Discussion
Hi -i'll try and keep this simple...
a new neighbour is claiming that half of our garage is on his land. The garage in question was built in 1967/8 - our house was built in 1965 and our late parents were the first to live there. My late father must have sought planning permission for this and we have plenty photo evidence of the building existing back to 1969.
A land registry search has shown that the disputed land was originally unregistered and was so in 2008, yet the neighbour has shown that another more recent land registry document showing this land to be included in their land.
It has been suggested we go down the route of historic adverse possession - build on unregistered land and it becomes yours after 12 years.
Both our house and the neighbour's are leasehold.
What's the best course of action?
Thanks.
a new neighbour is claiming that half of our garage is on his land. The garage in question was built in 1967/8 - our house was built in 1965 and our late parents were the first to live there. My late father must have sought planning permission for this and we have plenty photo evidence of the building existing back to 1969.
A land registry search has shown that the disputed land was originally unregistered and was so in 2008, yet the neighbour has shown that another more recent land registry document showing this land to be included in their land.
It has been suggested we go down the route of historic adverse possession - build on unregistered land and it becomes yours after 12 years.
Both our house and the neighbour's are leasehold.
What's the best course of action?
Thanks.
How is it included in ‘their’ land if they don’t own their land anyway (leasehold).
If you and your neighbour have different freeholders then I would get your freeholder involved.
If the same freeholder for both properties then presumably your neighbour would need permission from that person or organisation (along with changes in lease terms) before they made any changes to either property?
Most likely scenario is a mistake by the land registry (quite common I think) that your neighbour has somehow picked up on and (wrongly) assumes they can make something out of.
If you and your neighbour have different freeholders then I would get your freeholder involved.
If the same freeholder for both properties then presumably your neighbour would need permission from that person or organisation (along with changes in lease terms) before they made any changes to either property?
Most likely scenario is a mistake by the land registry (quite common I think) that your neighbour has somehow picked up on and (wrongly) assumes they can make something out of.
Foss62 said:
Most likely scenario is a mistake by the land registry (quite common I think) that your neighbour has somehow picked up on and (wrongly) assumes they can make something out of.
That seems most likely, although no doubt untangling it will involve a disproportionate effort and a stupid amount of money if your idiot neighbour chooses to get a lawyer.I'd suggest checking with your home insurance to see if you are covered for this kind of dispute.
It can be very expensive.
It takes a very long time to resolve even a simple case where the outcome should be obvious to any normal person.
Court decisions can be almost random.
The land registry can be 'not very useful'.
Hopefully the idiot will back down if you have an insurance company with deep pockets behind you.
It can be very expensive.
It takes a very long time to resolve even a simple case where the outcome should be obvious to any normal person.
Court decisions can be almost random.
The land registry can be 'not very useful'.
Hopefully the idiot will back down if you have an insurance company with deep pockets behind you.
Have you got a copy of the title deed / title plan for the land the neighbour claims to own ? That will have important info including when the land was registered to them etc.
Adverse possession is a complex process at the best of times. The 12 year thing isn't an automatic win. I believe that is the minimum time for it to be a claim. The land has to have been used for at least 12 years without the consent of, or challenge by the owner. That is a bit more complex when there is no owner. And when there is an owner, I think they get invited to respond by the land registry prior to any decision.
I'd get a copy of the tittle deed and plan first (£14 well spent), and then probably need some proper advice.
Adverse possession is a complex process at the best of times. The 12 year thing isn't an automatic win. I believe that is the minimum time for it to be a claim. The land has to have been used for at least 12 years without the consent of, or challenge by the owner. That is a bit more complex when there is no owner. And when there is an owner, I think they get invited to respond by the land registry prior to any decision.
I'd get a copy of the tittle deed and plan first (£14 well spent), and then probably need some proper advice.
Dawg said:
Hi -i'll try and keep this simple...
a new neighbour is claiming that half of our garage is on his land. The garage in question was built in 1967/8 - our house was built in 1965 and our late parents were the first to live there. My late father must have sought planning permission for this and we have plenty photo evidence of the building existing back to 1969.
A land registry search has shown that the disputed land was originally unregistered and was so in 2008, yet the neighbour has shown that another more recent land registry document showing this land to be included in their land.
It has been suggested we go down the route of historic adverse possession - build on unregistered land and it becomes yours after 12 years.
Both our house and the neighbour's are leasehold.
What's the best course of action?
Thanks.
