Considering a DB9.2
Discussion
Looking to change car next year and my shortlist includes a 2013-on DB9 and a Virage. I've asked some questions about the Virage on another thread but I have a few on the later DB9...
- Is the DB9.2 potentially susceptible to the misfire/cat ingestion issue?
- I understand the later DB9 has more power and more sophisticated active suspension than the Virage. Do these tweaks make for a significant difference?
- How long do the CCM brake discs last and what is the cost for replacements?
- The DB9 has auto-lights and auto-wipers, do the auto-lights include auto high/dipped beam?
- Parking - was a reversing camera an option or standard? Same for front and rear PDC?
- Audio - was there an upgraded sound system option?
- Are there any must-have options to look for?
8bit said:
Looking to change car next year and my shortlist includes a 2013-on DB9 and a Virage. I've asked some questions about the Virage on another thread but I have a few on the later DB9...
My answers:- Is the DB9.2 potentially susceptible to the misfire/cat ingestion issue?
- I understand the later DB9 has more power and more sophisticated active suspension than the Virage. Do these tweaks make for a significant difference?
- How long do the CCM brake discs last and what is the cost for replacements?
- The DB9 has auto-lights and auto-wipers, do the auto-lights include auto high/dipped beam?
- Parking - was a reversing camera an option or standard? Same for front and rear PDC?
- Audio - was there an upgraded sound system option?
- Are there any must-have options to look for?
Cats - Yes, and as the cars get older the (very small) risk of cat breakup and ingestion will increase.
Yes, more power is good and the adaptive suspension suits it.
CCBs - Depends how they’ve been used and cared for. Track days - not long, cleaning with solvents, not long. Normal day to day driving and washing with non acidic cleaners and/or water, many many miles (60-80k). Cost of replacement is around £10k for the fronts.
No auto beam dipping.
Rear camera only, front and rear sensors standard.
Yes B&O, quite rare.
No, buy the spec you like.
The DB9.2 is a great car and one of the prettiest Astons IMO. Still miss mine very much.
Just bought one today. Went to an AM dealer to look at a carbon edition, which I was only semi interested in. They had just taken in an ‘16 model which ticked all the specifications that I was looking for, so I stuck up my hand to save them the trouble of advertising it..
Originally I was thinking about a ‘09-12 model, but with the depreciation now hopefully flattening, I thought I could run to a 2.0. I believe they modified the engine design in ‘08 which largely eliminates to risk of the tick. I think catalyst ingestion is still possible from a misfiring engine but at least any ceramic particles now have somewhere to go rather than been trapped and thus destroying the cylinder lining. (Which is my lay understanding of the situation)
CCBs there are some horror stories out there but I reckon that these must be a positive rather than a negative. My car had done 20k miles and the pad wasn’t yet half worn. So if the disks last 3 pads, 120-150k miles sounds reasonable. Mis/hard treatment will shorten the life. The disc should be smooth and silvery. Feels like a cheese grater - walk away. Bamford Rose have a YouTube on this.
Rear parking camera is standard from 2016
The semi aniline leather (the grain is very muted) is gorgeous to touch
The stereo is awesome, although apparently mine is an upgraded one (not B&O). Mine had been also upgraded to CarPlay. As usual, my grandkids had been mucking about in my Spotify account, so when I played to top of the list, the poor salesman wasn’t quite sure how to react when “My Bum is Itchy” came booming through the car.
The 2017 models have digital control panels which some dislike.
The 2016 model still just qualifies for AMs Timeless guarantee (which only can apply to cars of under 10years old). This must be very valuable for a 9 and a bit old car.
Originally I was thinking about a ‘09-12 model, but with the depreciation now hopefully flattening, I thought I could run to a 2.0. I believe they modified the engine design in ‘08 which largely eliminates to risk of the tick. I think catalyst ingestion is still possible from a misfiring engine but at least any ceramic particles now have somewhere to go rather than been trapped and thus destroying the cylinder lining. (Which is my lay understanding of the situation)
CCBs there are some horror stories out there but I reckon that these must be a positive rather than a negative. My car had done 20k miles and the pad wasn’t yet half worn. So if the disks last 3 pads, 120-150k miles sounds reasonable. Mis/hard treatment will shorten the life. The disc should be smooth and silvery. Feels like a cheese grater - walk away. Bamford Rose have a YouTube on this.
