyone talking him down to better!

Slippydiff

16,207 posts

250 months

Wednesday 24th June
quotequote all
Well, I gave up after the 4.0L 997 GT3 RS review.

As Yellow said, waaay too much hyperbole with a side salad of flannel followed by a dessert of journalistic BS prose. All that nonsense about needing to be on top of your game to drive the 993 RS, and manage its single mass flywheel.
Drivel.

I've just watched a 2013 Car & Driver video of Jethro's on the Lamborghini Gallardo LP550-2 to see if I'd forgotten how he speaks.

Back then JB didn't have such an awful and grating "Gangsta" speech impediment ...
Too much time spent across the pond trying to impress the Yanks ? Or perhaps he's taken a leaf out of Magnus Walker's dropped consonant, faux American, mid-Atlantic accent playbook.

Give him his due though, he'd done a reasonable job on his homework, although the 3.2 Carrera Club Sport didn't get the impact bumper delete seen on the prototype he stood next to, and the 964 RS didn't get front or rear wheelarches any more flared than the C2/C4 (granted they were rolled, but not flared).

The seam welding that every journalist has to crowbar into a piece on the 964 RS, in reality was limited to a few sections of seam welding around the rear trailing arm pick up points and rear seat pans to stop them fatiguing/cracking due to the harder bushings in the trailing arms. A full-on competition shell seam welding job it was not ...

997.2 4.0L GT3 RS Rose jointed suspension ? Sounds racecar impressive, but it was nothing more than a pair of spherical bearing equipped rear toe arms. Each of which now cost a punchy £1100.

You could buy a pair of the beautifully engineered Cup items from Porsche Motorsport for £600, and they'd have been quickly/easily adjustable too (and looked "Motorsport" into the bargain)

I'll forego JB's lazy, dropped consonant, Gangsta speech impediment for Henry Catchpole's lilting tones every time ...
But that's just my opinion smile





Edited by Slippydiff on Wednesday 24th June 16:31

Yellow491

3,378 posts

146 months

Wednesday 24th June
quotequote all
Slippydiff said:
Well, I gave up after the 4.0L 997 GT3 RS review.

As Yellow said, waaay too much hyperbole with a side salad of flannel followed by a dessert of journalistic BS prose. All that nonsense about needing to be on top of your game to drive the 993 RS, and manage its single mass flywheel.
Drivel.

I've just watched a 2013 Car & Driver video of Jethro's on the Lamborghini Gallardo LP550-2 to see if I'd forgotten how he speaks.

Back then JB didn't have such an awful and grating "Gangsta" speech impediment ...
Too much time spent across the pond trying to impress the Yanks ? Or perhaps he's taken a leaf out of Magnus Walker's dropped consonant, faux American, mid-Atlantic accent playbook.

Give him his due though, he'd done a reasonable job on his homework, although the 3.2 Carrera Club Sport didn't get the impact bumper delete seen on the prototype he stood next to, and the 964 RS didn't get front or rear wheelarches any more flared than the C2/C4 (granted they were rolled, but not flared).

The seam welding that every journalist has to crowbar into a piece on the 964 RS, in reality was limited to a few sections of seam welding around the rear trailing arm pick up points and rear seat pans to stop them fatiguing/cracking due to the harder bushings in the trailing arms. A full-on competition shell seam welding job it was not ...

997.2 4.0L GT3 RS Rose jointed suspension ? Sounds racecar impressive, but it was nothing more than a pair of spherical bearing equipped rear toe arms. Each of which now cost a punchy £1100.

