Has the litre-bike been tamed during the last decade?
Discussion
I’m surprised - really surprised - at how far ‘bikes seem to have come during the last 10 years. I’ve ridden since 1990 and have owned lots of different bikes during that time. After a (skiing injury) break from riding I’ve recently moved from a 2016 BMW S1000R to a 2024 BMW S1000XR, and I am surprised by just how different it is.
Hill start, headlights that really work, subtle traction control and engine management, an amazing quick-shifter. I can really feel the difference from my 2016 bike; the new one is more forgiving and (I suspect) far easier to ride quickly and safely. The quick-shifter alone is a revelation - perfect throttle blips on down-changes. I assume that there’’s some sort of slipper-clutch (not sure whether physical or achieved through electronics) as no squirm at all from the rear wheel downshifting at high revs. All those skills I’ve learned and honed over the years, now not needed…
My sense is that the big bikes of today are far more forgiving and easier to ride than the same bikes ten years ago. The tech surrounding their engines, drivetrains and chassis has advanced materially. It would be FAR safer for a new rider to hop on my 24XR than it would my 16R.
The litre-bike has been tamed during the last decade..?
Am I right?
Hill start, headlights that really work, subtle traction control and engine management, an amazing quick-shifter. I can really feel the difference from my 2016 bike; the new one is more forgiving and (I suspect) far easier to ride quickly and safely. The quick-shifter alone is a revelation - perfect throttle blips on down-changes. I assume that there’’s some sort of slipper-clutch (not sure whether physical or achieved through electronics) as no squirm at all from the rear wheel downshifting at high revs. All those skills I’ve learned and honed over the years, now not needed…
My sense is that the big bikes of today are far more forgiving and easier to ride than the same bikes ten years ago. The tech surrounding their engines, drivetrains and chassis has advanced materially. It would be FAR safer for a new rider to hop on my 24XR than it would my 16R.
The litre-bike has been tamed during the last decade..?
Am I right?
I have a 2008 Fireblade (no electronic aids at all). New one has more power but more electrickery. Can't comment if it's easier or not, suspect it'll still bite hard
You could probably argue the same for supercars. New ones are more forgiving than old ones but can still make a fool of you
You could probably argue the same for supercars. New ones are more forgiving than old ones but can still make a fool of you
I'd say so...
In 2014 I had a Daytona 675... No electronics, not even ABS. Savagely uncomfortable, really aggressive riding position. Took me a long time to perfect riding it quickly on the road - in part being fit enough to be comfortable to press hard on it! Often reminded it could go very wrong if not on the ball.
Years later, after a long break from bikes - fatter and more unfit, a 2015 S1000R came along. Far more comfortable, ABS, traction control, anti-wheelie etc. Got confident quicker than expected, given my time off bikes - but fairly forgiving. Yet, ridden year-round, it still reminded you sometimes you could really f
k it up.
Now, on an even more powerful Ducati Multistrada V4S, and it's blown me away - able to ride the wheels off it confidently in deepest darkest winter. Even more comfortable, which helps, but the grip & power delivery seems to make it way easier to use all the beans, and when you can't, the electronics are unobtrusive and very effective - amazing how ham-fisted you can be. Rarely does it remind you how badly it could go wrong. Good, and bad, I guess!
My friend has a 2022 S1000RR, insanely powerful, 207 bhp I think - and a less aggressive riding position than the Daytona, with amazing electronics. A definite step up in both performance and usability of superbikes since what I was riding in 2014 (incl. the superbikes) - however, the supersport class (675 equivalent) has in the meantime become less powerful, more electronic, and underwhelming - so i'm glad I bought my old 675 back and will hang on to it, last of a dying breed. I'd like to put an equivalent analogue superbike next to it, but it would get so little use that a modern one would make more sense really.
In 2014 I had a Daytona 675... No electronics, not even ABS. Savagely uncomfortable, really aggressive riding position. Took me a long time to perfect riding it quickly on the road - in part being fit enough to be comfortable to press hard on it! Often reminded it could go very wrong if not on the ball.
Years later, after a long break from bikes - fatter and more unfit, a 2015 S1000R came along. Far more comfortable, ABS, traction control, anti-wheelie etc. Got confident quicker than expected, given my time off bikes - but fairly forgiving. Yet, ridden year-round, it still reminded you sometimes you could really f
k it up.Now, on an even more powerful Ducati Multistrada V4S, and it's blown me away - able to ride the wheels off it confidently in deepest darkest winter. Even more comfortable, which helps, but the grip & power delivery seems to make it way easier to use all the beans, and when you can't, the electronics are unobtrusive and very effective - amazing how ham-fisted you can be. Rarely does it remind you how badly it could go wrong. Good, and bad, I guess!
