Red Arrows to Display as a 7 Until Hawk Retirement (2030)

[48k]

The Red Arrows has announced they will now fly as a 7 formation instead of 9 formation for all displays up until the year 2030 when the Hawk retires.
There will be a nine-aircraft formation for King Charles III's birthday flypast in June and one month later to help the US mark its 250th anniversary of independence but they will fly with seven aircraft for other events from this year. This being done in order to "support the sustainable management of the fleet and prepare the team for a transition to a future aircraft type".

A reflection of how poor and slow the Hawk replacement project has been. Very sad.

[Chrisgr31]

It really is unbelievable that we struggle so much to procure anything.

[borcy]

I don't think there's a project to replace it, they just keep getting extended.

I'd be surprised if they make it to 2030.

[48k]

borcy said:

I don't think there's a project to replace it, they just keep getting extended.

There is a project to replace it, there are several options under consideration (one fewer following Aeralis going in to Administration last week) but it's very complex and the MOD seems unable to reconcile all the variables and come up with a decision which option to go for.

[borcy]

48k said:

borcy said:

I don't think there's a project to replace it, they just keep getting extended.

There is a project to replace it, there are several options under consideration (one fewer following Aeralis going in to Administration last week) but it's very complex and the MOD seems unable to reconcile all the variables and come up with a decision which option to go for.

I didn't think it had even started because there's no budget for the replacement.

[48k]

borcy said:

48k said:

borcy said:

I don't think there's a project to replace it, they just keep getting extended.

There is a project to replace it, there are several options under consideration (one fewer following Aeralis going in to Administration last week) but it's very complex and the MOD seems unable to reconcile all the variables and come up with a decision which option to go for.

I didn't think it had even started because there's no budget for the replacement.

Budget (Defence Investment Plan) is one of the variables
As is actually coming to a decision on the requirements for fast jet training. It's pretty hard to decide which way to go if you can't even decide what you want

[nordboy]

Surely they need to have something in place by now or very soon in order to fulfil a 2030 delivery date for new jets?

Build, testing etc is going to take a fair while I would think? Is this going to be another procurement debacle like so many other are, that means that it'll be 2035+ before they have new jets?

[borcy]

48k said:

Budget (Defence Investment Plan) is one of the variables
As is actually coming to a decision on the requirements for fast jet training. It's pretty hard to decide which way to go if you can't even decide what you want

If there's no budget then there's no real plan to replace it. Obviously at some point they'll have to decide, replace them or just bin them off.

[greygoose]

nordboy said:

Is this going to be another procurement debacle like so many other?

Almost certainly yes, that is what the MOD does.

[SodiumThiopental]

The procurement of a replacement has been complicated a lot by Brexit. There are some decent options, the best of which is probably the Italian Leonardo M-346 Master. However the U.K. isn t in the Euro zone anymore, which increases an already complicated process’s complexity massively.

[48k]

borcy said:

48k said:

Budget (Defence Investment Plan) is one of the variables
As is actually coming to a decision on the requirements for fast jet training. It's pretty hard to decide which way to go if you can't even decide what you want

If there's no budget then there's no real plan to replace it. Obviously at some point they'll have to decide, replace them or just bin them off.

The MoD need to train fast jet pilots after the Hawk has gone. They haven't decided how they are going to do that yet. The project to do that has been running for a while and has not yet concluded.

Edited by 48k on Saturday 23 May 09:35

[aeropilot]

nordboy said:

Surely they need to have something in place by now or very soon in order to fulfil a 2030 delivery date for new jets?

The RAF needs new jets for training, which are the Hawk T2's, which while in theory don't need to be replaced for another decade, they are so unreliable, that OSD needs to be brought forward, but the Treasury are holding their hands over their ears and going "La-la-la-not-listening"

They are not going to buy new jets just to keep the Reds going, which is why they will likely go on a long holiday until the decision is made about a Hawk T2 replacement, at which point, they may (may) buy enough jets to replace T2 and Reds T1A fleet, and Reds can be reactivated maybe in the mid 2030's.........
The world might be a very different place by then, and UK plc will be even more broke through ideological driven political incompetence, so my gut feeling is 2029 will be the Reds last season for good, and as someone said, they might not even last until then.

[ecsrobin]

T2 is contracted to 2033 but as of the end of last year this report is saying that T2 engine availability is fragile.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/britain-assessing-...

So it’s not just the reds that are having engine issues.

[aeropilot]

ecsrobin said:

T2 is contracted to 2033 but as of the end of last year this report is saying that T2 engine availability is fragile.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/britain-assessing-...

So it s not just the reds that are having engine issues.

Reds not having engine issues, they are just trying to prolong the life to get to end of 2029.

Hawk T2 engine issues are the real concern for RAF Training, and while the maintenance contract currently runs to 2033, the OSD of the T2 is still supposedly to be 2040. The assumption is there would be a new maintenance contract issued in 2033 to run through to OSD.
However, the RAF would like to bring forward the OSD of T2 instead, and sort out a replacement now (likely for entering service around 2033)

Again, Treasury and MOD are likely saying there's no money, and with still no publication of the Defence Investment Plan, getting close to 12 months after it was supposed to be published, that is paralyzing everything.....or rather doing the usual political 'kick the can down the road' and in 3 years time it will be someone else's problem.

[super7]

Assign a couple of typhoons to the Red ‘s to make up the numbers…. They would compliment the Hawks quite nicely and bring a different, more modern, feel to a display!

[aeropilot]

super7 said:

Assign a couple of typhoons to the Red s to make up the numbers . They would compliment the Hawks quite nicely and bring a different, more modern, feel to a display!

You think the RAF has spare Typhoon's knocking around for that......?

Especially now the Tranche 1's have all been retired.

[super7]

aeropilot said:

super7 said:

Assign a couple of typhoons to the Red s to make up the numbers . They would compliment the Hawks quite nicely and bring a different, more modern, feel to a display!

You think the RAF has spare Typhoon's knocking around for that......?

Especially now the Tranche 1's have all been retired.

They have at least 1 active for displays….