S59 and due care and attention...
Discussion
What are the learned PH members thoughts on the scenario below?
My friend, (yes really
) was recently driving on the A127.
From the right hand lane he indicated to move over to the left hand lane. The vehicle behind and to the left flashed it's headlights and my friend moved to the left lane. At this point the vehicle that had flashed began flashing it's lights repeatedly and beeping it's horn, as well as weaving in the lane behind my friends car.
This continued for several seconds until my friend signalled left again for the next exit, he then gave the car behind the middle finger before pulling off at the exit. At this point the vehicle behind turned on blue lights and sirens, before following my friend and bringing him to halt.
The driver stated he was police and that my friends driving was erratic, and couldn't believe he was so disrespectful as to give a policeman the middle finger!
The police officer was not in uniform and provided no ID. (Although my friend didn't ask for proof of ID) The car was unmarked and appeared to have no video recording equipment. The officer reported my friend for careless driving and issued him with a S59 notice.
A week later a letter was sent to my friend from Essex police giving him the option to take a course, or pay a penalty and receive 3 points, or request a court hearing.
Gut feeling is that because he gave the middle finger there is no point contesting it, just do the course and move on...BUT the S59 feels like the officer trying to prove a point and seems disproportionate?
I think he should make a complaint, especially as the officer told him "You're lucky I'm not a guy with a machete..."
Friend is late 20s, has no previous issues or convictions. He was taking his wife to a hospital appointment and is technically disabled himself.
Anyway... over to you
Edit - titles wrong and can't change it...
My friend, (yes really
) was recently driving on the A127. From the right hand lane he indicated to move over to the left hand lane. The vehicle behind and to the left flashed it's headlights and my friend moved to the left lane. At this point the vehicle that had flashed began flashing it's lights repeatedly and beeping it's horn, as well as weaving in the lane behind my friends car.
This continued for several seconds until my friend signalled left again for the next exit, he then gave the car behind the middle finger before pulling off at the exit. At this point the vehicle behind turned on blue lights and sirens, before following my friend and bringing him to halt.
The driver stated he was police and that my friends driving was erratic, and couldn't believe he was so disrespectful as to give a policeman the middle finger!
The police officer was not in uniform and provided no ID. (Although my friend didn't ask for proof of ID) The car was unmarked and appeared to have no video recording equipment. The officer reported my friend for careless driving and issued him with a S59 notice.
A week later a letter was sent to my friend from Essex police giving him the option to take a course, or pay a penalty and receive 3 points, or request a court hearing.
Gut feeling is that because he gave the middle finger there is no point contesting it, just do the course and move on...BUT the S59 feels like the officer trying to prove a point and seems disproportionate?
I think he should make a complaint, especially as the officer told him "You're lucky I'm not a guy with a machete..."
Friend is late 20s, has no previous issues or convictions. He was taking his wife to a hospital appointment and is technically disabled himself.
Anyway... over to you
Edit - titles wrong and can't change it...
BrettMRC said:
I think he should make a complaint, especially as the officer told him "You're lucky I'm not a guy with a machete..."
That hardly seems a reason for a complaint. Road rage is very much a thing, and sticking a finger up at another driver would undoubtedly trigger some people. Your friend needs to understand the meaning rather than just the words the officer used.
davek_964 said:
That hardly seems a reason for a complaint. Road rage is very much a thing, and sticking a finger up at another driver would undoubtedly trigger some people.
Your friend needs to understand the meaning rather than just the words the officer used.
Agreed, I think the officer was trying to show a worse case scenario where the guy he had just insulted was not an officer, but a steroid fuelled loony with a crowbar, etcYour friend needs to understand the meaning rather than just the words the officer used.
BrettMRC said:
What are the learned PH members thoughts on the scenario below?
My friend, (yes really ) was recently driving on the A127.
From the right hand lane he indicated to move over to the left hand lane. The vehicle behind and to the left flashed it's headlights and my friend moved to the left lane. At this point the vehicle that had flashed began flashing it's lights repeatedly and beeping it's horn, as well as weaving in the lane behind my friends car.
This continued for several seconds until my friend signalled left again for the next exit, he then gave the car behind the middle finger before pulling off at the exit. At this point the vehicle behind turned on blue lights and sirens, before following my friend and bringing him to halt.
The driver stated he was police and that my friends driving was erratic, and couldn't believe he was so disrespectful as to give a policeman the middle finger!
The police officer was not in uniform and provided no ID. (Although my friend didn't ask for proof of ID) The car was unmarked and appeared to have no video recording equipment. The officer reported my friend for careless driving and issued him with a S59 notice.
A week later a letter was sent to my friend from Essex police giving him the option to take a course, or pay a penalty and receive 3 points, or request a court hearing.
Gut feeling is that because he gave the middle finger there is no point contesting it, just do the course and move on...BUT the S59 feels like the officer trying to prove a point and seems disproportionate?
I think he should make a complaint, especially as the officer told him "You're lucky I'm not a guy with a machete..."
Friend is late 20s, has no previous issues or convictions. He was taking his wife to a hospital appointment and is technically disabled himself.
Anyway... over to you
Edit - titles wrong and can't change it...
Sounds like your friend has taken the headlight flash as 'come across' rather than as it is should be taken 'Im here' and cut them up? My friend, (yes really
) was recently driving on the A127. From the right hand lane he indicated to move over to the left hand lane. The vehicle behind and to the left flashed it's headlights and my friend moved to the left lane. At this point the vehicle that had flashed began flashing it's lights repeatedly and beeping it's horn, as well as weaving in the lane behind my friends car.