My friend has a 2022 S1000RR, insanely powerful, 207 bhp I think - and a less aggressive riding position than the Daytona, with amazing electronics. A definite step up in both performance and usability of superbikes since what I was riding in 2014 (incl. the superbikes) - however, the supersport class (675 equivalent) has in the meantime become less powerful, more electronic, and underwhelming - so i'm glad I bought my old 675 back and will hang on to it, last of a dying breed. I'd like to put an equivalent analogue superbike next to it, but it would get so little use that a modern one would make more sense really.
Edited by 13aines on Wednesday 18th February 15:34
I think they have been dumbed down, now every jockey thinks they can ride one properly, bring back the old days when litre bikes were for real men, and were scary old things that would bite, hard!
I remember my first ride on a GSXR1100 , it scared the st out of me, but when I got on a S1000RR it felt like child’s play.
I remember my first ride on a GSXR1100 , it scared the s
t out of me, but when I got on a S1000RR it felt like child’s play.
)Jazoli said:
I think they have been dumbed down, now every jockey thinks they can ride one properly, bring back the old days when litre bikes were for real men, and were scary old things that would bite, hard!
I remember my first ride on a GSXR1100 , it scared the st out of me, but when I got on a S1000RR it felt like child s play.
Some of that could just be down to tyre tech but I do agree that the electronics have tamed huge power. I remember my first ride on a GSXR1100 , it scared the s
t out of me, but when I got on a S1000RR it felt like child s play.As I'm fairly old, well, not really at 52, I do have an opinion on this as I was there in the first instance and still here now!
Dumbed down litre bikes, no, not at all, safer yes, and more easily accessible to the performance due to having the electronics in place to be able to use them.
But the thing is you can't use the performance on the road, you just can't, no matter how good you think you are, you are using 50% of what the bike can do.
Put a good rider on a 95 fireblade and he will ruin an average dude on the latest machine with the modern tech, but maybe average dude will be safer, the good rider may have less margin for error.
I listened to a podcast recently where Kyle Ryde talked about track day riders and fast guys, he said just get a 600 and learn to ride it fast, not electronics, just learn. And when it's knackered, get the motor refreshed and do it again.
Nobody needs a litre bike really, but nothing gets close for the shove.
Dumbed down litre bikes, no, not at all, safer yes, and more easily accessible to the performance due to having the electronics in place to be able to use them.
But the thing is you can't use the performance on the road, you just can't, no matter how good you think you are, you are using 50% of what the bike can do.
Put a good rider on a 95 fireblade and he will ruin an average dude on the latest machine with the modern tech, but maybe average dude will be safer, the good rider may have less margin for error.
I listened to a podcast recently where Kyle Ryde talked about track day riders and fast guys, he said just get a 600 and learn to ride it fast, not electronics, just learn. And when it's knackered, get the motor refreshed and do it again.
Nobody needs a litre bike really, but nothing gets close for the shove.
ive been riding since the 80's so grew up with no abs/traction etc.
Ive just bought back my old carbed R1 that i sold to a friend, one of the first ones , and after years of newer faster bikes i would say the R1 defiantly gets the adrenaline flowing more than the new stuff, there is a certain rush knowing any wrong move will kill you.
I have a newish bmw1000 but find i use the old yam more, as its more fun to ride.
Is the bmw quicker, hell yes
Is the old bike more rewarding, definatly
Both are way to fast for the road tho, but thats kinda the point.
Ive yet to take them both to the track together, but will in the summer, be interesting to see how much faster the bm is over the yam.
Ive just bought back my old carbed R1 that i sold to a friend, one of the first ones , and after years of newer faster bikes i would say the R1 defiantly gets the adrenaline flowing more than the new stuff, there is a certain rush knowing any wrong move will kill you.
I have a newish bmw1000 but find i use the old yam more, as its more fun to ride.
Is the bmw quicker, hell yes
Is the old bike more rewarding, definatly
Both are way to fast for the road tho, but thats kinda the point.
Ive yet to take them both to the track together, but will in the summer, be interesting to see how much faster the bm is over the yam.
I think they ALL have to be honest.
It's not just the fact they have tech but that said tech has come on so much.
You can be incredibly lazy and not have to think so much/be as smooth as you would otherwise have to be when you've got things like lean sensitive ABS/TC.
It can be jarring when you've gotten used to all the tech and get onto something much more basic (even with significantly less power) and forget that it can still bite you.....
It's not just the fact they have tech but that said tech has come on so much.
You can be incredibly lazy and not have to think so much/be as smooth as you would otherwise have to be when you've got things like lean sensitive ABS/TC.
It can be jarring when you've gotten used to all the tech and get onto something much more basic (even with significantly less power) and forget that it can still bite you.....
I think its safe to say, they are very much safer now. But, I feel it does blunt your instincts/reactions if you're not careful and that is particularly important if you still ride the older stuff.