Based on this, I think you should have a strong adverse possession claim. IANAL, but had a 3 year battle over land that allegedly been sold in the 70s in exchange for a Morris and some of the house was built on it. a new neighbour is claiming that half of our garage is on his land. The garage in question was built in 1967/8 - our house was built in 1965 and our late parents were the first to live there. My late father must have sought planning permission for this and we have plenty photo evidence of the building existing back to 1969.
A land registry search has shown that the disputed land was originally unregistered and was so in 2008, yet the neighbour has shown that another more recent land registry document showing this land to be included in their land.
It has been suggested we go down the route of historic adverse possession - build on unregistered land and it becomes yours after 12 years.
Both our house and the neighbour's are leasehold.
What's the best course of action?
Thanks.
If the neighbour is serious - you will need solicitor who specialises in this area - don't talk to any old local solicitor - it's minefield. We swapped lawyers and also had a barrister on the run up to the land registry case (in Wales at least it goes there, rather than to court, but felt very similar). Slow, painful and expensive.
I think you do need advice. I suspect now you know there is an issue over the deeds - you have to declare it if you sell. I was advised that it very difficult to get a mortgage without clear title.
I was also advised if you win adverse possession you may only get possessory title, which converts to full after 10 (?) years. Again mortgages, on possessory title are not usually given. So you will have real issue selling in the next ten years.
What is you neighbour trying to achieve. It may be cheaper to just pay him off and get him to convey it to you.
How serious is he? has he engaged a lawyer yet?
Good luck.
First up, planning permission is completely irrelevant.
1. Check the "filed plan" of your Title and the Title of the neighbour. You can get them online at the Land Registry for about £3 each.
2. Then ask the land registry to make an appropriate correction. I don't think you'll need to get within a country mile of adverse possession claim although it remains a theoretical possibility.
"Most title plans do not show exact boundaries - you usually do not need to have the exact boundaries recorded anywhere.
"You can apply to have the exact boundary between your property and your neighbour’s recorded. This is known as applying for a ‘determined boundary’.
"To apply for a determined boundary you’ll need to send:
a plan showing the determined boundary - ask a chartered land surveyor to make this
evidence that supports your application
a completed exact line of boundary (DB) form
"Send any evidence you have that justifies the surveyor’s boundary. This could include:
certified copies of the deeds to your property from before the property was registered
an expert’s report
a written statement signed in front of a solicitor, a magistrate or a commissioner of oaths
"The application costs £90. If your application is successful, HM Land Registry (HMLR) will send you a copy of your updated title plan and register. They’ll also send your neighbour a copy of their updated title plan and register.
"If your neighbour objects to your application HMLR will decide whether the objection is valid. If it is, they’ll give you and your neighbour the chance to come to an agreement. If you cannot, they’ll pass your application to a tribunal. You may need to pay for legal advice and advice from a surveyor if this happens.
https://www.gov.uk/your-property-boundaries/apply-...
1. Check the "filed plan" of your Title and the Title of the neighbour. You can get them online at the Land Registry for about £3 each.
2. Then ask the land registry to make an appropriate correction. I don't think you'll need to get within a country mile of adverse possession claim although it remains a theoretical possibility.
"Most title plans do not show exact boundaries - you usually do not need to have the exact boundaries recorded anywhere.
"You can apply to have the exact boundary between your property and your neighbour’s recorded. This is known as applying for a ‘determined boundary’.
"To apply for a determined boundary you’ll need to send:
a plan showing the determined boundary - ask a chartered land surveyor to make this
evidence that supports your application
a completed exact line of boundary (DB) form
"Send any evidence you have that justifies the surveyor’s boundary. This could include:
certified copies of the deeds to your property from before the property was registered
an expert’s report
a written statement signed in front of a solicitor, a magistrate or a commissioner of oaths
"The application costs £90. If your application is successful, HM Land Registry (HMLR) will send you a copy of your updated title plan and register. They’ll also send your neighbour a copy of their updated title plan and register.
"If your neighbour objects to your application HMLR will decide whether the objection is valid. If it is, they’ll give you and your neighbour the chance to come to an agreement. If you cannot, they’ll pass your application to a tribunal. You may need to pay for legal advice and advice from a surveyor if this happens.
https://www.gov.uk/your-property-boundaries/apply-...
Thank you so much for all the replies. Much much appreciated. Just to highlight thd issue - here's a map from the land registry showing the blue unregistered land. Our house is the lower one and our deeds bizarrely don't include the blue triangular section. Neighbours deeds show it as being part of their land but as the land registry say - it's unregistered. We have that in writing.