This continued for several seconds until my friend signalled left again for the next exit, he then gave the car behind the middle finger before pulling off at the exit. At this point the vehicle behind turned on blue lights and sirens, before following my friend and bringing him to halt.
The driver stated he was police and that my friends driving was erratic, and couldn't believe he was so disrespectful as to give a policeman the middle finger!
The police officer was not in uniform and provided no ID. (Although my friend didn't ask for proof of ID) The car was unmarked and appeared to have no video recording equipment. The officer reported my friend for careless driving and issued him with a S59 notice.
A week later a letter was sent to my friend from Essex police giving him the option to take a course, or pay a penalty and receive 3 points, or request a court hearing.
Gut feeling is that because he gave the middle finger there is no point contesting it, just do the course and move on...BUT the S59 feels like the officer trying to prove a point and seems disproportionate?
I think he should make a complaint, especially as the officer told him "You're lucky I'm not a guy with a machete..."
Friend is late 20s, has no previous issues or convictions. He was taking his wife to a hospital appointment and is technically disabled himself.
Anyway... over to you
Edit - titles wrong and can't change it...
The middle part of the police swerving around doesnt sound right personally.
Is it worthy of a ticket? The fact the ticket office have processed it, could be.
My force will send the statement if you request it. Others may do the same.
What would the complaint be for? Its a fair comment. You dont know who is behind you.
Just because someone is disabled doesnt mean they get a hall pass for things (apart from parking...).
Section 59 wont mean anything unless he makes a habit of driving carelessly.
LosingGrip said:
Sounds like your friend has taken the headlight flash as 'come across' rather than as it is should be taken 'Im here' and cut them up?
I thought headlight flashes were frowned on by the highway code for exactly that reason - they're ambiguous. Or have the rules changed?Simpo Two said:
LosingGrip said:
Sounds like your friend has taken the headlight flash as 'come across' rather than as it is should be taken 'Im here' and cut them up?
I thought headlight flashes were frowned on by the highway code for exactly that reason - they're ambiguous. Or have the rules changed?fooman said:
Simpo Two said:
LosingGrip said:
Sounds like your friend has taken the headlight flash as 'come across' rather than as it is should be taken 'Im here' and cut them up?
I thought headlight flashes were frowned on by the highway code for exactly that reason - they're ambiguous. Or have the rules changed?Highway Code said:
Rule 110
Flashing headlights. Only flash your headlights to let other road users know that you are there. Do not flash your headlights to convey any other message or intimidate other road users.
Rule 111
Never assume that flashing headlights is a signal inviting you to proceed. Use your own judgement and proceed carefully.
CatFlashing headlights. Only flash your headlights to let other road users know that you are there. Do not flash your headlights to convey any other message or intimidate other road users.
Rule 111
Never assume that flashing headlights is a signal inviting you to proceed. Use your own judgement and proceed carefully.
! It sounds more marginal to me.
Yes we all know what the highway code says about headlight flashes, but to pretty much everyone, how they are actually used is commonly a signal to give consent (or to thank someone for giving way)
Try and argue? Sure but you won't convince me.
I have *never* seen a headlight flash used as a "i am here!" signal to discourage a car indicating into a space in front - the horn would be far more suitable for that. I've done the headlight flash to get a car in front out of the way, but again. - I would never dream of using it to try and tell a car not to merge in front of me.
So the first question is why did the cop not just lift off and let the car in?
Second, the continued flashing and swerving - op's friend needs a front / rear dash cam.
Without coming across all conspiracy, there's a reason police behaviour standards have been revealed to be far lower (in some cases) that people would expect. And that reason is that their behaviour is being recorded more.
Cops are on film actively trying to prevent people filming them, so this is well understood by them.
The finger? Pft. I've heard police swear like a docker at the public. They need to be big enough to take a mild rebuke, especially if they have been flashing their lights.
Is the s59 for the finger then? Lame, if so.
Without a camera it's just he said / she said, and the magistrate will 100% side with the police.
The course I went on wasn't awful, but not as good as it should have been.
A complaint would be for the coppers behaviour of letting a car in (ie the common understood meaning of a flash) and then the erratic behaviour after
Yes we all know what the highway code says about headlight flashes, but to pretty much everyone, how they are actually used is commonly a signal to give consent (or to thank someone for giving way)
Try and argue? Sure but you won't convince me.
I have *never* seen a headlight flash used as a "i am here!" signal to discourage a car indicating into a space in front - the horn would be far more suitable for that. I've done the headlight flash to get a car in front out of the way, but again. - I would never dream of using it to try and tell a car not to merge in front of me.
So the first question is why did the cop not just lift off and let the car in?
Second, the continued flashing and swerving - op's friend needs a front / rear dash cam.
Without coming across all conspiracy, there's a reason police behaviour standards have been revealed to be far lower (in some cases) that people would expect. And that reason is that their behaviour is being recorded more.
Cops are on film actively trying to prevent people filming them, so this is well understood by them.
The finger? Pft. I've heard police swear like a docker at the public. They need to be big enough to take a mild rebuke, especially if they have been flashing their lights.
Is the s59 for the finger then? Lame, if so.
Without a camera it's just he said / she said, and the magistrate will 100% side with the police.
The course I went on wasn't awful, but not as good as it should have been.
A complaint would be for the coppers behaviour of letting a car in (ie the common understood meaning of a flash) and then the erratic behaviour after
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