Emergency Auto Landing
Discussion
I didn't know this existed, but the first emergency auto land happened on Sunday.
https://youtu.be/K3Nl3LOZNjc?si=AiW6GxLkHEYIdlQi
https://youtu.be/K3Nl3LOZNjc?si=AiW6GxLkHEYIdlQi
egomeister said:
Impressive stuff, although one thing confuses me. Reports say the pilots were not incapacitated, but chose to use to allow the autoland to bring the plane down - taking that as read, why did they not engage with the radio call?
I presume there is an SOP - which again presuming - is to let the aircraft communicate to avoid confusion?Just a guess.
gotoPzero said:
egomeister said:
Impressive stuff, although one thing confuses me. Reports say the pilots were not incapacitated, but chose to use to allow the autoland to bring the plane down - taking that as read, why did they not engage with the radio call?
I presume there is an SOP - which again presuming - is to let the aircraft communicate to avoid confusion?Just a guess.
egomeister said:
gotoPzero said:
egomeister said:
Impressive stuff, although one thing confuses me. Reports say the pilots were not incapacitated, but chose to use to allow the autoland to bring the plane down - taking that as read, why did they not engage with the radio call?
I presume there is an SOP - which again presuming - is to let the aircraft communicate to avoid confusion?Just a guess.
I'm not sure about that.
The system will be able to transmit info about parts of the plane where it has access to data, but thats not necessarily a full picture of overall condition or anything specifics that might benefit from mitigation. It also won't be able to tell them anything about those on board which is ultimately the most important factor in all this.
If the pilots were not incapacitated I struggle to see why they wouldn't communicate in some way with ATC. If the aircraft was in serious trouble and it took all their efforts to fly it then fine, but from what I have read it was flown out the next day which seems to rule anything catastrophic out.
A bit of AI investigation puts the full checklist at sub 10 min to complete and from what I can tell it took ~20min from incident to landing. I don't know anything much about the system or its operation so I could well be wrong, but it seems a little odd to me.
The system will be able to transmit info about parts of the plane where it has access to data, but thats not necessarily a full picture of overall condition or anything specifics that might benefit from mitigation. It also won't be able to tell them anything about those on board which is ultimately the most important factor in all this.
If the pilots were not incapacitated I struggle to see why they wouldn't communicate in some way with ATC. If the aircraft was in serious trouble and it took all their efforts to fly it then fine, but from what I have read it was flown out the next day which seems to rule anything catastrophic out.
A bit of AI investigation puts the full checklist at sub 10 min to complete and from what I can tell it took ~20min from incident to landing. I don't know anything much about the system or its operation so I could well be wrong, but it seems a little odd to me.
I'm not making a judgement on the auto land system either way beyond it being an impressive tool to have available.
I'm just intrigued why the pilots appear to have not made any contact with ATC if they weren't incapacitated when it seems that there would likely have been the time and ability to do so
I'm just intrigued why the pilots appear to have not made any contact with ATC if they weren't incapacitated when it seems that there would likely have been the time and ability to do so
egomeister said:
Impressive stuff, although one thing confuses me. Reports say the pilots were not incapacitated, but chose to use to allow the autoland to bring the plane down - taking that as read, why did they not engage with the radio call?
From what I read, they were incapacitated due to a pressurisation issue and elected to let the aircraft complete the emergency auto land. Hypoxia is pretty risky and can cause you to make pretty bad decisions - I bet the training you receive for this system will tell you to leave it engaged if you felt the need to use it.https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...and-activat...
Buffalo River Aviation added more context to the Autoland activation in a statement from CEO Chris Townsley: ?Due to the complexity of the specific situation, including instrument meteorological conditions, mountainous terrain, active icing conditions, unknown reasons for loss of pressure, and the binary (all-or-nothing) function of the Garmin emergency systems; the pilots, exercising conservative judgement under their emergency command authority (FAR 91.3), made the decision to leave the system engaged while monitoring its performance and attempting communications as able within the constraints of the system. While the system performed exactly as expected, the pilots were prepared to resume manual control of the aircraft should the system have malfunctioned in any way.
Reports of pilot incapacitation are incorrect and result solely from the Garmin emergency system's automated communication and reporting functions. In this case, the crew consciously elected to preserve and use all available tools and minimize additional variables in an unpredictable, emergent situation, prioritizing life and a safe outcome over all other factors, as they are trained to do. The aircraft returned home the following day without incident.
