Knocking down structural walls
Discussion
Mrs Oxgreen and I are beginning to muse about moving to a property that suits our future needs better.
One improvement for me would be to have a double garage that could be used as a workshop for a small classic car - think MGB or similar. Trouble is, many double garages either have a brick pillar dividing the doorway into two halves, or indeed a complete wall down the middle.
So my question is: to what extent can such walls be removed?
In my ignorance and naivety, I’ve always assumed that more or less any wall can be removed if you throw a big enough RSJ or two across the top of the resulting hole. Is there any truth in that, or am I talking b
ks?
For example, the following house on RM would tick many boxes (except it’s in the wrong location, so we wouldn’t really be interested in this one). But take a look at that garage, as depicted in the floor plan. It’s such a shame it’s got the wall running through it. Could it be removed, making a nice big space with a double-width opening at the front?
The fly in the ointment is if you look at picture 1, that wall down the middle of the garage is also the side wall of the house, so fairly important! Could this be done with a big enough RSJ where the garage dividing wall is, linking onto another RSJ along the front?
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/167410628#/...
One improvement for me would be to have a double garage that could be used as a workshop for a small classic car - think MGB or similar. Trouble is, many double garages either have a brick pillar dividing the doorway into two halves, or indeed a complete wall down the middle.
So my question is: to what extent can such walls be removed?
In my ignorance and naivety, I’ve always assumed that more or less any wall can be removed if you throw a big enough RSJ or two across the top of the resulting hole. Is there any truth in that, or am I talking b
ks?For example, the following house on RM would tick many boxes (except it’s in the wrong location, so we wouldn’t really be interested in this one). But take a look at that garage, as depicted in the floor plan. It’s such a shame it’s got the wall running through it. Could it be removed, making a nice big space with a double-width opening at the front?
The fly in the ointment is if you look at picture 1, that wall down the middle of the garage is also the side wall of the house, so fairly important! Could this be done with a big enough RSJ where the garage dividing wall is, linking onto another RSJ along the front?
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/167410628#/...
Even with a gigantic RSJ, you will probably need pillars with new foundations, as you’re no longer spreading that gable weight evenly over a long strip foundation, instead creating point loads, it’s also a big lump of steel to transfer the load that way.
I’m not a structural engineer, but often sit in on their meetings.
I’m not a structural engineer, but often sit in on their meetings.
Car bon said:
It would be easier to demolish the one on the right and rebuild it wider, if that's possible ?
Yes, I think you’re right about it being an extension. And Mrs Oxgreen and I are wondering about widening it, but it might result in no access to the back garden.Now I’ve shown it to Mrs Oxgreen, it turns out the location isn’t a right-off, so we might go and have a look at it.
It’s got loads and loads of space at the front which could be partially tarmacked, so room to work on cars albeit in the open.
We've 3 RSJs about 6m long supporting two upstairs double bedrooms, hall and bathroom. They anchors into brick walls each end on large padstones then the theory is it spreads the weight into the brickwork, so you don't need pillars in-between or at ends if done right. 20 years and house is still standing!
I think it was built like that from new - everything matches perfectly. It's a common format around us, in the NW.
I did wonder about widening the right garage - but doesn't look like there's much space at the side.
Is access to the house from the side road? Being tucked away might suit some people - my wife rejected a similar house in our village as she said she'd feel isolated.
I did wonder about widening the right garage - but doesn't look like there's much space at the side.
Is access to the house from the side road? Being tucked away might suit some people - my wife rejected a similar house in our village as she said she'd feel isolated.
Sheepshanks said:
I did wonder about widening the right garage - but doesn't look like there's much space at the side.
Is access to the house from the side road?
There isn’t much room to the side, to be honest. Access is via a longish driveway from a road that isn’t especially busy.Is access to the house from the side road?
Pretty sure it’s number 19A right in the middle below…
It all comes down to how big a gap you want to create in the wall between the two garages. Obviously if you want one big rectangular space with no pillars then it’s a very tricky job. However if you could get away with say a 2.4M wide opening in the wall between the two halves of the garage then that would be relatively easy to do. A structural engineer would be able to advise on the trade off between size and difficulty. The wall coming forwards in front of the main house wall between the two halves of the garage is quite handy for providing some support for the steels required to support the gable end. Be interesting to see which way the floor joists run at first floor level as that could make quite a difference.
It’s an interesting drive way. Obviously the original developers could not get the required sight lines for a drive way onto White Rose Lane so followed a tortuous route to the side road. It’s a bit difficult to see but is it a shared access from Wendela Close? The neighbors there seem to do a good line in blocking the entrance with parked cars!
It’s an interesting drive way. Obviously the original developers could not get the required sight lines for a drive way onto White Rose Lane so followed a tortuous route to the side road. It’s a bit difficult to see but is it a shared access from Wendela Close? The neighbors there seem to do a good line in blocking the entrance with parked cars!
