NHS - £1B to fund Redundancy round

[MercedesClassic]

A step on the right direction or window dressing?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3w9y9dpv5qo

Will it actually translate into improved services and reduced waiting times?

Edited by MercedesClassic on Wednesday 12th November 07:19

[Carl_VivaEspana]

The problem is that NHS England was the glue or the plaster used to fix the Blair era reforms and get the trusts working together again.

No issue with abolishing it but I would reverse the stupid concept of pitching each trust against one another.

Like someone said in the other thread the NHS doesn't need 100+ CIOs as they all generally have the same mission.

[phil-sti]

MercedesClassic said:

A step on the right direction or window dressing?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3w9y9dpv5qo

Will it actually translate into improved services and reduced waiting times?

Edited by MercedesClassic on Wednesday 12th November 07:19

Wifes sister has just been through this as a band 7 nurse. They have cut the team in half (6 stay, 6 leave) and the redundancy offer was a stagering 1 months pay for every year they have been with the NHS, madness. The team can't cope with the workload they have and you have 6 nurses that will now come back from redundancy and work agency shifts as they can't work directly for the NHS for 6 months.

[TA14]

phil-sti said:

Wifes sister has just been through this as a band 7 nurse. They have cut the team in half (6 stay, 6 leave) and the redundancy offer was a stagering 1 months pay for every year they have been with the NHS, madness. The team can't cope with the workload they have and you have 6 nurses that will now come back from redundancy and work agency shifts as they can't work directly for the NHS for 6 months.

So if you've worked there for 20 years you can have a six month holiday with 20 months pay then have your old job back. Wow!

[Mr Whippy]

TA14 said:

phil-sti said:

Wifes sister has just been through this as a band 7 nurse. They have cut the team in half (6 stay, 6 leave) and the redundancy offer was a stagering 1 months pay for every year they have been with the NHS, madness. The team can't cope with the workload they have and you have 6 nurses that will now come back from redundancy and work agency shifts as they can't work directly for the NHS for 6 months.

So if you've worked there for 20 years you can have a six month holiday with 20 months pay then have your old job back. Wow!

Expensively rearranging deckchairs is what you get when you have too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

[oddman]

Mr Whippy said:

TA14 said:

phil-sti said:

Wifes sister has just been through this as a band 7 nurse. They have cut the team in half (6 stay, 6 leave) and the redundancy offer was a stagering 1 months pay for every year they have been with the NHS, madness. The team can't cope with the workload they have and you have 6 nurses that will now come back from redundancy and work agency shifts as they can't work directly for the NHS for 6 months.

So if you've worked there for 20 years you can have a six month holiday with 20 months pay then have your old job back. Wow!

Expensively rearranging deckchairs is what you get when you have too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

It's when you have cretinously poor managers. Simply no curiosity or intellectual agility. And most importantly not listening to clinicians. Frustratingly inevitable. The generosity of the redundancy scheme was a clumsy way of preventing such short sighted stupidity.

NHS is the embodiment of the Peter principle.

[Sheepshanks]

phil-sti said:

Wifes sister has just been through this as a band 7 nurse. They have cut the team in half (6 stay, 6 leave) and the redundancy offer was a stagering 1 months pay for every year they have been with the NHS, madness. The team can't cope with the workload they have and you have 6 nurses that will now come back from redundancy and work agency shifts as they can't work directly for the NHS for 6 months.

What kind of job is she doing? NHS England is admin stuff (although there's some dispute about the overlap between admin and care) and they haven't been able to make people redundant as they didn't have the money to do it.

And is she sure the redundant staff will be brought back? The department one of our daughters in can't cope but they spend all their budget so nothing they can do about it.

[borcy]

oddman said:

Mr Whippy said:

TA14 said:

phil-sti said:

Wifes sister has just been through this as a band 7 nurse. They have cut the team in half (6 stay, 6 leave) and the redundancy offer was a stagering 1 months pay for every year they have been with the NHS, madness. The team can't cope with the workload they have and you have 6 nurses that will now come back from redundancy and work agency shifts as they can't work directly for the NHS for 6 months.