==
What a crock of s
t! This is deflection and doubling down. By their own admission the pilots were not incapacitated and this was also confirmed by the fire crew who were most surprised to be greeted by 2 chatty and fully functioning pilots who exited the aircraft unaided and required zero medical treatment.
Also, as observed on numerous pilot channels, if your pressurisation isn't working, you get it back down to 10-11k feet and don your oxygen mask. You don't continue your climb to FL230 and then stay at FL180 for another 10-15 minutes, per the flight logs
Further, there was nothing stopping either of the 2 pilots communicating with the ATC to let them know their health and aircraft status. The Garmin blurb specifically states that this does not affect the automated system in any way and would have meant that the airport could have remained open instead of them closing it as a precaution because ATC had no info on the aircraft state nor the pilots, beyond the automated system announcing that they were incapacitated which was clearly complete BS.
Clearly a brown envelope Garmin PR stunt to make the entire world aware of their $200k system and whom will be talking about it for months to come. I'm willing to bet in the developed world there isn't a single pilot who hasn't heard this story. I hope it backfires on them spectacularly when the FAA do their investigation and throw the book at them. I would not at all be surprised to find out some day that Victor was paid to produce this for youtube, with it carefully planned and coordinated with Garmin in advance that it would "divert" to an airfield then is well covered ground and air reception wise on liveatc.net.
Buffalo River Aviation added more context to the Autoland activation in a statement from CEO Chris Townsley: ?Due to the complexity of the specific situation, including instrument meteorological conditions, mountainous terrain, active icing conditions, unknown reasons for loss of pressure, and the binary (all-or-nothing) function of the Garmin emergency systems; the pilots, exercising conservative judgement under their emergency command authority (FAR 91.3), made the decision to leave the system engaged while monitoring its performance and attempting communications as able within the constraints of the system. While the system performed exactly as expected, the pilots were prepared to resume manual control of the aircraft should the system have malfunctioned in any way.
Reports of pilot incapacitation are incorrect and result solely from the Garmin emergency system's automated communication and reporting functions. In this case, the crew consciously elected to preserve and use all available tools and minimize additional variables in an unpredictable, emergent situation, prioritizing life and a safe outcome over all other factors, as they are trained to do. The aircraft returned home the following day without incident.
==
What a crock of s
t! This is deflection and doubling down. By their own admission the pilots were not incapacitated and this was also confirmed by the fire crew who were most surprised to be greeted by 2 chatty and fully functioning pilots who exited the aircraft unaided and required zero medical treatment.Also, as observed on numerous pilot channels, if your pressurisation isn't working, you get it back down to 10-11k feet and don your oxygen mask. You don't continue your climb to FL230 and then stay at FL180 for another 10-15 minutes, per the flight logs
Further, there was nothing stopping either of the 2 pilots communicating with the ATC to let them know their health and aircraft status. The Garmin blurb specifically states that this does not affect the automated system in any way and would have meant that the airport could have remained open instead of them closing it as a precaution because ATC had no info on the aircraft state nor the pilots, beyond the automated system announcing that they were incapacitated which was clearly complete BS.Clearly a brown envelope Garmin PR stunt to make the entire world aware of their $200k system and whom will be talking about it for months to come. I'm willing to bet in the developed world there isn't a single pilot who hasn't heard this story. I hope it backfires on them spectacularly when the FAA do their investigation and throw the book at them. I would not at all be surprised to find out some day that Victor was paid to produce this for youtube, with it carefully planned and coordinated with Garmin in advance that it would "divert" to an airfield then is well covered ground and air reception wise on liveatc.net.
Edited by Tisy on Sunday 28th December 20:39
ecs said:
From what I read, they were incapacitated due to a pressurisation issue and elected to let the aircraft complete the emergency auto land. Hypoxia is pretty risky and can cause you to make pretty bad decisions - I bet the training you receive for this system will tell you to leave it engaged if you felt the need to use it.
The CEO of the operater subsequently clarified that the pilots weren't incapacitated, and confusion in that respect was down to the automated messages from the auto land system using that word. They elected to leave the auto land active after it auto engaged due to the loss of pressurisation.48k said:
egomeister said:
A bit of AI investigation puts the full checklist at sub 10 min to complete
Minutes ??? Checklists take secondsEven with those generous assumptions, it's still half of the 20min or so that it took the plane to land - hence my confusion why the pilots didn't contact ATC
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