You could buy a pair of the beautifully engineered Cup items from Porsche Motorsport for £600, and they'd have been quickly/easily adjustable too (and looked "Motorsport" into the bargain)

I'll forego JB's lazy, dropped consonant, Gangsta speech impediment for Henry Catchpole's lilting tones every time ...
But that's just my opinion smile





Edited by Slippydiff on Wednesday 24th June 16:31
Trouble is slippy these journalists rarely live with a car longer than a day or two,where as some of us have lived and breathed these cars for years,they dream up a reason to write about a few cars for a magazine etc.
The 993 rs/cs was/is the biggest pussy cat out there and a real occasion to drive unlike the now fabled 4.0rs.The 2.7rs can still keep a lot of cars on B roads honest,the 964 has earned its place in porsche history,though never my favourite.
The st has truly moved things on over the automatic gt2;)

Grantstown

1,328 posts

114 months

Wednesday 24th June
quotequote all
It’s fun journalism and much more interesting than most online content.

There are so many caveats and in particular that these cars were reviewed on smooth dry roads. Also, as said above, these cars are taken out for a quick drive rather than a long term test vehicle.

Whether the 4.0RS is the ultimate 911 is an easy question to answer as there is no such thing. He actually criticised its horrible steering wheel, excessively high seating position, awkwardly low gear shift and excessive bulk compared to the air cooled cars! Despite these points it was his favourite.

It’s always a bit of fun trying to find the best of the bunch so why not try.

Slippydiff

16,207 posts

250 months

Thursday 25th June
quotequote all
Grantstown said:
It s fun journalism and much more interesting than most online content.

There are so many caveats and in particular that these cars were reviewed on smooth dry roads. Also, as said above, these cars are taken out for a quick drive rather than a long term test vehicle.

Whether the 4.0RS is the ultimate 911 is an easy question to answer as there is no such thing. He actually criticised its horrible steering wheel, excessively high seating position, awkwardly low gear shift and excessive bulk compared to the air cooled cars! Despite these points it was his favourite.

It s always a bit of fun trying to find the best of the bunch so why not try.
Agreed. That steering wheel is probably my favourite steering wheel out of all the 996/997 cars.

He's spot on about the seats, I had them in a 997.1 GT3 and a 987 Cayman R. I hated them.

997.1 GT3 gearshift weight was frequently criticised for being overly heavy and its throw too short. Not so much the 997.2 GT variant/s.
By Porsche standards, whose control weight consistency is up there with the very best, it was a rare faux pas.

Heavy clutch ? Only because it's been abused my numerous journalists and was probably well worn and past its best.

But as Yellow said, driving a car for an hour isn't the same as owning it and clocking up thousands of miles behind the wheel in all conditions, and honing it to your tastes from a geometry set up, tyre preference etc, perspective.

The suggestion you can still feel the 2.7 RS' DNA in the 997.2 4.0L GT3 RS was rather pushing the bounds of believability.
I've driven a 2.7 RS, owned several 964 RS's, a 993 RS, several 996 GT3's and a couple of 997.1 GT3's, and rest assured the 997.1 GT3 felt nothing like a 2.7RS in any way shape or form. So unless they did something very clever with the 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0L, I'm dubious you could feel the earlier cars DNA in the later one ..

A fun review ? I guess so, but an accurate insight into them, hmmm, colour me less than convinced.

Mark A S

2,074 posts

215 months

Thursday 25th June
quotequote all
Slippydiff said:
Heavy clutch ? Only because it's been abused my numerous journalists and was probably well worn and past its best.

The suggestion you can still feel the 2.7 RS' DNA in the 997.2 4.0L GT3 RS was rather pushing the bounds of believability.
I've driven a 2.7 RS, owned several 964 RS's, a 993 RS, several 996 GT3's and a couple of 997.1 GT3's, and rest assured the 997.1 GT3 felt nothing like a 2.7RS in any way shape or form. So unless they did something very clever with the 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0L, I'm dubious you could feel the earlier cars DNA in the later one ..
.
Glad you said that about the clutch as i reed that quite often about 997 GT3's and in my experience its not heavy at all, certainly not light either, which is a good thing.