So if you've worked there for 20 years you can have a six month holiday with 20 months pay then have your old job back. Wow!

Expensively rearranging deckchairs is what you get when you have too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

It's when you have cretinously poor managers. Simply no curiosity or intellectual agility. And most importantly not listening to clinicians. Frustratingly inevitable. The generosity of the redundancy scheme was a clumsy way of preventing such short sighted stupidity.

NHS is the embodiment of the Peter principle.

I don't think the redundancy terms are sent by the NHS, more likely the gov.

[Ian Geary]

Just read the article. In a business, they would presumably spend to save, but public bodies do struggle with it when they are funded hand to mouth.

However, i have seen my share of redundancy rounds - often clearing out the over 55 dead wood and awkward gang - only for work to be brought back in later.


People blame cretinous managers, but how does NHS pay line up against large multinational mid and senior managers? How much does the NHS spend attracting the bestgraduates, and spending loads developing them?

And key: how does NHS pay and reward match the performance of the trust?

Oh yeah, it doesn't.

In terms of joined up-ness, there is a feeling in local government that the 2012 nhs reforms were a step backwards.



So in the above diagram, there is massive friction built in as councils doing social care try and get fair funding from the icb for medical care.

They are monolithic, intransigent, and basically trying to shield their budget and cost shunt. Our council will spend money it doesn't have to enable a better brokerage and discharge team, only for the NHS to hoover up savings and not share them.


Then there's the whole issue of adult social care cost shunting between councils, limit that's for another thread.

Public health was only moved into councils so the government could cut council funding and pretend headline funding wasn't reducing (I don't think dclg even fooled themselves).

Ultimately I am not opposed in principal to am up front redundancy outlay, but I am skeptical about what work the dhsc and the NHS have done to check the work has actually gone? 250 returns a month does not need a £1bn redundancy bill to remove, so there must be something more going.

So many times i see restructures base things on what senior management want people to be/ want reality to be like, and ignore what people are actually like / reality is like.


What they need is a change team to align strategic visions, roadmaps and governance

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/19xAy1JB35/

What could possibly go wrong....

[768]

Ian Geary said:

People blame cretinous managers, but how does NHS pay line up against large multinational mid and senior managers?

I don't think it matters much, with the working environments, pensions, etc, all being different I don't think you can compare. There are certainly some hefty salaries around within the NHS though.

I've applied for NHS England roles I was qualified and very experienced in, knowing the top end of their range was about a third of what I was on, and been unable to get past the initial sift. So I assume they're offering enough to get the applicants.

(I didn't actually want the role - I had an ulterior motive to get in, fix some broken stuff personal to me and get out - but they couldn't have known this).

[Downward]

phil-sti said:

MercedesClassic said:

A step on the right direction or window dressing?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3w9y9dpv5qo

Will it actually translate into improved services and reduced waiting times?

Edited by MercedesClassic on Wednesday 12th November 07:19

Wifes sister has just been through this as a band 7 nurse. They have cut the team in half (6 stay, 6 leave) and the redundancy offer was a stagering 1 months pay for every year they have been with the NHS, madness. The team can't cope with the workload they have and you have 6 nurses that will now come back from redundancy and work agency shifts as they can't work directly for the NHS for 6 months.

If shes lucky as Trusts now have to hit their CIP s and have stopped using agencies. And bank staff are classed as NHS. She may as well have 6 months off.

Edited by Downward on Wednesday 12th November 14:48

[Downward]

Folk forgetting that these redundancies will be march at the end of the tax year. So a fair amount of redundancy pay will go back into the treasury via Tax and NI.

Capped at £80k per annum so the senior managers will be getting a maximum of £160k less Tax and NI.
So really they will be taxed on around £230k for the tax year.