Rear parking camera is standard from 2016
The semi aniline leather (the grain is very muted) is gorgeous to touch
The stereo is awesome, although apparently mine is an upgraded one (not B&O). Mine had been also upgraded to CarPlay. As usual, my grandkids had been mucking about in my Spotify account, so when I played to top of the list, the poor salesman wasn’t quite sure how to react when “My Bum is Itchy” came booming through the car.
The 2017 models have digital control panels which some dislike.
The 2016 model still just qualifies for AMs Timeless guarantee (which only can apply to cars of under 10years old). This must be very valuable for a 9 and a bit old car.
M1AGM said:
My answers:
Cats - Yes, and as the cars get older the (very small) risk of cat breakup and ingestion will increase.
Yes, more power is good and the adaptive suspension suits it.
CCBs - Depends how they ve been used and cared for. Track days - not long, cleaning with solvents, not long. Normal day to day driving and washing with non acidic cleaners and/or water, many many miles (60-80k). Cost of replacement is around £10k for the fronts.
No auto beam dipping.
Rear camera only, front and rear sensors standard.
Yes B&O, quite rare.
No, buy the spec you like.
The DB9.2 is a great car and one of the prettiest Astons IMO. Still miss mine very much.
DB9.2 are just awesome cars, very quick and still an understated styling, just before the agressive look came in. Andy's (M1AGM) car was superb, wish I could afford one.Cats - Yes, and as the cars get older the (very small) risk of cat breakup and ingestion will increase.
Yes, more power is good and the adaptive suspension suits it.
CCBs - Depends how they ve been used and cared for. Track days - not long, cleaning with solvents, not long. Normal day to day driving and washing with non acidic cleaners and/or water, many many miles (60-80k). Cost of replacement is around £10k for the fronts.
No auto beam dipping.
Rear camera only, front and rear sensors standard.
Yes B&O, quite rare.
No, buy the spec you like.
The DB9.2 is a great car and one of the prettiest Astons IMO. Still miss mine very much.
Many thanks all for the input. Very useful.
68Jaybee said:
Just bought one today.
Congrats! Pics?68Jaybee said:
I believe they modified the engine design in 08 which largely eliminates to risk of the tick. I think catalyst ingestion is still possible from a misfiring engine but at least any ceramic particles now have somewhere to go rather than been trapped and thus destroying the cylinder lining. (Which is my lay understanding of the situation)
Interesting, thanks. So was/is the "tick" issue related to the cat ingestion issue? When you say "ceramic particles now have somewhere to go" do you mean the DB9.2 engine was revised in some way which makes the severity of a disintegrating catalyst less destructive? Say, compared to an earlier DB9 or a Virage?8bit said:
Interesting, thanks. So was/is the "tick" issue related to the cat ingestion issue? When you say "ceramic particles now have somewhere to go" do you mean the DB9.2 engine was revised in some way which makes the severity of a disintegrating catalyst less destructive? Say, compared to an earlier DB9 or a Virage?
The tick is a specific issue with early DB9 engines and was engineered out I think. It s different to the cat ingestion issue. The cat ingestion issue: the NA V12 engine has a system that returns unburnt exhaust gas into the cylinders (an EGR - exhaust gas return valve, if memory serves). The primary cats are very close to the cylinder bank and the EGR though. A misfire can result in enough unburnt fuel hitting the hot cat to cause a small bit of burning, and then bits of burning ceramic cat get drawn back into the cylinder head with not great results.
AFAIK there was no redesign to moderate cat ingestion issues, and they are common to DB9s, Virages, NA DBSs, mk 2 Vanquishes, Rapides and V12 Vantages, all of which use fundamentally the same exhaust manifold design with cats proximate to the EGR valve.