Have to slightly disagree with you re the DNA of a 2.7RS to the 997 GT3, first time i drove my 7.2 GT3 it immediately reminded me of my 2.8 RS later RSR replica i mentioned earlier, the view, the noise and the steering, even though it had been 36 years in between. Maybe my aging brain was playing tricks wink

isaldiri

24,264 posts

195 months

Thursday 25th June
quotequote all
Slippydiff said:
....
A fun review ? I guess so, but an accurate insight into them, hmmm, colour me less than convinced.
in fairness to bovingdon, i suppose as long as it fulfills the 'fun review' bit, that's exactly what the target market is for as car reviews exist for clicks and such rather than 'an accurate insight' and haven't provided that latter bit since forever tbh. it's mainly just spouting marketing platitudes with the occasional clickbaity opinion thrown in and mostly, one knows what the reviewer is going to say when the next review about the latest greatest thing comes again (no more understeer like the last one....?).

these things are never really going to change anyone's existing opinions I reckon anyway, those with a vested interest get cross their car didn't win or get selected or get enough credit and/or slag off the one that was picked, most viewers probably just idly watch it for nice cars on nice roads, bit of revvy sounds - one can't really be expecting much more tbh...

Edited by isaldiri on Thursday 25th June 10:30

Yellow491

3,378 posts

146 months

Thursday 25th June
quotequote all
Mark A S said:
Slippydiff said:
Heavy clutch ? Only because it's been abused my numerous journalists and was probably well worn and past its best.

The suggestion you can still feel the 2.7 RS' DNA in the 997.2 4.0L GT3 RS was rather pushing the bounds of believability.
I've driven a 2.7 RS, owned several 964 RS's, a 993 RS, several 996 GT3's and a couple of 997.1 GT3's, and rest assured the 997.1 GT3 felt nothing like a 2.7RS in any way shape or form. So unless they did something very clever with the 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0L, I'm dubious you could feel the earlier cars DNA in the later one ..
.
Glad you said that about the clutch as i reed that quite often about 997 GT3's and in my experience its not heavy at all, certainly not light either, which is a good thing.

Have to slightly disagree with you re the DNA of a 2.7RS to the 997 GT3, first time i drove my 7.2 GT3 it immediately reminded me of my 2.8 RS later RSR replica i mentioned earlier, the view, the noise and the steering, even though it had been 36 years in between. Maybe my aging brain was playing tricks wink
I always found my 997 had a heavy clutch for my little legs,gear shift notchy,felt a heavy car,and poor feedback through the steering wheel especially in the wet.
Maybe its your ageing brainsmile i think its nothing like the daddy of the rs models.
Agree nothing wrong for fun,the heading clearly says the best 911 ever (for himself maybe.).
I see clarkeson loves the 992 gt3,for a change!

Slippydiff

16,207 posts

250 months

Thursday 25th June
quotequote all
Well, this is a tad embarrassing ... but everyday is a school day.
A fellow PH'er sent me a PM asking if I had a decent/reliable source detailing the suspension differences between 997.2 GT3, the GT RS 3.8 and the GT3 RS 4.0L.

I don't, but a slightly deeper dive found a thread on the ever-helpful Rennlist forum documenting the differences between the 3.8 and 4.0L cars, which mentions the spherical jointed rear suspension, and states the lower/camber arms, AKA coffin arms on the 4.0L are equipped with spherical joints, as well as the rear toe arms.

A check on my usual parts website shows the 3.8 split rear arms feature a rubber bush and cost 1300 gbp each, meanwhile the 4.0L items are 2300 gbp each, unfortunately there's no images of the 4.0L items.


But on the basis the 3.8 RS rear toe arms are the standard 997.2 items (with a rubber inner bush, that can clearly be seen in the images of said part) and the 4.0L items are 10 x the price and the inner bushing is clearly different, I think it safe to assume the 4.0L rear coffin arms do indeed feature spherical bearings.

I know the fitment of Cup rear toe links on my 996 GT2's made a very significant improvement in how the rear end felt and behaved when loaded up under "brisk" cornering conditions.

One would imagine the replacement of the rubber inner bushes in the 4.0L RS coffin arms with spherical bearings, in addition to the those in the rear toe arms, would further improve the consistency/feeling of the car in a similar manner.

As you were ... smile