I’m really not sure where the driveway comes out. At first glance I assumed it came out directly onto White Rose Lane, but now I’ve taken a ride in Google’s camera car it’s clear that’s not the case. Zooming in on the satellite view the driveway does seem to parallel White Rose for a considerable distance, and maybe emerges as a shared driveway with the corner property of Wendela Close. It’s difficult to see because Google hasn’t driven down the private road. Might go and have a look tomorrow.
I’m with the idea of just removing part of the wall, but it’s worth investigating building an extension above the single story garage and maybe widen the footprint to the right while you’re at it. It may end up that you won’t need to remove any of the dividing wall but giving you an extra large right hand side garage.
Budget blown!
Budget blown!
Something similar to this was covered here https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
bigmowley said:
Obviously the original developers could not get the required sight lines for a drive way onto White Rose Lane so followed a tortuous route to the side road. It s a bit difficult to see but is it a shared access from Wendela Close? The neighbors there seem to do a good line in blocking the entrance with parked cars!
Yes, you could do alsorts with the garage: remove the whole wall with fancy underpinning, extend sideways and probably remove the hedge to next door, extend backwards for a tandem garage, etc. but the access is the major issue here. A long winding access to a private road through a neighbour who wants more space than he has so has extended greatly and parks blocking the joint access; sounds like a social and legal nightmare. It's strange that the access is not next to the other but I suppose that there were highway issues (too close to the junction) or that the landowner wouldn't sell, or both.Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
Mrs Oxgreen and I are beginning to muse about moving to a property that suits our future needs better.
One improvement for me would be to have a double garage that could be used as a workshop for a small classic car - think MGB or similar. Trouble is, many double garages either have a brick pillar dividing the doorway into two halves, or indeed a complete wall down the middle.
So my question is: to what extent can such walls be removed?
In my ignorance and naivety, I ve always assumed that more or less any wall can be removed if you throw a big enough RSJ or two across the top of the resulting hole. Is there any truth in that, or am I talking bks?
For example, the following house on RM would tick many boxes (except it s in the wrong location, so we wouldn t really be interested in this one). But take a look at that garage, as depicted in the floor plan. It s such a shame it s got the wall running through it. Could it be removed, making a nice big space with a double-width opening at the front?
The fly in the ointment is if you look at picture 1, that wall down the middle of the garage is also the side wall of the house, so fairly important! Could this be done with a big enough RSJ where the garage dividing wall is, linking onto another RSJ along the front?
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/167410628#/...
I think the issue to do it the way you're thinking is that even if you put a large enough steel across that outside wall you'd be shifting load to the corner foundations which may not be suitable.One improvement for me would be to have a double garage that could be used as a workshop for a small classic car - think MGB or similar. Trouble is, many double garages either have a brick pillar dividing the doorway into two halves, or indeed a complete wall down the middle.
So my question is: to what extent can such walls be removed?
In my ignorance and naivety, I ve always assumed that more or less any wall can be removed if you throw a big enough RSJ or two across the top of the resulting hole. Is there any truth in that, or am I talking b
ks?For example, the following house on RM would tick many boxes (except it s in the wrong location, so we wouldn t really be interested in this one). But take a look at that garage, as depicted in the floor plan. It s such a shame it s got the wall running through it. Could it be removed, making a nice big space with a double-width opening at the front?
The fly in the ointment is if you look at picture 1, that wall down the middle of the garage is also the side wall of the house, so fairly important! Could this be done with a big enough RSJ where the garage dividing wall is, linking onto another RSJ along the front?
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/167410628#/...
My first thought would be to use PD to simply add the workshop to the rear of the double garage, open up the back wall of the end garage to it completely and then put the largest doorway sensible by cost into the dividing house wall at the back to create the walkthrough and work space for both bays.
Thanks for all the input - it’s been really helpful.
And the link to that other thread has really made me realise that my vision of completely opening the garage into a true double space would be technically complex and hence very expensive. Getting the serious RSJs and other machinery in there could be logistically difficult (i.e. expensive) due to the access driveway (see below).
I think my idea of having a nice big car workshop may be too much of a pipedream, given that neither of us want to move away from the area and no properties have a good double garage.
We have, however, booked a couple of valuations on our place and a viewing for White Rose Lane. I’ve just been to take a look at how the driveway emerges, and our suspicions were incorrect: it’s not really a shared driveway, and the silver hatchback you see on Google Streetview isn’t blocking access at all. The driveway emerges alongside where the hatchback is parked - it’s a bit narrow but not a problem, and the dividing line is clearly demarcated by a line of paving blocks. Here’s a picture I took from Wendela Close…
As you can see, it’s absolutely fine for cars. But it’s the sort of access that has given me a few more grey hairs when reversing an HGV. I reckon you might get an 18 tonner down there, if you straight-line it by borrowing number 21’s driveway. The bend to the right might be a bit “interesting” though.
