Running, but supposedly fitness declining
Discussion
In the last couple of months I've finally kicked my arse into gear to start getting fit again.
From the heady heights of 2016-2018 when I was training to climb some big mountains, I was running up to 10km 3 or 4 times a week, a couple of half marathons etc.
I've always used the Jabra headphone and app to track everything. Back then my fitness got up to 'Excellent' at 58ml/kg/min, as per below:
Having done very little in terms of fitness/running since 2018, I started again mid October, quite quickly getting from a painful 1km on the treadmill to now doing 5km each time I go to the gym. But the thing that's somewhat annoying me is that the last two or three runs I've done in the last week, the app seems to be telling me my fitness is declining:
I guess I'm wondering how much attention I should be paying to the app? Given I was struggling to do more than 1km 6 weeks ago to now doing 5km each time, my fitness must be getting a lot better. But the 50ml/kg/min from my run yesterday is the same 50 as my first run in 7 years back in October!
From the heady heights of 2016-2018 when I was training to climb some big mountains, I was running up to 10km 3 or 4 times a week, a couple of half marathons etc.
I've always used the Jabra headphone and app to track everything. Back then my fitness got up to 'Excellent' at 58ml/kg/min, as per below:
Having done very little in terms of fitness/running since 2018, I started again mid October, quite quickly getting from a painful 1km on the treadmill to now doing 5km each time I go to the gym. But the thing that's somewhat annoying me is that the last two or three runs I've done in the last week, the app seems to be telling me my fitness is declining:
I guess I'm wondering how much attention I should be paying to the app? Given I was struggling to do more than 1km 6 weeks ago to now doing 5km each time, my fitness must be getting a lot better. But the 50ml/kg/min from my run yesterday is the same 50 as my first run in 7 years back in October!
Brainpox said:
If you re getting fitter why would you listen to the app? Clearly it s bulls
t
Well back when I was training all those years ago I found it very motivating to watch that number creep up, I think I started at "Good" then up to "Very Good" then "Excellent". I hate running really, so anything to keep me motivated was a good thing. t I've never really paid attention to the V02 max as it's just off my watch rather than properly measured. My peak (measured with a watch) was 60 something when I was fairly fit (running halves regularly, 21 min 5k etc). I then swapped my watch and it declined over the next few years even though I was running ultra marathons and was at that point doing a 19 min 5k.
If you want to use V02 as a benchmark go and get it measured properly. Personally i'd do a parkrun or something similar to get a 5K time and use that as your benchmark to fitness.
If you want to use V02 as a benchmark go and get it measured properly. Personally i'd do a parkrun or something similar to get a 5K time and use that as your benchmark to fitness.
fiatpower said:
I've never really paid attention to the V02 max as it's just off my watch rather than properly measured. My peak (measured with a watch) was 60 something when I was fairly fit (running halves regularly, 21 min 5k etc). I then swapped my watch and it declined over the next few years even though I was running ultra marathons and was at that point doing a 19 min 5k.
If you want to use V02 as a benchmark go and get it measured properly. Personally i'd do a parkrun or something similar to get a 5K time and use that as your benchmark to fitness.
Yeah I was around the 22 mins mark for 5km at my best, currently about 26 mins so I guess that tells me all I need to know. If you want to use V02 as a benchmark go and get it measured properly. Personally i'd do a parkrun or something similar to get a 5K time and use that as your benchmark to fitness.
Sorry to come back to this topic but hoping someone more scientific than me can explain what my app must be thinking is going on in relation to Vo2Max
Since I’ve started running again in October, I’ve run 29 times, steadily increasing from a pretty pathetic 1-3km to 7km for my last 3 runs. However pretty much EVERY run the app still tells me my fitness is declining.
Graph below since October.
Now, I know I’ve been told to ignore it, and I generally do, but I am intrigued as to how it is coming to this conclusion each time. Is it going to think my fitness is declining forever?!
Since I’ve started running again in October, I’ve run 29 times, steadily increasing from a pretty pathetic 1-3km to 7km for my last 3 runs. However pretty much EVERY run the app still tells me my fitness is declining.
Graph below since October.
Now, I know I’ve been told to ignore it, and I generally do, but I am intrigued as to how it is coming to this conclusion each time. Is it going to think my fitness is declining forever?!
Do you think the Vo2 max calculation was right to start with? Or now? Or neither? Looking online, a 26 minute 5km suggest a vo2 max significantly below 50, so maybe December's calculation was/is still adjusting down? I will say I'm a cyclist not a runner, so I could be wrong.
