Early California - values and questions

[8bit]

With a little luck I should be in a position to acquire an early California next year. Have a few questions...

These seem to start around £50k for non-CAT examples at the moment. Are the values likely to fall any/much further or is that about as low as they'll go? Will they potentially even start to appreciate again? Are the ones at that end of the market likely to be troublesome, even with lowish miles and FSH?

I've checked the PH buyer's guide and one or two others, I don't see much in terms of common problems but perhaps some with long term experience know better? Some suggestion that they're hard on batteries?

Running costs - I'm used to thirsty cars that like to eat rear tyres, have a handle on regular servicing costs, anything I should budget for assuming a 2008-2010 car starting with 30-50k miles?

We have other cars in the household so not intending to use the California as a daily driver, plus I work from home so no commute, but if I was to do a few short trips per week do they dislike that or no issue?

I understand the infotainment unit to be fairly dated, I take it there are some options to swap that out - what do owners recommend?

Anything else I should know?

Thanks in advance

[ANOpax]

The expensive liabilities on the Calis are the roof and the DCT gearbox. Find one which has had a recent DCT rebuild. Otherwise, budget c.£10-15k for a rebuild at some point.

The Cali was the first DCT equipped Ferrari and the gearboxes weren’t adequately cooled. Combined with bad material choices (tie wraps which become brittle with heat) in the gearbox internal wiring, it’s a question of when, not if, the DCT in a Cali will fail.

As far as the roof is concerned, just check operation and alignment. Sounds obvious but worth reiterating thay as a result, you should avoid cars with any accident damage history at the back end of the car.

[8bit]

ANOpax said:

The expensive liabilities on the Calis are the roof and the DCT gearbox. Find one which has had a recent DCT rebuild. Otherwise, budget c.£10-15k for a rebuild at some point.

The Cali was the first DCT equipped Ferrari and the gearboxes weren t adequately cooled. Combined with bad material choices (tie wraps which become brittle with heat) in the gearbox internal wiring, it s a question of when, not if, the DCT in a Cali will fail.

As far as the roof is concerned, just check operation and alignment. Sounds obvious but worth reiterating thay as a result, you should avoid cars with any accident damage history at the back end of the car.

Many thanks. Regards the transmission, are there symptoms to look out for which would indicate impending failure? Do they tend to fail once any sort of specific age or mileage is reached or can it happen almost any time?

As for the folding roof, is it reasonably safe to assume that an example with a working roof at the time of purchase should be OK or is that likely to simply go wrong at some point?

[ANOpax]

The symptoms of impending transmission failure can manifest themselves in a number of ways. There could be electrical error messages and manettino failure error messages. Or sometimes, failure to change gear properly or the loss of all even, or all odd gears.

There is no rhyme or reason which will point to the time at which the DCT fails. Too much abuse could be as bad as a lack of use. The one major point which would extend the life of the components would be a car which has been sympathetically driven and allowed to cool properly before and after shutdown. Unfortunately, that’s almost impossible to prove.

There aren t usually any warning signs of roof failure but it s worth checking the smooth and proper operation multiple times and on multiple occasions and while parked on different surfaces etc.

Edited by ANOpax on Thursday 6th November 14:58

[Chris355]

I’m looking to buy a red or black Cali T privately but they don’t seem to come up much.

Does the Cali T have the same DCT issues as the early Cali?

[ANOpax]

Chris355 said:

Does the Cali T have the same DCT issues as the early Cali?

Ferrari added an oil cooler to the Cali T and by the time it came out, the brittle tie wrap problems had been identified and solved.

So a T will have a much lower chance of DCT failure than a non-T. However, that doesn’t mean that the T’s DCT won’t fail at all, it’s just likely to fail at a much later date than a non-T.

[8bit]

@ANOPax - many thanks, all useful information.

Regards the ceramic brakes - how does one know if these need replaced? Do they develop a lip like iron discs do?

[ANOpax]

8bit said:

@ANOPax - many thanks, all useful information.

Regards the ceramic brakes - how does one know if these need replaced? Do they develop a lip like iron discs do?

No lip develops. Pitting of the surface is your best visual clue. Look at the CCM section on Voicey's website.

CCM's last about 80,000 miles if driven normally. However, track use can shorten that dramatically. Each set of CCMs should also be replaced after 3 pads have been worn through. Rears have a shorter life than fronts because the ESC and TC works by braking the rear axle. There is an onboard readout of disc wear but it's algo driven and indicative rather than reliable. The only real way to assess disc wear is to remove the discs and weigh them.

[F355GTS]

I had 3 early California's a used 2009 I bought while waiting for my 2010 to be built, that car had to have a new engine because a small number were affected by a machining fault on the crankshaft. The 2010 car was faultless, so good 3 years after I sold it I bought it back, I bought a 2013 California 30 with the handling pack and tbh it was little different to the std car

in over 22k miles across all 3 the only fault I had was a catalytic converter failed in the 30 and replaced under warranty.

Much is talked about DCT failure but I've never seen it in 93k miles of various V8 and V12 DCT cars although I'm not disputing some are affected

As said a visual look at CCM's is often the best way, my experience of the Ferrari algorithm used isn't accurate with many supposed discs 100% worn being fine and others that say 23% clearly worn

One thing that's not been mentioned is engine mounts are known to degrade and worth replacing, symptoms are like a rough running engine.