McGurk hates Bamford Rose and the feeling is reciprocated as far as I can tell. BR considers cat ingestion to be a genuine risk; recommends (and sells) primary cat deletion to safeguard against it, and says it has a mortuary of knackered V12 engines. McGurk says it s never seen cat ingestion and has written to the DVLA to get confirmation that cat deletion makes a car illegal (and has posted as much online).
If you had suspected cat ingestion, I doubt you d take your car to McGurk but you might take it to BR. The fact one of them says they haven t seen it and the other says they ve seen a lot of it may simply reflect where they each position themselves on the matter.
Yeah I agree with the above.
Regarding the tick it seems that any glass key V12 aren't affected, apparently BR gets around 2 450bhp DB9 cars in every month with the tick, cost to the owners roughly £18K.
The cat ingestion, well recently I've been reading a DBS V12 with cat ingestion, plus I've heard of a 450bhp DB9 and Rapide so it is going on, the problem is it's not obvious the engine is misfiring until it's gets very bad, plus motorway driving even on a badly misfiring engine can be smooth and you do get petrol burning on the cat.
The cars warning system is not fit for purpose, the best thing is every service is to look at AMDS and ensure the coils and plugs are replaced maybe every 5 years.
I had mine removed years ago at BR, not sure if Mike is still doing it.
BR and Mcgurks don't like each other but they are slightly different businesses, BR predominantly service cars and have a engine rebuild facility. Mcgurks sell cars and service, and when they need to remove an engine for an internal repair they take the engine out themselves and send it to Bruce Burmingham for the engine strip down and repair.
Regarding the tick it seems that any glass key V12 aren't affected, apparently BR gets around 2 450bhp DB9 cars in every month with the tick, cost to the owners roughly £18K.
The cat ingestion, well recently I've been reading a DBS V12 with cat ingestion, plus I've heard of a 450bhp DB9 and Rapide so it is going on, the problem is it's not obvious the engine is misfiring until it's gets very bad, plus motorway driving even on a badly misfiring engine can be smooth and you do get petrol burning on the cat.
The cars warning system is not fit for purpose, the best thing is every service is to look at AMDS and ensure the coils and plugs are replaced maybe every 5 years.
I had mine removed years ago at BR, not sure if Mike is still doing it.
BR and Mcgurks don't like each other but they are slightly different businesses, BR predominantly service cars and have a engine rebuild facility. Mcgurks sell cars and service, and when they need to remove an engine for an internal repair they take the engine out themselves and send it to Bruce Burmingham for the engine strip down and repair.
Edited by paulrog1 on Thursday 11th December 10:47
As a postscript:
There are three ways to address the primary cats, assuming you’re minded to.
First, have the exhaust manifolds removed and the primary cats stripped from them. The manifolds go back on the car and you get an ECU flash to suppress an EML light telling you there’s an issue with the engine (that issue being that the sensor at the primary cars can’t read anything). This is not reversible in that you can’t reinstate the cat material into your manifolds. But you could reverse it by buying new or s/h manifolds and fitting those in place of your gutted manifolds, and flashing the ECU back to factory form.
Secondly, remove and store your manifolds; buy a second OEM pair, gut the cats from those and install them. You still need the ECU flash. This is easier to reverse because you’ve still got your original manifolds with cats intact. It’s basically option 1 with some foresight/forward planning, and more money thrown at it.
Thirdly, remove and store your manifolds; buy a bespoke equal length tubing set of manifolds made by AP Velocity or BR and install those. Basically option 2 with a wrinkle. Equal length tubing has a reputation for making the engine and exhaust note a bit higher in pitch - more V12 Ferrari than V12 Aston.
There are three ways to address the primary cats, assuming you’re minded to.
First, have the exhaust manifolds removed and the primary cats stripped from them. The manifolds go back on the car and you get an ECU flash to suppress an EML light telling you there’s an issue with the engine (that issue being that the sensor at the primary cars can’t read anything). This is not reversible in that you can’t reinstate the cat material into your manifolds. But you could reverse it by buying new or s/h manifolds and fitting those in place of your gutted manifolds, and flashing the ECU back to factory form.