I would just go off your improvements based on time/distance/heart rate/perceived effort for now.
Edited to say, keep at it. At the end of the day you're getting fitter.
You could try a Cooper test if you want to know where you're at.
I would just go off your improvements based on time/distance/heart rate/perceived effort for now.
Edited to say, keep at it. At the end of the day you're getting fitter.
You could try a Cooper test if you want to know where you're at.
GregK2 said:
It's a fairly irrelevant metric to be tracking as "fitness" (VO2 max)
I would suggest focus on your weekly mileage chart, keep that line going up and your fitness will undoubtedly improve.
Yeah I am doing my best at ignoring, clearly fitness is improving given I'm doing 7km regularly vs struggling with 2-3km 3 months ago.....but still, it'd be nice if the chart agreed I would suggest focus on your weekly mileage chart, keep that line going up and your fitness will undoubtedly improve.
I agree with Badda - the VO2 is a very inaccurate measurement, especially when taken off a watch. It's a best guess/ algorythmn.
I have binned my Training Peaks and gone back to a HRM and pen and paper (not quite, but almost). I've had a couple of years way from bike racing, so getting back to fitness and using an app is just depressing. I just run and ride now, look at how my max heart rate sits, look at my resting heart rate, note how I feel during and in recovery and log the times for 2 set test runs, which I do every 3 weeks (with a week of easy thereafter).
Back in my glory days, I did 3hr marathon using a first gen heart rate monitor the size of a Panerai. I had a Runners World log book and noted my time, max and minimum, how I felt and got on with my training. I soon got used to using HR as an indication of over training, if I was fighting the lurgi it was max at a low level, so I would adapt my training. Allied to the average HR from the monitor, I had enough to plot progress.
I also found it much more enjoyable, which is why I have dumped Training Peaks, to get back to just enjoying the ride or the run.
I have binned my Training Peaks and gone back to a HRM and pen and paper (not quite, but almost). I've had a couple of years way from bike racing, so getting back to fitness and using an app is just depressing. I just run and ride now, look at how my max heart rate sits, look at my resting heart rate, note how I feel during and in recovery and log the times for 2 set test runs, which I do every 3 weeks (with a week of easy thereafter).
Back in my glory days, I did 3hr marathon using a first gen heart rate monitor the size of a Panerai. I had a Runners World log book and noted my time, max and minimum, how I felt and got on with my training. I soon got used to using HR as an indication of over training, if I was fighting the lurgi it was max at a low level, so I would adapt my training. Allied to the average HR from the monitor, I had enough to plot progress.
I also found it much more enjoyable, which is why I have dumped Training Peaks, to get back to just enjoying the ride or the run.
The points are well made that VO2 max is only one metric of fitness and is poorly estimated by devices/apps. There is also the mathematical phenomenon of regression to the mean. What starts as an inaccurate estimate will gradually trend towards a mean as more data is accumulated. Even this mean isn't 'true'. It's just the best guess the device and app can come up with.
For an accurate measure you have to do a maximal effort on a ramp test in lab conditions.
Depending on how much VO2 max training (ie max effort intervals) you've done in the last decade, it's not unreasonable that your VO2 max would drop ten points in a decade. It would be very hard work to limit it to less than five.
For an accurate measure you have to do a maximal effort on a ramp test in lab conditions.
Depending on how much VO2 max training (ie max effort intervals) you've done in the last decade, it's not unreasonable that your VO2 max would drop ten points in a decade. It would be very hard work to limit it to less than five.
As I understand it VO2max is the maximum rate you can consume oxygen, so in order to calculate it you really need to some short duration high intensity exercise where you're limited by your oxygen consumption. If you're only measuring the effort on it on 20+ minute runs I doubly you're getting a true measure of it, and if you've been increasing your distance then you've possibly gone from being limited by sprint capability (VO2max) to limited by endurance (lactate threshold). Maybe. I'm no expert but this was touched on in a recent More Or Less episode where the presenter had is VO2max tested properly
https://www.bbc.com/audio/play/p0mxgz9z
https://www.bbc.com/audio/play/p0mxgz9z
WH16 said:
Just remember people trained long before these apps and calculations existed. You will either get faster, go further, or recover faster, and you should feel it. Don't fixate too much on what an app is telling you.
Sound common sense there. However "fit" you get there will always be other people who are "fitter". The big question is what you actually want to achieve, and often there's a "why" attached as well.How fit is fit enough? That's a tough one. If you google stuff like "how fit are boat race crews" it puts things in perspective.
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