And the link to that other thread has really made me realise that my vision of completely opening the garage into a true double space would be technically complex and hence very expensive. Getting the serious RSJs and other machinery in there could be logistically difficult (i.e. expensive) due to the access driveway (see below).
I think my idea of having a nice big car workshop may be too much of a pipedream, given that neither of us want to move away from the area and no properties have a good double garage.
We have, however, booked a couple of valuations on our place and a viewing for White Rose Lane. I’ve just been to take a look at how the driveway emerges, and our suspicions were incorrect: it’s not really a shared driveway, and the silver hatchback you see on Google Streetview isn’t blocking access at all. The driveway emerges alongside where the hatchback is parked - it’s a bit narrow but not a problem, and the dividing line is clearly demarcated by a line of paving blocks. Here’s a picture I took from Wendela Close…
As you can see, it’s absolutely fine for cars. But it’s the sort of access that has given me a few more grey hairs when reversing an HGV. I reckon you might get an 18 tonner down there, if you straight-line it by borrowing number 21’s driveway. The bend to the right might be a bit “interesting” though.
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
Thanks for all the input - it s been really helpful.
And the link to that other thread has really made me realise that my vision of completely opening the garage into a true double space would be technically complex and hence very expensive. Getting the serious RSJs and other machinery in there could be logistically difficult (i.e. expensive) due to the access driveway (see below).
I think my idea of having a nice big car workshop may be too much of a pipedream, given that neither of us want to move away from the area and no properties have a good double garage.
We have, however, booked a couple of valuations on our place and a viewing for White Rose Lane. I ve just been to take a look at how the driveway emerges, and our suspicions were incorrect: it s not really a shared driveway, and the silver hatchback you see on Google Streetview isn t blocking access at all. The driveway emerges alongside where the hatchback is parked - it s a bit narrow but not a problem, and the dividing line is clearly demarcated by a line of paving blocks. Here s a picture I took from Wendela Close
As you can see, it s absolutely fine for cars. But it s the sort of access that has given me a few more grey hairs when reversing an HGV. I reckon you might get an 18 tonner down there, if you straight-line it by borrowing number 21 s driveway. The bend to the right might be a bit interesting though.
So it's a lot better than we thought although the dropped kerb looks quite tight. For HGVs, really you need a temporary hammerhead turning point in the summer of construction works. (You might even want to make that permanent so that you drive in to the left and reverse into your garage.And the link to that other thread has really made me realise that my vision of completely opening the garage into a true double space would be technically complex and hence very expensive. Getting the serious RSJs and other machinery in there could be logistically difficult (i.e. expensive) due to the access driveway (see below).
I think my idea of having a nice big car workshop may be too much of a pipedream, given that neither of us want to move away from the area and no properties have a good double garage.
We have, however, booked a couple of valuations on our place and a viewing for White Rose Lane. I ve just been to take a look at how the driveway emerges, and our suspicions were incorrect: it s not really a shared driveway, and the silver hatchback you see on Google Streetview isn t blocking access at all. The driveway emerges alongside where the hatchback is parked - it s a bit narrow but not a problem, and the dividing line is clearly demarcated by a line of paving blocks. Here s a picture I took from Wendela Close
As you can see, it s absolutely fine for cars. But it s the sort of access that has given me a few more grey hairs when reversing an HGV. I reckon you might get an 18 tonner down there, if you straight-line it by borrowing number 21 s driveway. The bend to the right might be a bit interesting though.
On the garage aspect, I'd put a 3m/3.5m opening into the other garage so that you can park away from the internal house wall and still open the car doors OK - you'll need a well insulated door/door frame from the house to the garage - and then widen the other garage by 1.5 to 1.9m so that you have 1+1.75 garages. If you change the flat roof to a pitched one that also allows more storage.
My main garage has a single triple door. The steel was 'challenging' to get to the location and even more challenging to mount, but I was on holiday so I don't care.
You absolutely can get massive garage doors into supporting walls, but get someone who knows what they're doing to do the sums and someone else who knows what they're doing to do the work.
You absolutely can get massive garage doors into supporting walls, but get someone who knows what they're doing to do the sums and someone else who knows what they're doing to do the work.
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
Mrs Oxgreen and I are beginning to muse about moving to a property that suits our future needs better.
One improvement for me would be to have a double garage that could be used as a workshop for a small classic car - think MGB or similar. Trouble is, many double garages either have a brick pillar dividing the doorway into two halves, or indeed a complete wall down the middle.
So my question is: to what extent can such walls be removed?
In my ignorance and naivety, I ve always assumed that more or less any wall can be removed if you throw a big enough RSJ or two across the top of the resulting hole. Is there any truth in that, or am I talking bks?
