Where have all the small, diesel family cars gone?

[Starsky80]

Currently looking for a new (to me) smallish family car to commute 300 miles per week in. My instinct is still to lean towards diesel, as a bit more relaxed/torquey on main roads/motorways compared to a small capacity petrol engine, probably 33-50% more economical like-for-like, which offsets the more expensive fuel, very cheap road fund license pre-2017 and just a better match generally to a slightly bigger car I would have thought?

Currently dividing my driving between my wife's 2015 Clio (0.9 TCe) and my parent's purple Citroen C3 Picasso with the 1.2 Puretech engine, which I am borrowing temporarily. The Citroen is a bit smoother but completely gutless and the Renault is shorter geared and a bit more nippy and fun but a little unrefined on a longer DC/motorway run. However, everything that I see available locally in my budget, which has crept from 4k to 5k to 6k due to a lack of choice is almost all petrol or if diesel, extremely high mileage. Looking at stuff like Renault Captur/mk4 Scenic/mk4 Megane, Peugeot 308, SEAT Leon/Skoda Octavia etc.

A lot of main dealers have PCP deals available on nearly new vehicles now, so I have also considered that as an option ie put down around 3k and 200 per month on a 15k or so car (probably a worse rate than new but that would require you to put down 8k on a 30k car), which I don't want to do. Don't laugh but I quite like the look of the newer Peugeot 208s/2008s and Vauxhall Corsas/Astra/Mokkas but they're all either electric, which I don't want as I don't have off-street parking or charging facilities at my work or with that crappy 1.2 Puretech engine, which surely you don't want? Diesels used to be a mainstay years ago on a Peugeot dealer forecourt but I asked the salesman and he said that we just don't buy/sell them any more, as demand is less than it was. I'm a little puzzled by this, as I would have thought that a diesel 208/2008 would be a pretty fine family car and the electric versions are hardly class-leading for range or reliability?

If I didn't go down the nearly new PCP route, I think that a 5-6k SEAT Leon FR TDI manual would be a pretty amazing family car (obviously all things being equal I would have the Cupra but they're a lot more expensive to run and insure than the diesels) but FR TDIs seem to be surprisingly rare (I'm talking about the mk3 Leon FR TDI, so 2013-2018ish).

I'm assuming that if I was looking at a more "premium" car (Audi/BMW/Mercedes/Land Rover) etc then there would still be a good selection of used/nearly new diesel cars and with some of the petrol alternatives such as the aforementioned Stellantis Puretech and Ford Ecoboost engines hardly being a paragon of reliability, why would the diesel versions still not be a compelling option?

[kambites]

The market for them was largely replaced by low pressure turbo petrols.

[SuperPav]

Any new (as in 5 year old) mini class cars diesel is all but done for. The aftertreatment required is so expensive that it doesn't make any sense, and frankly the economy benefits between a diesel and a small turbo petrol in that class of car is negligible, unless you're doing long journeys, in which case it's probably not the ideal size in the first place.

You can still get a Golf or Octavia with a diesel engine even today, and a lot of SEATs with diesels up until not so long ago (so 3 year old used Leons etc.)

I've had dozens of VAG cars in both diesel and petrol across all sizes. Anything smaller than a Golf I'd prefer a petrol.

[ThingsBehindTheSun]

Starsky80 said:

However, everything that I see available locally in my budget, which has crept from 4k to 5k to 6k due to a lack of choice is almost all petrol or if diesel, extremely high mileage. Looking at stuff like Renault Captur/mk4 Scenic/mk4 Megane, Peugeot 308, SEAT Leon/Skoda Octavia etc.

The Renaults you are looking at with the 1.5 DCI engine, the MK4 Scenic, MK4 Megane,Captur are too new to fall into the under £5K price band. For that money you are looking at the MK3 Scenic/Megane, but as my family run loads of them, there are loads of them out there.

I think in trying to get a MK4 in this budget the only ones avaiable are the high mileage ones.

Personally I have a Mk3 Megane 1.4 TCE after owning a MK2 Megane DCI for 5 years and I would never go diesel again. When I drive my parents 1.5 DCi cars I cannot believe how noisy and rough they feel.