Check the roof works perfectly, very expensive to put right if it fails

A 50k car will be very much entry level and probably min spec, higher miles and less desirable colour, buy the best you can and go by condition, definitely get a PPI done by somebody reputable, Tim Walker at Walkersport would be my go to

Edited by F355GTS on Friday 7th November 15:53

[Hoofy]

What's "non-CAT" mean?

BTW there's one for sale on AT that's had the roof and gearbox done. Around £55k, although it's been up a while. Maybe it's scared off people who don't know as they think it's a dodgy example because it's had the work done! https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202402136...

Oh one thing to mention - the bolts holding the discs can rust which means replacing the discs early IIRC.

Also, apparently, they prefer to be on a battery tender if you're not able to drive them everyday. If you don't, you will get random errors.

Worthwhile joining the Cali Facebook group.

Edited by Hoofy on Friday 7th November 09:46

[ANOpax]

F355GTS said:

Much is talked about DCT failure but I've never seen it in 93k miles of various V8 and V12 DCT cars although I'm not disputing some are affected

We’ve put 40k miles on 3 DCT equipped cars over a combined equivalent of 14 ownership years and experienced one failure (F12 during the pre-purchase test drive which was fixed before sale). The Cali which was traded against the F12 suffered a DCT failure 2 years after we sold it. The FF is still okay at 14 years. The F12’s DCT failed at 9 years and the Cali’s DCT failed at 14 years.

I think you’ve been lucky.

[Ferruccio]

ANOpax said:

We ve put 40k miles on 3 DCT equipped cars over a combined equivalent of 14 ownership years and experienced one failure (F12 during the pre-purchase test drive which was fixed before sale). The Cali which was traded against the F12 suffered a DCT failure 2 years after we sold it. The FF is still okay at 14 years. The F12 s DCT failed at 9 years and the Cali s DCT failed at 14 years.

I think you ve been lucky.

Luck always plays a big part in sports car ownership

[8bit]

Hoofy said:

What's "non-CAT" mean?

BTW there's one for sale on AT that's had the roof and gearbox done. Around £55k, although it's been up a while. Maybe it's scared off people who don't know as they think it's a dodgy example because it's had the work done! https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202402136...

Oh one thing to mention - the bolts holding the discs can rust which means replacing the discs early IIRC.

Also, apparently, they prefer to be on a battery tender if you're not able to drive them everyday. If you don't, you will get random errors.

Worthwhile joining the Cali Facebook group.

Edited by Hoofy on Friday 7th November 09:46

non-CAT - not previously written off by insurers.

Thanks for that link. I see mention of a gearbox sensor but not a full rebuild. I'm not quite in a position to buy yet anyway, have to sell my current car first.

Thanks also for the other tips. I've got a battery tender from my days as a Jag XKR owner, they had similar battery issues.

[ANOpax]

8bit said:

non-CAT - not previously written off by insurers.

Thanks for that link. I see mention of a gearbox sensor but not a full rebuild. I'm not quite in a position to buy yet anyway, have to sell my current car first.

Thanks also for the other tips. I've got a battery tender from my days as a Jag XKR owner, they had similar battery issues.

Unfortunately, the gearbox has to be dropped and disassembled to get at the sensor. It’s a 1 week job. Hence the expense of the rebuild is in labour, not parts.

Other failure modes of the DCT are the Shift Actuator Pack (SAP), pressure and temperature sensors (along with the aforementioned speed sensor) and driveshaft bearing seals. All of these require a gearbox teardown and rebuild.

[8bit]

Ah I see. The wording in the advert didn't make it sound like replacing the sensor was non-trivial.

[Hoofy]

8bit said:

non-CAT - not previously written off by insurers.

Thanks for that link. I see mention of a gearbox sensor but not a full rebuild. I'm not quite in a position to buy yet anyway, have to sell my current car first.

Thanks also for the other tips. I've got a battery tender from my days as a Jag XKR owner, they had similar battery issues.

Ah, I'm with you.

[M138]

ANOpax said:

Chris355 said:

Does the Cali T have the same DCT issues as the early Cali?

Ferrari added an oil cooler to the Cali T and by the time it came out, the brittle tie wrap problems had been identified and solved.

So a T will have a much lower chance of DCT failure than a non-T. However, that doesn t mean that the T s DCT won t fail at all, it s just likely to fail at a much later date than a non-T.

My brother’s Cali-T DCT gearbox failed and luckily had the Ferrari warranty that covered it, he then traded it in for his dream car, a 458 Spider and guess what, the DCT gearbox failed on that and luckily that was covered with the Ferrari warranty he had. Both were low miles and there was some sort of reason being said it was lack of use over the years but how true that is I wouldn’t know.

[8bit]

Actually, on the subject of warranty, is it possible to get a car as old as an early Cali on the Ferrari warranty? If so, is it worth having and any idea what the cost would be?

[F355GTS]

8bit said:

Actually, on the subject of warranty, is it possible to get a car as old as an early Cali on the Ferrari warranty? If so, is it worth having and any idea what the cost would be?

Max 15 years old so won't work for very early cars, V8 Warranty is around £3k+VAT and inspection fee

[8bit]

Got it, thanks - bork fund it is then.