Three pedals, or two?
Discussion
So, it´s fair to say I´ve fallen in love with AM over Christmas/NY after being in and around one (DB9, auto) for a few days. I always thought my tastes lay elsewhere, however something just ´clicked´ and I suspect it has something to do with a V and the number 12...
Anyway, there are many auto boxes around, and that is, well, disappointing, as I have always been a three pedal guy. Perhaps this should change?
In July this year I have access to a lump sum (tax free, yay!) so I am seriously considering a DB9/Vanq/Vantage/Virage...the choices are altogether somewhat confusing, but even more exciting. The lingo surrounding the tech in the transmission is something I am getting used to, but more importantly, I would love to hear from owners that drive the various types of transmissions, please.
I have limited experience of modern auto boxes. In fact it is VERY limited. PDK Pork (Boxster S) is my only experience.
So, will I be shooting myself in the foot by discounting all auto AM´s? I know I will certainly be limiting my purchase options...especially considering the Virage was never a manual, and oh my, it really is gorgeous! Budget will be 50 to 80k.
I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences!
Thanks and happy new year.
Anyway, there are many auto boxes around, and that is, well, disappointing, as I have always been a three pedal guy. Perhaps this should change?
In July this year I have access to a lump sum (tax free, yay!) so I am seriously considering a DB9/Vanq/Vantage/Virage...the choices are altogether somewhat confusing, but even more exciting. The lingo surrounding the tech in the transmission is something I am getting used to, but more importantly, I would love to hear from owners that drive the various types of transmissions, please.
I have limited experience of modern auto boxes. In fact it is VERY limited. PDK Pork (Boxster S) is my only experience.
So, will I be shooting myself in the foot by discounting all auto AM´s? I know I will certainly be limiting my purchase options...especially considering the Virage was never a manual, and oh my, it really is gorgeous! Budget will be 50 to 80k.
I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences!
Thanks and happy new year.
Depends on the model and era.
All two pedal Astons use traditional auto boxes and are apparently all very good. With the 2010s Vanquish and Rapide, quite a lot is made about how good the later 8 speed is over the earlier 6 speed (better fuel economy and higher top speed, not that the last bit is really relevant). However, many say the 6 speed is perfectly good too.
The DB9, DB11, etc. all use a traditional auto box too.
The only difference is with the VH Vantages (mid-2000s to 2018) which all used the single clutch manual based 'boxes. The 2 pedal SportShift models simply was an automated manual, which is not a traditional automatic.
First appearing on the road in the original Vanquish (early 2000s), it beat Ferrari to the market in the 2000s. Graziano built the electrohydraulic automated manual gearboxes for both marques. (The manual versions of the same models used the same Graziano 'box, albeit without the automation.)
Many journalists didn't like the earlier iterations, as they didn't really understand them. But they continuously improved over time resulting in SportShift II from around 2013(?) and SportShift III that featured in the V12 Vantage S.
Personally, I think these are both excellent. I've never driven an early SportShift so can't comment on those, but these wouldn't be in your sight line anyway, by the sounds of it. I had a 2016 Boxster S with PDK and found it really boring. The driver has nothing to do with the process. But with the automated manual, it really is replacing the stick with the paddles. You have to think what you're doing. It's really involving, suits the cars really well and remain engaging. That's what we're all after, surely?
But it's a very personal thing. You need to try one properly and keep an open mind. I would also really try the 7 speed V12 Vantages in manual form as the dogleg first and wider gate can be an acquired taste too.
The big advantage is that manuals command a premium, so you'd save money.
Final comment regards the manuals fitted to the next gen Vantages around the year 2020. This was also the older Graziano 'box with 7 speeds. Some owners didn't get with the application of this 'box in the later Vantages.
All two pedal Astons use traditional auto boxes and are apparently all very good. With the 2010s Vanquish and Rapide, quite a lot is made about how good the later 8 speed is over the earlier 6 speed (better fuel economy and higher top speed, not that the last bit is really relevant). However, many say the 6 speed is perfectly good too.
The DB9, DB11, etc. all use a traditional auto box too.