Secondly, remove and store your manifolds; buy a second OEM pair, gut the cats from those and install them. You still need the ECU flash. This is easier to reverse because you’ve still got your original manifolds with cats intact. It’s basically option 1 with some foresight/forward planning, and more money thrown at it.
Thirdly, remove and store your manifolds; buy a bespoke equal length tubing set of manifolds made by AP Velocity or BR and install those. Basically option 2 with a wrinkle. Equal length tubing has a reputation for making the engine and exhaust note a bit higher in pitch - more V12 Ferrari than V12 Aston.
Thanks all. I read a bit about the ingestion issue when I was researching Virages - just misunderstood 68JB on the part about the later DB9.2 engine specifically, thought maybe there was a change which lessened the risk or impact of the issue.
Presumably misfires trigger fault codes like on other cars? I have a good diagnostic device which I have used to check for misfires on my current C63 and previous XKRs. Inspecting the cats doesn't seem to be too difficult either once the wheel and arch liner are out.
Presumably misfires trigger fault codes like on other cars? I have a good diagnostic device which I have used to check for misfires on my current C63 and previous XKRs. Inspecting the cats doesn't seem to be too difficult either once the wheel and arch liner are out.
8bit said:
Thanks all. I read a bit about the ingestion issue when I was researching Virages - just misunderstood 68JB on the part about the later DB9.2 engine specifically, thought maybe there was a change which lessened the risk or impact of the issue.
Presumably misfires trigger fault codes like on other cars? I have a good diagnostic device which I have used to check for misfires on my current C63 and previous XKRs. Inspecting the cats doesn't seem to be too difficult either once the wheel and arch liner are out.
Misfiring triggers a CEL when it's *really* bad - before then, some scanners allow you to see counts of misfires in the last running session, and that can help. Presumably misfires trigger fault codes like on other cars? I have a good diagnostic device which I have used to check for misfires on my current C63 and previous XKRs. Inspecting the cats doesn't seem to be too difficult either once the wheel and arch liner are out.
Coming from the BMW community, I very frequently see the internet take a pretty niche issue and blow it up way bigger than it should be. I see it as a balancing act. I am not really interested in gutting my primary cats, changing my secondary cats, getting a tune, and hoping I still pass emissions tests. Instead, I'll change my spark plugs and coils every 5ish years and stick a scope in the O2 sensor hole while I'm doing it to check how things look.
andratch said:
Misfiring triggers a CEL when it's *really* bad - before then, some scanners allow you to see counts of misfires in the last running session, and that can help.
Coming from the BMW community, I very frequently see the internet take a pretty niche issue and blow it up way bigger than it should be. I see it as a balancing act. I am not really interested in gutting my primary cats, changing my secondary cats, getting a tune, and hoping I still pass emissions tests. Instead, I'll change my spark plugs and coils every 5ish years and stick a scope in the O2 sensor hole while I'm doing it to check how things look.
Got it, thanks. Pretty sure my device does allow count readings.Coming from the BMW community, I very frequently see the internet take a pretty niche issue and blow it up way bigger than it should be. I see it as a balancing act. I am not really interested in gutting my primary cats, changing my secondary cats, getting a tune, and hoping I still pass emissions tests. Instead, I'll change my spark plugs and coils every 5ish years and stick a scope in the O2 sensor hole while I'm doing it to check how things look.
Yes, coming from Jaguar I've noticed the same thing, particularly around the 5.0 V8 timing chains and tensioners. The internet would have you believe those engines are time bombs but in reality the ratio of failures to number of these engines out there is pretty low. Didn't put me off buying and enjoying one for 5 years, just made sure I was aware of the risks and symptoms and did what I could to mitigate that. Same approach here.
Couple of further questions:
- Was the reversing camera standard or an option?
- Do these have heated seats and/or steering wheel, again standard or optional?