I get 45MPG if I set the cruise to 70MPH on the motorway

Edited by ThingsBehindTheSun on Thursday 5th February 16:14

[Starsky80]

SuperPav said:

Any new (as in 5 year old) mini class cars diesel is all but done for. The aftertreatment required is so expensive that it doesn't make any sense, and frankly the economy benefits between a diesel and a small turbo petrol in that class of car is negligible, unless you're doing long journeys, in which case it's probably not the ideal size in the first place.

You can still get a Golf or Octavia with a diesel engine even today, and a lot of SEATs with diesels up until not so long ago (so 3 year old used Leons etc.)

I've had dozens of VAG cars in both diesel and petrol across all sizes. Anything smaller than a Golf I'd prefer a petrol.

Kind of agree with you on that last point if it wasn't for that POS Puretech engine, whereas Peugeot/Citroen diesel engines have always been quite good? Also looked at SEAT Ibiza/Arona/mk2 Nissan Juke and on those cars I would be perfectly happy with the small turbocharged petrol engines. That little 900cc petrol turbo is a hoot in my wife's Clio but would it be as good in a Megane? I'm not so sure, the 1.5 dCi seems like the better bedfellow in that application and pretty reliable for a diesel?

[plfrench]

Diesels are rapidly going extinct. For the last 3 years, the net reduction in the UK car pool has been over 1500 per day, every day. A drop of over 20% in number since the peak in 2018.

At the rate things are going, there will be more EVs than Diesel cars by about 2030! An incredible turnaround given they were so popular.

[cerb4.5lee]

kambites said:

The market for them was largely replaced by low pressure turbo petrols.

This. When we were looking for a car for our 17 year old daughter recently for example, diesel was never on the cards for us(and I like diesel don't get me wrong). So a small engined petrol turbo was the priority as you say.

[normalbloke]

They’ve been cancelled.

[Jeenyus161]

Skoda Fabia is all the car you'd need for that - plenty of diesels still kicking around for within your budget:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?channel=ca...

[cerb4.5lee]

plfrench said:

Diesels are rapidly going extinct. For the last 3 years, the net reduction in the UK car pool has been over 1500 per day, every day. A drop of over 20% in number since the peak in 2018.

At the rate things are going, there will be more EVs than Diesel cars by about 2030! An incredible turnaround given they were so popular.

There's a lot of sheep following with new cars though for me, and years back a lot of us followed diesel and look how that went, and history is now repeating itself as well with electric too. However petrol generally still wins the day overall though I think currently, but obviously that could change going forward though.

[Starsky80]

ThingsBehindTheSun said:

The Renaults you are looking at with the 1.5 DCI engine, the MK4 Scenic, MK4 Megane,Captur are too new to fall into the under £5K price band. For that money you are looking at the MK3 Scenic/Megane, but as my family run loads of them, there are loads of them out there.

I think in trying to get a MK4 in this budget the only ones avaiable are the high mileage ones.

Personally I have a Mk3 Megane 1.4 TCE after owning a MK2 Megane DCI for 5 years and I would never go diesel again. When I drive my parents 1.5 DCi cars I cannot believe how noisy and rough they feel.

I get 45MPG if I set the cruise to 70MPH on the motorway

Edited by ThingsBehindTheSun on Thursday 5th February 16:14

Actually, this one looks pretty decent for 5k, I just haven't had an opportunity to go and see it, as it's a bit of a trek away from me. Not even sure if I want a Captur to be honest (I'll take a look at a petrol one more local to me for seating/boot space/practicality etc before I commit to going to see this one). The Clio is quite fun to thrash/quite chuckable etc but I don't see the Captur as being as eager. The C3 Picasso that I'm currently using certainly has a plusher ride than my wife's Clio but when you push it, it rolls/ploughs into understeer pretty readily. I imagine that the Captur would be similar, so the extra torque and more relaxed gait of the diesel would suit the car better?

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202512158...

[plfrench]

cerb4.5lee said:

plfrench said:

Diesels are rapidly going extinct. For the last 3 years, the net reduction in the UK car pool has been over 1500 per day, every day. A drop of over 20% in number since the peak in 2018.