I tend to keep all the TC intervention systems on minimum and any wheelie control off so I still get the seat in the pants twitches and messaging when you've overdone it but it is nice to have the last line of defence safety net. When I get back on my older bikes, the absence of them can be quite noticeable.
As I get older I'm probably grateful for them. What is a pity is the emissions nonsense that comes on the newer bikes, they just don't feel like they are running free and the sounds they make can feel a little contrived/fashioned rather than natural. Where the electronic systems give great control over the engine tune, that has been used for other purposes, riding a carb'd 750 feels wonderfully smooth and full bodied by comparison. Be nice to see them run a bit richer but these are the days of economy and emissions, the power is there, but the way it is delivered is a bit too controlled and that diminishes the experience a little bit imho making them feel thrashy and harsh at higher revs and jerky in transitions/lacking torque and smoothness at lower rpms.
But that's fine, because it feeds back into the relevancy of the older stuff, different experiences for each era. Maybe the fondness is in the familiarity of the old school stuff, I wonder if younger riders riding old bikes would find them a bit slow and gluggy lol
I tend to keep all the TC intervention systems on minimum and any wheelie control off so I still get the seat in the pants twitches and messaging when you've overdone it but it is nice to have the last line of defence safety net. When I get back on my older bikes, the absence of them can be quite noticeable.
As I get older I'm probably grateful for them. What is a pity is the emissions nonsense that comes on the newer bikes, they just don't feel like they are running free and the sounds they make can feel a little contrived/fashioned rather than natural. Where the electronic systems give great control over the engine tune, that has been used for other purposes, riding a carb'd 750 feels wonderfully smooth and full bodied by comparison. Be nice to see them run a bit richer but these are the days of economy and emissions, the power is there, but the way it is delivered is a bit too controlled and that diminishes the experience a little bit imho making them feel thrashy and harsh at higher revs and jerky in transitions/lacking torque and smoothness at lower rpms.
But that's fine, because it feeds back into the relevancy of the older stuff, different experiences for each era. Maybe the fondness is in the familiarity of the old school stuff, I wonder if younger riders riding old bikes would find them a bit slow and gluggy lol
doogalman said:
Like modern cars the older generations are more fun because it s you in control!
That very much depends on what is your definition of fun.My definition does not include a higher risk of death/injury simply because I slightly misjudged my use of performance (throttle, brakes or handling).
We all know of otherwise good and experienced riders who have ended up in an accident because of a little bit of over enthusiasm/misjudgement on bikes without the technology, where they would have been fine in the same circumstance on bikes with the technology.
I have a 1999 Fireblade, a 2009 V-Twin Tuono 1000r and a 2010 675 Street Triple R.
The Blade is hugely engaging but old and in need of some suspension TLC. It almost always makes me grin but ALWAYS makes me know I'm mortal. I have the urge to master it.
The Tuono is a monster. Way better than you would expect it to be, hugely engaging, fantastic chassis, great suspension and Brembo brakes. Not quite as focussed as the Blade, but almost always as much fun and frequently more enjoyable. Easier to ride.
The Street Triple R is another league in many ways. Telepathic handling, superb suspension, fantastic chassis and a very refined and eager engine. Super easy to ride.
But I think I prefer the less refined Blade and the bonkers Tuono.
None of them have any electronic aids - but if the Blade had traction control and decent suspension (work in progress) combined with the same level of old school rawness I'd be very happy.
I have never ridden a big bike that is newer than 2010, but my instincts tell me that such a bike would be WAY more planted, CONSIDERABLY easier to ride, FAR smother and MUCH safer - but possibly a lot less engaging at vaguely sensible speeds.
I'm usually wrong about these things though and truth be told my budget probably dictates my thinking here - I can't afford to find out just now!
The Blade is hugely engaging but old and in need of some suspension TLC. It almost always makes me grin but ALWAYS makes me know I'm mortal. I have the urge to master it.
The Tuono is a monster. Way better than you would expect it to be, hugely engaging, fantastic chassis, great suspension and Brembo brakes. Not quite as focussed as the Blade, but almost always as much fun and frequently more enjoyable. Easier to ride.
The Street Triple R is another league in many ways. Telepathic handling, superb suspension, fantastic chassis and a very refined and eager engine. Super easy to ride.
But I think I prefer the less refined Blade and the bonkers Tuono.
None of them have any electronic aids - but if the Blade had traction control and decent suspension (work in progress) combined with the same level of old school rawness I'd be very happy.
I have never ridden a big bike that is newer than 2010, but my instincts tell me that such a bike would be WAY more planted, CONSIDERABLY easier to ride, FAR smother and MUCH safer - but possibly a lot less engaging at vaguely sensible speeds.