- AMDS - quick google suggests "official" units go for around the £9k+ mark on eBay. Is there a most cost-effective way to get one?
I can't answer your questions 8bit but as a fellow former XK owner, welcome to Astonland
An XK is a 'normal' car - lovely shape but all fairly normal underneath. By contrast Astons might look a bit similar on the surface, but are completely different underneath!
Regarding your current car hunt, remember that there are relatively few DB9.2s/Virages around, and most of them are monochrome. If you want black, you're home and dry, but if you want a more exclusive spec, you may just have to grab the first one you see...!
An XK is a 'normal' car - lovely shape but all fairly normal underneath. By contrast Astons might look a bit similar on the surface, but are completely different underneath!
Regarding your current car hunt, remember that there are relatively few DB9.2s/Virages around, and most of them are monochrome. If you want black, you're home and dry, but if you want a more exclusive spec, you may just have to grab the first one you see...!
The Definitive Guide to AMs has reversing cameras as standard from 2016, but the details of my car registered in 2016 indicate the buyer paid £995 for them as an option.
I’ve also got heated seats, so these appear to be standard.
Thanks to all re the cat advice. I too was alarmed when first hearing of the problem but after considerable delving into the issue led me to conclude that it’s something to keep half on eye on rather than be overly concerned.
I’ve also got heated seats, so these appear to be standard.
Thanks to all re the cat advice. I too was alarmed when first hearing of the problem but after considerable delving into the issue led me to conclude that it’s something to keep half on eye on rather than be overly concerned.
I think I’m too much of a forum noob to be permitted to post car porn at the moment
It’s an obsidian black DB 9 with truffle cream interior and piano black veneer. (Thankfully I don’t wear blue denim.)
I preferred it to the carbon black alternative, especially as it has more chrome such as around the indicator panels on the side of the bonnet.
The next two weeks will feel like forever until I can take delivery.
It’s an obsidian black DB 9 with truffle cream interior and piano black veneer. (Thankfully I don’t wear blue denim.)
I preferred it to the carbon black alternative, especially as it has more chrome such as around the indicator panels on the side of the bonnet.
The next two weeks will feel like forever until I can take delivery.
68Jaybee said:
I think I m too much of a forum noob to be permitted to post car porn at the moment
It s an obsidian black DB 9 with truffle cream interior and piano black veneer. (Thankfully I don t wear blue denim.)
I preferred it to the carbon black alternative, especially as it has more chrome such as around the indicator panels on the side of the bonnet.
The next two weeks will feel like forever until I can take delivery.
Congratulations. Sounds lovely. AM paint is very soft, depending on how the car is now I’d get it paint corrected and PPF’d asap, especially with black.It s an obsidian black DB 9 with truffle cream interior and piano black veneer. (Thankfully I don t wear blue denim.)
I preferred it to the carbon black alternative, especially as it has more chrome such as around the indicator panels on the side of the bonnet.
The next two weeks will feel like forever until I can take delivery.
I agree about the carbon.
It had some small stone chips on the bonnet (the car was fresh in and not fully prepped), which in my mind don t look bad thanks to the sparkle within the obsidian.
I ticked the box for Smart & alloy/wheel Cover and ceramic coating. I normally prefer to self insure, but I know I can be a bit careless with curbing
Ceramic coating has made cleaning my current BMW run around much more pleasant.
If the paintwork was pristine I might have considered the covering. I can live with a few chips, especially as the aluminium won t rust. In any event the Smart Cover will last me for the next 3 years anyway.
Or am I being daft?
I ticked the box for Smart & alloy/wheel Cover and ceramic coating. I normally prefer to self insure, but I know I can be a bit careless with curbing
Ceramic coating has made cleaning my current BMW run around much more pleasant.
If the paintwork was pristine I might have considered the covering. I can live with a few chips, especially as the aluminium won t rust. In any event the Smart Cover will last me for the next 3 years anyway.
Or am I being daft?
Edited by 68Jaybee on Thursday 11th December 22:49
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