At the rate things are going, there will be more EVs than Diesel cars by about 2030! An incredible turnaround given they were so popular.

There's a lot of sheep following with new cars though for me, and years back a lot of us followed diesel and look how that went, and history is now repeating itself as well with electric too. However petrol generally still wins the day overall though I think currently, but obviously that could change going forward though.

It already is changing. Even the number of pure petrol cars in the UK car pool has already started to decline. Obviously a long way behind the decline of Diesel which had a 7 year head start, but we’re already past the peak number. EV and hybrid are quite quickly replacing the fleet.

[Glosphil]

On longer journeys my 2018 Leon FR 1.4TSi (150) will return 53mpg. My wife's 2019 Fabia SEL 1.0TSi {110) gives 54mpg. Guess which car we use for longer journeys.

[cerb4.5lee]

plfrench said:

cerb4.5lee said:

plfrench said:

Diesels are rapidly going extinct. For the last 3 years, the net reduction in the UK car pool has been over 1500 per day, every day. A drop of over 20% in number since the peak in 2018.

At the rate things are going, there will be more EVs than Diesel cars by about 2030! An incredible turnaround given they were so popular.

There's a lot of sheep following with new cars though for me, and years back a lot of us followed diesel and look how that went, and history is now repeating itself as well with electric too. However petrol generally still wins the day overall though I think currently, but obviously that could change going forward though.

It already is changing. Even the number of pure petrol cars in the UK car pool has already started to decline. Obviously a long way behind the decline of Diesel which had a 7 year head start, but we re already past the peak number. EV and hybrid are quite quickly replacing the fleet.

Most hybrids are still petrol though, and I think petrol will live on for a long while yet to be honest. It will take ages for EVs to completely take over petrol hybrids in my view, but that is just my take on things anyway.

[CMTMB]

When small petrol turbos are so good these days (as in the last 10 or so years), it's hard to see the benefit of the diesel equivalent. The petrol will usually offer more performance, a much more refined drive, not far off the economy and the fuel is cheaper to buy.

[cerb4.5lee]

CMTMB said:

When small petrol turbos are so good these days (as in the last 10 or so years), it's hard to see the benefit of the diesel equivalent. The petrol will usually offer more performance, a much more refined drive, not far off the economy and the fuel is cheaper to buy.

That was what I learnt from getting loan cars from Merc and BMW for example as well. I'd always associated higher mpg with diesels prior to that to be honest, but the small turbo petrols were pretty much matching the diesels when it came to mpg in my experience, so the appeal of diesel weakened for sure.

I still wouldn't want a small petrol turbo in a heavy SUV though for example, and I'd still take a 6 cylinder diesel for that job personally.

[Starsky80]

cerb4.5lee said:

plfrench said:

Diesels are rapidly going extinct. For the last 3 years, the net reduction in the UK car pool has been over 1500 per day, every day. A drop of over 20% in number since the peak in 2018.

At the rate things are going, there will be more EVs than Diesel cars by about 2030! An incredible turnaround given they were so popular.

There's a lot of sheep following with new cars though for me, and years back a lot of us followed diesel and look how that went, and history is now repeating itself as well with electric too. However petrol generally still wins the day overall though I think currently, but obviously that could change going forward though.

Some of those turbo petrols are pretty flawed though Lee (Puretech/Ecoboost) and you're probably looking at a 3 cylinder engine in a small car, which I know you're not a huge fan of. The 900cc turbo in the Clio has a certain thrummy character/charm about it but smooth it isn't. I owned a 3 cylinder Polo TDI years ago and although it was fairly punchy, it was possibly the roughest/least refined engine that I have ever driven. The 1.5 dCi in the Clios/Meganes is a 4 cylinder at least and although you do have to change the cambelt periodically, at least it isn't a "wet" belt. I believe that the 1.0 TSI engine in the VAG cars has a normal "dry" cambelt, so I would be less concerned with one of them over a Ford/Peugeot/Citroen/Vauxhall but I hear that some of the larger VAG petrol engines have chains and can suffer with some timing chain issues. The 2.0 VAG TDI does at least have a dry timing belt and if changed on time, they seem to run up to high mileages very reliably.