The only difference is with the VH Vantages (mid-2000s to 2018) which all used the single clutch manual based 'boxes. The 2 pedal SportShift models simply was an automated manual, which is not a traditional automatic.
First appearing on the road in the original Vanquish (early 2000s), it beat Ferrari to the market in the 2000s. Graziano built the electrohydraulic automated manual gearboxes for both marques. (The manual versions of the same models used the same Graziano 'box, albeit without the automation.)
Many journalists didn't like the earlier iterations, as they didn't really understand them. But they continuously improved over time resulting in SportShift II from around 2013(?) and SportShift III that featured in the V12 Vantage S.
Personally, I think these are both excellent. I've never driven an early SportShift so can't comment on those, but these wouldn't be in your sight line anyway, by the sounds of it. I had a 2016 Boxster S with PDK and found it really boring. The driver has nothing to do with the process. But with the automated manual, it really is replacing the stick with the paddles. You have to think what you're doing. It's really involving, suits the cars really well and remain engaging. That's what we're all after, surely?
But it's a very personal thing. You need to try one properly and keep an open mind. I would also really try the 7 speed V12 Vantages in manual form as the dogleg first and wider gate can be an acquired taste too.
The big advantage is that manuals command a premium, so you'd save money.
Final comment regards the manuals fitted to the next gen Vantages around the year 2020. This was also the older Graziano 'box with 7 speeds. Some owners didn't get with the application of this 'box in the later Vantages.
I'm not a gearbox fetishist, 'D' works for me. If I need to get my 450bhp working harder there's (a) kickdown (b) Sport mode (c) both of those (d) flappy paddle. I really bought it 'cos it looks nice and says 'AM' on the front 
Later cars have 8-speed boxes which I hear are better and you have plenty of budget for that. Enjoy your search!
NB the hierarchy (Gaydon era) is Vantage - DB9 - Virage - DB9.2 - DBS - Vanquish. And each have convertible 'Volante' options of course, except the four-seater Rapide, and the Vantage where it's called a Roadster.
Later cars have 8-speed boxes which I hear are better and you have plenty of budget for that. Enjoy your search!
NB the hierarchy (Gaydon era) is Vantage - DB9 - Virage - DB9.2 - DBS - Vanquish. And each have convertible 'Volante' options of course, except the four-seater Rapide, and the Vantage where it's called a Roadster.
Edited by Simpo Two on Friday 2nd January 21:00
I have one of each: a 7 speed manual in a V12 Vantage S and the 8 speed auto Vanquish S Volante Mk2.
They are very different cars, with very different gearboxes. Those different gearboxes suit the different cars. In fact I’d go as far as to say that the Vanquish would be a lesser car with a manual gearbox.
My only “complaint” is that it took a while to gel with the 7 speed manual. I have a few other cars with 4/5/6 gear manuals being present in the majority. They all have a pretty similar gating arrangement with 1st top left… not the case on the AM7sp. In my view it would benefit from a stiffer spring/gate between the forward and reverse gears to reduce the fear of overshooting on block downshifts to 2nd.
Given you have listed both the Vantage and Vanquish, choose based on what you’ll use the car for. If I was selling one it’d be the Vantage that went…
Don’t overlook the earlier DBS. Tbh, and it’s a personal view, I’d have that on your list in preference to the DB9.
They are very different cars, with very different gearboxes. Those different gearboxes suit the different cars. In fact I’d go as far as to say that the Vanquish would be a lesser car with a manual gearbox.
My only “complaint” is that it took a while to gel with the 7 speed manual. I have a few other cars with 4/5/6 gear manuals being present in the majority. They all have a pretty similar gating arrangement with 1st top left… not the case on the AM7sp. In my view it would benefit from a stiffer spring/gate between the forward and reverse gears to reduce the fear of overshooting on block downshifts to 2nd.
Given you have listed both the Vantage and Vanquish, choose based on what you’ll use the car for. If I was selling one it’d be the Vantage that went…
Don’t overlook the earlier DBS. Tbh, and it’s a personal view, I’d have that on your list in preference to the DB9.
I did post a reply last night but deleted it. After some more thought this morning I would suggest you take a look at the following based on your budget criteria. You don’t seem to be fully decided on which gearbox to choose so this should cover all bases.