Edited by Dawg on Thursday 30th October 12:55
OutInTheShed said:
I'd suggest checking with your home insurance to see if you are covered for this kind of dispute.
It can be very expensive.
It takes a very long time to resolve even a simple case where the outcome should be obvious to any normal person.
Court decisions can be almost random.
The land registry can be 'not very useful'.
Hopefully the idiot will back down if you have an insurance company with deep pockets behind you.
Take heed of this 100% correct information.It can be very expensive.
It takes a very long time to resolve even a simple case where the outcome should be obvious to any normal person.
Court decisions can be almost random.
The land registry can be 'not very useful'.
Hopefully the idiot will back down if you have an insurance company with deep pockets behind you.
If you don't have legal expenses cover on your home insurance I'd be approaching this issue with an over exuberance of niceness towards your neighbour.
Very importantly - don't let him know if you do have cover and let them sort it out (lol - that won't be easy. They will try every trick in the book to get off the hook).
If you don't have cover I'd go down the very friendly, very interested in reaching an amicable agreement, but ultimately doing nothing other than being very very nice route.
Let him be the one to go down the legal blackhole.
Disputes such as this have to be documented in the TA6 form on house sale and neither of you will be able to sell if he doesn't back off until a legally binding agreement has been signed and lodged with the LR.
If you can't prove you own your own your own garage how will you ever sell the house?
Just get the Land Registry to sort this out. I had a very similar boundary/garage situation a few years back and the Land Registry sorted it out at no cost to me. They sent a team of digital satellite surveyors to log the correct boundaries. i.e. the "actual" boundaries on the ground.
Once the Land Registry situation is clear then if your neighbour wishes he can spend a lot of money trying to challenge the situation.
FWIW I doubt this would fall within legal expenses insurance unless/until there's a full tilt dispute.
Just get the Land Registry to sort this out. I had a very similar boundary/garage situation a few years back and the Land Registry sorted it out at no cost to me. They sent a team of digital satellite surveyors to log the correct boundaries. i.e. the "actual" boundaries on the ground.
Once the Land Registry situation is clear then if your neighbour wishes he can spend a lot of money trying to challenge the situation.
FWIW I doubt this would fall within legal expenses insurance unless/until there's a full tilt dispute.
By the way, if you need a plan to send to the Land Registry you can get one here for about £13. If it shows the boundary as you understand it to be then you may be away and laughing without needing to pay a surveyor to prepare one.
https://www.planningportal.co.uk/planning/planning...
https://www.planningportal.co.uk/planning/planning...
The neighbour sounds like an idiot kicking off something like this as soon as they have moved in, I would guess the new neighbour knew of the problem with the land when buying, gouged the sellers because of it and is now trying it on with you.
If they succeed in getting either the land or a payout they will sell up and disappear, the neighbour spotted an opportunity to make a few quid.
Just add, if you have a mortgage the lender will have an interest and might help with this though a potential double edged sword.
If they succeed in getting either the land or a payout they will sell up and disappear, the neighbour spotted an opportunity to make a few quid.
Just add, if you have a mortgage the lender will have an interest and might help with this though a potential double edged sword.
Edited by Inbox on Thursday 30th October 14:10
Both me and my brother inherited the house when our mother passed away 2 years ago. Our father died in 2008. It's currently being rented out to a family friend.
The current owner of next door is the grandson of the original owner. As long as i've been alive - 54 years - i've never heard of any boundary disputes between the two houses.
The current owner of next door is the grandson of the original owner. As long as i've been alive - 54 years - i've never heard of any boundary disputes between the two houses.
Just s quick additional question to you all.
Both our properties are leasehold - last year we had a letter from the company who own the land offering us a freehold deal to buy the land which we are considering.
Hypothetically, if the neighbours agent is the same company as ours - what is stopping me and my brother buying next door's land as well?
Simplistic question I know - but our land has been owned by 3 different firms over the last 15 years. Why can't we be part of that line of 'owners' ?
Both our properties are leasehold - last year we had a letter from the company who own the land offering us a freehold deal to buy the land which we are considering.
Hypothetically, if the neighbours agent is the same company as ours - what is stopping me and my brother buying next door's land as well?
Simplistic question I know - but our land has been owned by 3 different firms over the last 15 years. Why can't we be part of that line of 'owners' ?
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