[borcy]

Downward said:

Folk forgetting that these redundancies will be march at the end of the tax year. So a fair amount of redundancy pay will go back into the treasury via Tax and NI.

Capped at £80k per annum so the senior managers will be getting a maximum of £160k less Tax and NI.
So really they will be taxed on around £230k for the tax year.

The written can be difficult to interpret sometimes, are you saying it's not a good deal?

[ARH]

Downward said:

Folk forgetting that these redundancies will be march at the end of the tax year. So a fair amount of redundancy pay will go back into the treasury via Tax and NI.

Capped at £80k per annum so the senior managers will be getting a maximum of £160k less Tax and NI.
So really they will be taxed on around £230k for the tax year.

But the managers being made redundant are managing this so whats the betting the payments don't go out this tax year, 1st month of next year is my guess.

[borcy]

ARH said:

But the managers being made redundant are managing this so whats the betting the payments don't go out this tax year, 1st month of next year is my guess.

The treasury will be all over this like a rash.

[lizardbrain]

I don’t know the numbers but just from guessing average service length and salary for admins, I’m guessing most payments will not be taxed

[Downward]

lizardbrain said:

I don t know the numbers but just from guessing average service length and salary for admins, I m guessing most payments will not be taxed

NHS England where Senior Senior bods are sent from the Acutes to get them off the books before retirement !

I’ve seen a fair few executives move over to NHS E when mergers happen and 2 boards become 1.

There are 4760 staff at NHS. The number on Band 9 £103k has tripled. The proportion of non medical staff on over £70k has gone from 17% to 26% in 10 years.

In 2013 10k staff were made redundant on an average payout of £43k.
A fair amount were re-employed in the NHS.

[Downward]

borcy said:

Downward said:

Folk forgetting that these redundancies will be march at the end of the tax year. So a fair amount of redundancy pay will go back into the treasury via Tax and NI.

Capped at £80k per annum so the senior managers will be getting a maximum of £160k less Tax and NI.
So really they will be taxed on around £230k for the tax year.

The written can be difficult to interpret sometimes, are you saying it's not a good deal?

I’m saying that last time this happened 10-15 years ago folks either retired because they had enough pension or got another job in the NHS. I would imagine there are some folks at risk of redundancy now who went through it back then, got a payout went back to the NHS and now will take the redundancy and retire.

[AbbeyNormal]

Downward said:

borcy said:

Downward said:

Folk forgetting that these redundancies will be march at the end of the tax year. So a fair amount of redundancy pay will go back into the treasury via Tax and NI.

Capped at £80k per annum so the senior managers will be getting a maximum of £160k less Tax and NI.
So really they will be taxed on around £230k for the tax year.

The written can be difficult to interpret sometimes, are you saying it's not a good deal?

I m saying that last time this happened 10-15 years ago folks either retired because they had enough pension or got another job in the NHS. I would imagine there are some folks at risk of redundancy now who went through it back then, got a payout went back to the NHS and now will take the redundancy and retire.

The question is were they re-hired on a lower rate

[lizardbrain]

Downward said:

NHS England where Senior Senior bods are sent from the Acutes to get them off the books before retirement !

I ve seen a fair few executives move over to NHS E when mergers happen and 2 boards become 1.

There are 4760 staff at NHS. The number on Band 9 £103k has tripled. The proportion of non medical staff on over £70k has gone from 17% to 26% in 10 years.

In 2013 10k staff were made redundant on an average payout of £43k.
A fair amount were re-employed in the NHS.

Okay, so 43k, 18,000 staff, there is no NI on redundancy payments, first 30 grand is tax-free, so approximately 4 grand each in tax, about 70 million total would be recouped by HMRC. Not bad, but it 'goes in the pot' and doesn't get back to the NHS very cleanly,. Probably isn't the kind of number that they're factoring into the decision process.