Auto - Gaydon VH DBS (6 speed auto)
SSIII - Gaydon VH V12 Vantage S (seven speed but not an auto in the traditional sense)
Manual - Gaydon VH original six speed manual V12 Vantage.
Can’t really go wrong with any of them and all three should be available towards to higher end of your budget. Good luck with your search. BRM.
Auto - Gaydon VH DBS (6 speed auto)
SSIII - Gaydon VH V12 Vantage S (seven speed but not an auto in the traditional sense)
Manual - Gaydon VH original six speed manual V12 Vantage.
Can’t really go wrong with any of them and all three should be available towards to higher end of your budget. Good luck with your search. BRM.
I think it depends on what model you actually want.
My first Aston was an SP10 (V8S ) with manual box superseded by a V12S with SS3 - both were dailies and the latter I much preferred in traffic.
I never pressed the D button once.
I then bought my GT8 with a manual which I still have and that suits the car.
I also had one of the new Vantages with no choice but Auto which as a daily and fun car was pretty decent.
In contrast my wife’s RS4 is Auto and I don’t think it has ever been used in paddle mode - it’s that good.
My first Aston was an SP10 (V8S ) with manual box superseded by a V12S with SS3 - both were dailies and the latter I much preferred in traffic.
I never pressed the D button once.
I then bought my GT8 with a manual which I still have and that suits the car.
I also had one of the new Vantages with no choice but Auto which as a daily and fun car was pretty decent.
In contrast my wife’s RS4 is Auto and I don’t think it has ever been used in paddle mode - it’s that good.
alscar said:
I think it depends on what model you actually want.
My first Aston was an SP10 (V8S ) with manual box superseded by a V12S with SS3 - both were dailies and the latter I much preferred in traffic.
I never pressed the D button once.
I then bought my GT8 with a manual which I still have and that suits the car.
I also had one of the new Vantages with no choice but Auto which as a daily and fun car was pretty decent.
In contrast my wife s RS4 is Auto and I don t think it has ever been used in paddle mode - it s that good.
Good points as always alscar. The OPs budget is up to £80,000 so that would be enough to get in to new Vantage too which has a very good automatic gearbox and a decent engine. If you can ignore the early criticisms of that car made here then it could be worth exploring that as an option in addition to the Gaydon VH cars I suggested. BRM. My first Aston was an SP10 (V8S ) with manual box superseded by a V12S with SS3 - both were dailies and the latter I much preferred in traffic.
I never pressed the D button once.
I then bought my GT8 with a manual which I still have and that suits the car.
I also had one of the new Vantages with no choice but Auto which as a daily and fun car was pretty decent.
In contrast my wife s RS4 is Auto and I don t think it has ever been used in paddle mode - it s that good.
Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate the input.
Traffic is something I needn´t concern myself with, as there´s none where I will soon be living (Highlands). Well, apart from the occasional sheep/deer/tractor...
I am simply going to need to get behind the wheel of the various cars, which will be fun, but I suspect it´ll take some time, too.
Traffic is something I needn´t concern myself with, as there´s none where I will soon be living (Highlands). Well, apart from the occasional sheep/deer/tractor...
I am simply going to need to get behind the wheel of the various cars, which will be fun, but I suspect it´ll take some time, too.
alscar said:
My first Aston was an SP10 (V8S ) with manual box superseded by a V12S with SS3 - both were dailies and the latter I much preferred in traffic.
Which reminds me - on the DB9 and probably the rest, the paddles don't rotate with the steering wheel, so unless you have four hands you can only change gear when going in a straight line. Perhaps that how track experts drive but it doesn't work for me. The Jag X150, by contrast, had paddles that were always under your fingers. Horses for courses and all that!Simpo Two said:
Which reminds me - on the DB9 and probably the rest, the paddles don't rotate with the steering wheel, so unless you have four hands you can only change gear when going in a straight line. Perhaps that how track experts drive but it doesn't work for me. The Jag X150, by contrast, had paddles that were always under your fingers. Horses for courses and all that!
I’ve never had an issue with this and not sure changing gears whilst cornering is the best idea anyway ?Certainly in traffic having SS3 was far more preferable than constant clutch and manual gear change.