[CraigyMc]

Starsky80 said:

Currently looking for a new (to me) smallish family car to commute 300 miles per week in. My instinct is still to lean towards diesel, as a bit more relaxed/torquey on main roads/motorways compared to a small capacity petrol engine, probably 33-50% more economical like-for-like, which offsets the more expensive fuel, very cheap road fund license pre-2017 and just a better match generally to a slightly bigger car I would have thought?

Currently dividing my driving between my wife's 2015 Clio (0.9 TCe) and my parent's purple Citroen C3 Picasso with the 1.2 Puretech engine, which I am borrowing temporarily. The Citroen is a bit smoother but completely gutless and the Renault is shorter geared and a bit more nippy and fun but a little unrefined on a longer DC/motorway run. However, everything that I see available locally in my budget, which has crept from 4k to 5k to 6k due to a lack of choice is almost all petrol or if diesel, extremely high mileage. Looking at stuff like Renault Captur/mk4 Scenic/mk4 Megane, Peugeot 308, SEAT Leon/Skoda Octavia etc.

A lot of main dealers have PCP deals available on nearly new vehicles now, so I have also considered that as an option ie put down around 3k and 200 per month on a 15k or so car (probably a worse rate than new but that would require you to put down 8k on a 30k car), which I don't want to do. Don't laugh but I quite like the look of the newer Peugeot 208s/2008s and Vauxhall Corsas/Astra/Mokkas but they're all either electric, which I don't want as I don't have off-street parking or charging facilities at my work or with that crappy 1.2 Puretech engine, which surely you don't want? Diesels used to be a mainstay years ago on a Peugeot dealer forecourt but I asked the salesman and he said that we just don't buy/sell them any more, as demand is less than it was. I'm a little puzzled by this, as I would have thought that a diesel 208/2008 would be a pretty fine family car and the electric versions are hardly class-leading for range or reliability?

If I didn't go down the nearly new PCP route, I think that a 5-6k SEAT Leon FR TDI manual would be a pretty amazing family car (obviously all things being equal I would have the Cupra but they're a lot more expensive to run and insure than the diesels) but FR TDIs seem to be surprisingly rare (I'm talking about the mk3 Leon FR TDI, so 2013-2018ish).

I'm assuming that if I was looking at a more "premium" car (Audi/BMW/Mercedes/Land Rover) etc then there would still be a good selection of used/nearly new diesel cars and with some of the petrol alternatives such as the aforementioned Stellantis Puretech and Ford Ecoboost engines hardly being a paragon of reliability, why would the diesel versions still not be a compelling option?

https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/search?body-type=HTC&fuel-type=DSL&mileage=5000&mileage=175000&price=3000&price=6000&sort-order=Mileage&year=2015&year=2026

[plfrench]

cerb4.5lee said:

Most hybrids are still petrol though, and I think petrol will live on for a long while yet to be honest. It will take ages for EVs to completely take over petrol hybrids in my view, but that is just my take on things anyway.

Sure, I suspect we’re 5 years away from hybrids volumes peaking, but I think you’ll be surprised how quickly the fleet switches over.

Just 7 years ago, over 40% of the car pool was Diesel. It’s now less than 30% and the trajectory of decline is still steepening. The same will start to happen with hybrids in 3 or 4 years only from a much smaller start point.

[paul_c123]

I believe there is a "golden era" of cars which are fading away now. I'd say roughly, 2010-2017 before dashboards went digital, they started putting ventilation controls on the screen instead of buttons, pre-anything wetbelt, pre-Adblue for diesels, not hybrid, etc etc. Cars like the VW Golf Mk7, Ford Fiesta (non-Ecoboosts), Merc C-class W204, BMW 3 series E9x and F3x, VW Passat etc etc

These cars are now getting older and higher mileage. And most of them didn't have Apple Carplay (but you can add it for not much), so people are put off somewhat.

Low mileage/good condition gems still exist, its just a case of being patient, going for the right spec and paying the asking price (because dealers certainly know they are desirable).