I'm usually wrong about these things though and truth be told my budget probably dictates my thinking here - I can't afford to find out just now!
NITO said:
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What is a pity is the emissions nonsense that comes on the newer bikes, they just don't feel like they are running free and the sounds they make can feel a little contrived/fashioned rather than natural. Where the electronic systems give great control over the engine tune, that has been used for other purposes, riding a carb'd 750 feels wonderfully smooth and full bodied by comparison. Be nice to see them run a bit richer but these are the days of economy and emissions, the power is there, but the way it is delivered is a bit too controlled and that diminishes the experience a little bit imho making them feel thrashy and harsh at higher revs and jerky in transitions/lacking torque and smoothness at lower rpms.
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Interesting post. Can you get a modern bike remapped such that it pays less heed to the environmental regs and runs richer/better? I appreciate this may cause warranty/MOT issues, but is it technically possible?What is a pity is the emissions nonsense that comes on the newer bikes, they just don't feel like they are running free and the sounds they make can feel a little contrived/fashioned rather than natural. Where the electronic systems give great control over the engine tune, that has been used for other purposes, riding a carb'd 750 feels wonderfully smooth and full bodied by comparison. Be nice to see them run a bit richer but these are the days of economy and emissions, the power is there, but the way it is delivered is a bit too controlled and that diminishes the experience a little bit imho making them feel thrashy and harsh at higher revs and jerky in transitions/lacking torque and smoothness at lower rpms.
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WindyCommon said:
NITO said:
What is a pity is the emissions nonsense that comes on the newer bikes, they just don't feel like they are running free and the sounds they make can feel a little contrived/fashioned rather than natural. Where the electronic systems give great control over the engine tune, that has been used for other purposes, riding a carb'd 750 feels wonderfully smooth and full bodied by comparison. Be nice to see them run a bit richer but these are the days of economy and emissions, the power is there, but the way it is delivered is a bit too controlled and that diminishes the experience a little bit imho making them feel thrashy and harsh at higher revs and jerky in transitions/lacking torque and smoothness at lower rpms.
Having some big power slides on gravel I didn’t see with the tc on a high level on a 2022 bike and, the same one coming up hard enough to hit the tank into my chest with the anti wheelie on, I don’t lean on modern electronics.
I think they do add an element of safety especially abs but they haven’t tamed bikes. They have made 200bhp rideable by fat middle age blokes though.
I think they do add an element of safety especially abs but they haven’t tamed bikes. They have made 200bhp rideable by fat middle age blokes though.
trickywoo said:
Having some big power slides on gravel I didn t see with the tc on a high level on a 2022 bike and, the same one coming up hard enough to hit the tank into my chest with the anti wheelie on, I don t lean on modern electronics.
I think they do add an element of safety especially abs but they haven t tamed bikes. They have made 200bhp rideable by fat middle age blokes though.
I was on my GSXR600 and accelerated up a dry slip road, it was at about 10,000 rpm when I crossed a patch of tarmac shaded by trees and it spun up to the 15,500 limiter! That focussed my mind.I think they do add an element of safety especially abs but they haven t tamed bikes. They have made 200bhp rideable by fat middle age blokes though.
You should borrow it for a vid some time actually as it’s the last of the 600s and makes an amazing noise.
Caddyshack said:
I was on my GSXR600 and accelerated up a dry slip road, it was at about 10,000 rpm when I crossed a patch of tarmac shaded by trees and it spun up to the 15,500 limiter! That focussed my mind.
You should borrow it for a vid some time actually as it s the last of the 600s and makes an amazing noise.
Might be mistaking me for Tim - I have the charisma of a wet towel so wouldn't get anywhere on youtube.You should borrow it for a vid some time actually as it s the last of the 600s and makes an amazing noise.
I did however, have a K4 GSXR 750 for 7 years and still miss the rush and sound over 9k rpm. Back on topic I had that as I thought I'd be less likely to go through a hedge vs the 1000. May or may not have been true but I never slid the back on the throttle. I did do 140 within 20 minutes of riding it for the first time though.
trickywoo said:
Might be mistaking me for Tim - I have the charisma of a wet towel so wouldn't get anywhere on youtube.
I did however, have a K4 GSXR 750 for 7 years and still miss the rush and sound over 9k rpm. Back on topic I had that as I thought I'd be less likely to go through a hedge vs the 1000. May or may not have been true but I never slid the back on the throttle. I did do 140 within 20 minutes of riding it for the first time though.
I thought doing 140 on your first ride was mandatory, no?I did however, have a K4 GSXR 750 for 7 years and still miss the rush and sound over 9k rpm. Back on topic I had that as I thought I'd be less likely to go through a hedge vs the 1000. May or may not have been true but I never slid the back on the throttle. I did do 140 within 20 minutes of riding it for the first time though.
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