For example, the following house on RM would tick many boxes (except it s in the wrong location, so we wouldn t really be interested in this one). But take a look at that garage, as depicted in the floor plan. It s such a shame it s got the wall running through it. Could it be removed, making a nice big space with a double-width opening at the front?
The fly in the ointment is if you look at picture 1, that wall down the middle of the garage is also the side wall of the house, so fairly important! Could this be done with a big enough RSJ where the garage dividing wall is, linking onto another RSJ along the front?
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/167410628#/...
So it looks like the extra garage was added at some point after the initial one. The original garage wall is supporting the external wall above and potentially half of the floor load from the room above it as well. Fairly simple mechanic maths for someone with your skills!!One improvement for me would be to have a double garage that could be used as a workshop for a small classic car - think MGB or similar. Trouble is, many double garages either have a brick pillar dividing the doorway into two halves, or indeed a complete wall down the middle.
So my question is: to what extent can such walls be removed?
In my ignorance and naivety, I ve always assumed that more or less any wall can be removed if you throw a big enough RSJ or two across the top of the resulting hole. Is there any truth in that, or am I talking b
ks?For example, the following house on RM would tick many boxes (except it s in the wrong location, so we wouldn t really be interested in this one). But take a look at that garage, as depicted in the floor plan. It s such a shame it s got the wall running through it. Could it be removed, making a nice big space with a double-width opening at the front?
The fly in the ointment is if you look at picture 1, that wall down the middle of the garage is also the side wall of the house, so fairly important! Could this be done with a big enough RSJ where the garage dividing wall is, linking onto another RSJ along the front?
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/167410628#/...
It would be possible, the issues are... A) the supported load above, be it the wall, floor, ceiling and roof - but the roof runs perpendicular to the wall in the property shown so possibly not supported by the wall you wish to remove. Then there's supporting half the point load (now) at either end of the beam introduced as the load is no longer uniformly distributed by the wall. If you put a single door in then this is also achievable but will mean supporting a quarter of the load at either end of the tip of the T formation. The pier or column below the supported ends needs to be able to spread the load over the area which is now much smaller - so might need engineering bricks or similar and the foundations would need to support them as well and then there are some other potential thoughts required about the size and shape of the foundation block in terms of fractures and where the load dissipates. Plus with the steels you do need to consider the lateral stability of the steel, I used to mitigate most of that by putting a UC (Universal Column) shape steel in or there are asymmetrical beams around which work, this is as opposed to an UB (Universal Beam) shape steel. The UB has a rectangular shape - so an 'I' beam which is taller in height over the width vs a UC which is a square shape - so same height and width.
The loads, in that particular house don't look too high to be honest, but that's a complete guess from photos and a plan which will be of slightly dubious quality usually - as in the dimensions and how the actual build fits together. There may well be a steel already in place or a pre-stressed concrete lintel below the outside front wall of the upstairs bedroom, otherwise there's nothing there to uniformly support it and half the ceiling and half the roof (got to love concrete tiles as they are heavy!!) - the other half of those loads is supported by the rear external wall.
Remove the wall between 'garage 1' and the 'study/cloaks', thus making a larger 'garage 1' and relocate/turn the cloaks through 90deg (so you still have access from the hallway)... unless you are doing other internal changes as you might get the cloaks in elsewhere.
'Garage 2' then becomes a replacement study, or stays as a third garage, or tools and machine shop
Front garage door is below the flat roof section, so no obvious issues with making it larger and the 'removed wall' is below bedroom 1 (doesn't line up with other walls, so shouldn't be an issue...).
Might not give you a true 'double garage' but probably about 3.7m wide (if you believe the agents dimensions). Putting the cloaks elsewhere would add to the clear space, probably another 1100mm.
Quick/rough sketch below to give you the idea...
NOTE - The only concern (without visiting the property) is that the front first floor wall is set back from the ground floor wall, so there might be some steel supporting this (running left/right)... so you would need to check if there is anything spanning from the study/cloaks wall i.e. meaning that the dotted wall under the rear left wheel arch is supporting anything above...
'Garage 2' then becomes a replacement study, or stays as a third garage, or tools and machine shop
Front garage door is below the flat roof section, so no obvious issues with making it larger and the 'removed wall' is below bedroom 1 (doesn't line up with other walls, so shouldn't be an issue...).
Might not give you a true 'double garage' but probably about 3.7m wide (if you believe the agents dimensions). Putting the cloaks elsewhere would add to the clear space, probably another 1100mm.
Quick/rough sketch below to give you the idea...
NOTE - The only concern (without visiting the property) is that the front first floor wall is set back from the ground floor wall, so there might be some steel supporting this (running left/right)... so you would need to check if there is anything spanning from the study/cloaks wall i.e. meaning that the dotted wall under the rear left wheel arch is supporting anything above...
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