Not sure how many “normal “road cars today even have rotating wheel paddles ( McLaren maybe ?) and I’m sure I’ve read previously that extra care has to be taken if they are given the wheel itself will be in a different position to potentially operate the +/- shifts causing potential confusion.
I’ve only ever sat in an X150 when I considered buying one and from memory I thought the paddles were steering column mounted ?
alscar said:
I ve only ever sat in an X150 when I considered buying one and from memory I thought the paddles were steering column mounted ?
Well, what I mean is that in the Jag - if my memory serves me correctly - the paddles went round with the steering wheel, on the DB9 they're always at 9 and 3. In that case it doesn't take much of a bend in the road to take your hands away from the paddles. It's also easier to get back to 'D' in the Jag.As a veteran of three TVRs I'm happy to use a gear lever if I need to, but find paddles weird to use. In the Jag they were handy for a swift overtake; in the Aston I don't bother.
Simpo Two said:
Well, what I mean is that in the Jag - if my memory serves me correctly - the paddles went round with the steering wheel, on the DB9 they're always at 9 and 3. In that case it doesn't take much of a bend in the road to take your hands away from the paddles. It's also easier to get back to 'D' in the Jag.
As a veteran of three TVRs I'm happy to use a gear lever if I need to, but find paddles weird to use. In the Jag they were handy for a swift overtake; in the Aston I don't bother.
Funnily enough in the case of SS3 in the V12S their ease of use becomes second nature really quickly and given their design really suit the car - once you had mastered the “ toe curl “ as you changed gear although full bore shifts also possible. As a veteran of three TVRs I'm happy to use a gear lever if I need to, but find paddles weird to use. In the Jag they were handy for a swift overtake; in the Aston I don't bother.
For my Mustang having a manual gearbox was a prerequisite.
The paddles are steering wheel mounted in most cars. Only a few have column mounted paddles, such as Aston Martin, Ferrari, Maserati, Alfa Romeo, Lamborghini. Might be a few others. The theory behind column mounted is really so you always know where they are if needed. Rather than be crossed over, fully committed, with your left hand on the right side of the wheel, right on the left and a split second of confusion. That said you re unlikely to be changing gear at that corner angle. You don t want the drivetrain disruption causing the rear to step out. Less of an issue with more modern dual clutch gearboxes, or slick, refined ZF8 gearboxes, but still. Counter argument for steering wheel mounted is that it s always the same hand and therefore where your hand is (or should be) all the time.
It s a ZF automatic gearbox in the DB cars (9, S, etc), Vanquish and Virage, and a single clutch semi automated manual in the Vantage. sportshift 1 in earlier V8 s, SS2 in later V8 s and earlier V12 s and SS3 in the final V12 s (VH era cars).
I ve got a PDK gearbox in another car, and it s slick, efficient and effortless. It will deliver a bit of a kick in Sports Plus. Other cars are manual, and therefore engaging. I did want a manual Vantage, but never found the right one, and ended up going for a Sportshift. Having had single clutch semi automated manuals before I knew what to expect and appreciate it for what it is. Therefore I d have probably been happy with either for the intended purpose and driver engagement.
It s a nice problem to have, so drive as many as you can and decide what you want from the car. Vantages being more sports car focused (V8s being more balanced, V12s being more powerful, and slightly heavier in the nose), DB s, Virage, Vanquish being bigger, more GT orientated cars.
Keep us updated with your thought process throughout the journey. It s all part of the fun. Enjoy!
It s a ZF automatic gearbox in the DB cars (9, S, etc), Vanquish and Virage, and a single clutch semi automated manual in the Vantage. sportshift 1 in earlier V8 s, SS2 in later V8 s and earlier V12 s and SS3 in the final V12 s (VH era cars).
I ve got a PDK gearbox in another car, and it s slick, efficient and effortless. It will deliver a bit of a kick in Sports Plus. Other cars are manual, and therefore engaging. I did want a manual Vantage, but never found the right one, and ended up going for a Sportshift. Having had single clutch semi automated manuals before I knew what to expect and appreciate it for what it is. Therefore I d have probably been happy with either for the intended purpose and driver engagement.
It s a nice problem to have, so drive as many as you can and decide what you want from the car. Vantages being more sports car focused (V8s being more balanced, V12s being more powerful, and slightly heavier in the nose), DB s, Virage, Vanquish being bigger, more GT orientated cars.
Keep us updated with your thought process throughout the journey. It s all part of the fun. Enjoy!
Edited by V8VS on Saturday 3rd January 18:10
Edited by V8VS on Saturday 3rd January 18:11
Edited by V8VS on Saturday 3rd January 18:12
V8VS said:
The theory behind column mounted is really so you always know where they are if needed. Rather than be crossed over, fully committed, with your left hand on the right side of the wheel, right on the left and a split second of confusion. That said you re unlikely to be changing gear at that corner angle.
Well indeed; if you're in that situation - ie rally driving - just have a big stick in the middle to bang backwards and forwards.It's curious that as UK roads get more congested, more camera-ridden, more pot-hole-infested and road-work infested, such that you'll be lucky if you can even reach the unfeasibly low speed limit, cars get bigger and more powerful and sporty and aggressive-looking. Maybe it's a backlash... so you can at least pretend you're on the German ring instead of the M25 ring...
There's some great advice and info in this thread. Thanks, guys. I've decided that it has to be either a manual or the 8 speed Tronic III , after having a good talk with myself.
I have owned one car with an automatic transmission in all my years...darn it, that makes me sound old ?.
After reading masses of reviews from owners and journalists, the TTIII is light years ahead of the TTII version, and I feel it'll suit me well.
I thought that 2014 was the launch of TTIII? There are many '14 & '15 plated AM's that state it's the TTIII transmission. Is this true, if is it a case of the dealer not having a clue about the cars?
I may need to up the budget, but hey, you only live once. Apparently!
I have owned one car with an automatic transmission in all my years...darn it, that makes me sound old ?.
After reading masses of reviews from owners and journalists, the TTIII is light years ahead of the TTII version, and I feel it'll suit me well.
I thought that 2014 was the launch of TTIII? There are many '14 & '15 plated AM's that state it's the TTIII transmission. Is this true, if is it a case of the dealer not having a clue about the cars?
I may need to up the budget, but hey, you only live once. Apparently!
Edited by PotHoleHater on Sunday 4th January 10:39
PotHoleHater said:
There's some great advice and info in this thread. Thanks, guys. I've decided that it has to be either a manual or the 8 speed Tronic III , after having a good talk with myself.
I have owned one car with an automatic transmission in all my years...darn it, that makes me sound old ?.
After reading masses of reviews from owners and journalists, the TTIII is light years ahead of the TTII version, and I feel it'll suit me well.
I thought that 2014 was the launch of TTIII? There are many '14 & '15 plated AM's that state it's the TTIII transmission. Is this true, if is it a case of the dealer not having a clue about the cars?
I may need to up the budget, but hey, you only live once. Apparently!
Just here to say two things:I have owned one car with an automatic transmission in all my years...darn it, that makes me sound old ?.
After reading masses of reviews from owners and journalists, the TTIII is light years ahead of the TTII version, and I feel it'll suit me well.
I thought that 2014 was the launch of TTIII? There are many '14 & '15 plated AM's that state it's the TTIII transmission. Is this true, if is it a case of the dealer not having a clue about the cars?
I may need to up the budget, but hey, you only live once. Apparently!
Edited by PotHoleHater on Sunday 4th January 10:39
1. Love your nickname
2. Owned a Vantage N420 with the SportShift 1 box for 6 years, and it was by far the weakest link of the car. Especially in normal traffic, fairly painful.
EVR said:
Just here to say two things:
1. Love your nickname
2. Owned a Vantage N420 with the SportShift 1 box for 6 years, and it was by far the weakest link of the car. Especially in normal traffic, fairly painful.
Hahaa! Thanks, EVR. I have heard similar regarding the first and second generations of those transmissions. Version III sound like they finally hit the sweet spot, however. I can´t wait to get behind the wheel and see for myself. 1. Love your nickname
2. Owned a Vantage N420 with the SportShift 1 box for 6 years, and it was by far the weakest link of the car. Especially in normal traffic, fairly painful.
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